P&H Baidarka Explorer^

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apex
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P&H Baidarka Explorer^

Post by apex » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:15 pm

any one have any picture of one of these and any advice as to how they handle
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Owen
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Post by Owen » Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:24 am

The Baidarka Explorer was designed by Derek Hutchinson, it has a very pronounced V – shaped hull and as it has a cutter bow and stern the keel extends the whole length of the waterline. This coupled with its Swedish form makes it quite a fast boat. The turned up bits on the bow and stern are Hutchinson’s interpretation of the bifurcated bow’s on the skin boats of the Aleutian Islands hence the Russian name; Baidarka. I’ve paddled the Dawn Trader Odin, which is the same boat without the turned up bits, for the past 18 year. It’s an expedition boat designed to carry large loads I’ve had camping kit and food for 4 weeks in mine. It’s very good at going from A to B in as straight a line as possible its not very manoeuvrable even when edged right over in a high brace turn it doesn’t turn quickly.
When loaded that deep V keel is pushed down into the water and the soft chines give it very good secondary stability. When cranked over there’s a positive feel to edging. But when empty it rides higher in the water so you’re sitting on that V shape this makes it very twitchy and the positive feel of the chines disappears. The high peak on the fore deck makes it a very easy boat to roll. This is an old design now there are more modern expedition boats around that will carry as much, are just as fast, more manoeuvrable and better behaved when empty.


Image

The orange boat in the foreground is my Dawn Trader the white boat in the background is the Baidarka.

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Post by grazie » Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:34 pm

As it happens I recently sold my Dawn Treader (which as Owen has already stated is very similar to what your considering), so there's still some pics at http://www50.brinkster.com/craziegrazie/kayak/table.htm.

All I would add to Owen comments, is that I think the cockpit design is particularly comfortable, assuming the Baidarka Explorer has the same.

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Jim
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Post by Jim » Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:05 pm

My dad used to paddle a Baidarka explorer and so did Mark Rainsley!

The main thing I noticed about it was the weight, but it is an old design so probably of a contemporary weight? Mark says they are fast, when I think of it my dad was fast in it when he was comfortable, but he did struggle in beam seas and quartering seas (can put much of it down to him rather than the boat).

As for expedition use, I can confirm that it used to swallow a huge volume of kit! Dad used to get a phenomenal amount of water (bottled fresh stuff) in it without ever looking overloaded, and I have to admit that when we shared the food out I never felt guilty about giving him more than I was taking (different story with his Romany Explorer LV). The downside is that it gets even heavier :)

I have several photos of it at home, but it only appears in the back or corner of anything I've submitted here by the looks of it - if you want I can try and dig something out?

JIM

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Post by steamstevec » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:34 pm

Hi Pete,
Try www.seapaddler.co.uk Go to the Kayaking Images link then the Boat Show gallery. The explorers shown have upsweep of their sterns cut off and rudders fitted but should give a reasonable idea of them.
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Steve
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Mark R
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Post by Mark R » Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:31 pm

Yes, it is a fast, straight-running boat. The only things I disliked were the silly 'ocean' cockpit and the apparent utter lack of secondary stability, it simply wouldn't balance comfortably on edge...reach around to grab something behind you, and watch what happens...

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Image
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jayno55
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Post by jayno55 » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:16 pm

This 1996 article may interest you:

J. Patrick, director of the P&H Company, has kindly offered me the following information:

The Sirius was designed by P&H and Derek Hutchinson together. The reason for designing the kayak was to replace the Baidarka. Over the years we had learnt everything there was to know about the Baidarka, its good points and also areas we felt could be improved. We first took the mid section of the Baidarka hull and designed a new bow and stern, the reason to reduce the kayak's chance of being affected by wind/weathercocking. At the same time the hull was widened very slightly and the flat areas of the hull slightly rounded to improve stability. A complete new deck was then added as well as the recessed paddle and new adjustable seat.

The Sirius is now available in three sizes, Sirius, Sirius hf and Sirius hf large. This has actually now changed to Sirius small, medium or large.
All three models have progressively larger cockpits with the small having a slightly smaller seat pan. The volume of the Sirius large (Sirius hf large) is approx. 345 litres.

The Sirius is now by far our top selling kayak and we are extremely pleased with it.

J. Patrick, November 1996

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Baidarka

Post by DougSmith » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:16 pm

I still own and paddle a baidarka explorer. It does have it's down sides - it's very heavy and it's very twitchy/unstable when it's not loaded. However, it is a relatively fast boat and when it is loaded I find it quite an easy boat to paddle, even in rough conditions. I've now got the best of both worlds - I built my own light weight kayak for day use because I found the baidarka too much of a chore to paddle unloaded but I use the baidarka for longer trips.

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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer

Post by MCD » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:26 pm

I paddle a Baidarka Explorer and love it. It is quick enough, picks up waves and surfs well, a dry boat, turns easily and seems stable, loads of space for camping equipment, strong build. Works for me in all conditions; mostly in sheltered Solent. Down side is it is very heavy and ridiculously small ocean cockpit. I cut the seat out and replaced it with a Mega seat, that was improvement but still not a boat for fast exit and entry. The shrinking size of the cockpit will be the main reason for getting another boat.

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EK Sydney
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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer

Post by EK Sydney » Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:27 pm

Zegul have just released a new Baidarka design which you can find around the web
Image

tg
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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer^

Post by tg » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:28 am

Image

This is a very early one. 1978 built by Seaglass, possibly before P&H came into being...?!

Tim
"I sink therfore I am".

dhobhran
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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer^

Post by dhobhran » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:02 pm

here are some pictures of my baidarka explorer i find that it is a fast boat but the initial stability doesnt exist until it is fully loaded
Image
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Image

tg
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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer^

Post by tg » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:49 pm

The stability was never a consideration for me, but the weight and manners in the wind were.

Tim
"I sink therfore I am".

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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer^

Post by sleepybubble » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:31 pm

tg wrote:Image

This is a very early one. 1978 built by Seaglass, possibly before P&H came into being...?!

Tim

Ohhh that is an early one but..... it has recessed deck fittings, I'm not sure when these were introduced but that would certainly help date it.

heres my one, which I bought from somebody off here via Ebay...

Image

Loaded for camping its cavernous, its actually quite stable, just a little erm twitchy. Makes a Nordlow feel like an oil drilling platform in terms of stability when unloaded. If you can get used to it, its quite nice (in a sadomasochistic type way). Responds well to bow rudder strokes and draws etc, but it is not a patch on more modern boats to be fair.

Mark

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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer^

Post by tg » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:13 pm

sleepybubble,

How old is your's? Earlier do you think?

Mine is easy to date. It has a label glassed into the interior. Manufactured by Seaglass under license to Derek Hutchinson 1978. Number 500. This particular boat was salvaged from a local creek by the council and stored for who knows how long. I managed to save it from the skip ultimately and refurb. The hatches are TLC4's, around 7 inches, they're not impossible to use. It has a Chimp pump, again it's err.. okay. Foredeck is moulded for recessed lines but the rear has none at all save for the ... err .. pump. Lots of stainless fittings and a cleat with a line on the rear deck running back to a hole drilled in the stern. Not good so now filled and the line runs to the toggle, still not very good. I will address that.

The boat has no skeg and while paddling in a bF4 the influence of the wind was reaallly annoying, so I rarely use the boat now, It needs a skeg or rudder. I don't find it particularly tippy or 'corky', unlike other exped. boats I've paddled (I weigh about 90kg) . I have a tendency toward E.Greenland (style) design so small cockpit doesn't bother me either.

I took her to Scotland this Summer but the weight was a bit of a hinderance. So some inland paddling and a couple of overnights. The weather wasn't too kind either and I was on my own so nothing too challenging I'm afraid. Plus, I have some old friends in the Highlands and they are always pleased to see me and the lure of the malts I have to say kept me off the water more than it should've.

Tim
"I sink therfore I am".

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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer^

Post by sleepybubble » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:19 pm

tg wrote:sleepybubble,

How old is your's? Earlier do you think?

Mine is easy to date. It has a label glassed into the interior. Manufactured by Seaglass under license to Derek Hutchinson 1978. Number 500. This particular boat was salvaged from a local creek by the council and stored for who knows how long. I managed to save it from the skip ultimately and refurb. The hatches are TLC4's, around 7 inches, they're not impossible to use. It has a Chimp pump, again it's err.. okay. Foredeck is moulded for recessed lines but the rear has none at all save for the ... err .. pump. Lots of stainless fittings and a cleat with a line on the rear deck running back to a hole drilled in the stern. Not good so now filled and the line runs to the toggle, still not very good. I will address that.

The boat has no skeg and while paddling in a bF4 the influence of the wind was reaallly annoying, so I rarely use the boat now, It needs a skeg or rudder. I don't find it particularly tippy or 'corky', unlike other exped. boats I've paddled (I weigh about 90kg) . I have a tendency toward E.Greenland (style) design so small cockpit doesn't bother me either.

I took her to Scotland this Summer but the weight was a bit of a hinderance. So some inland paddling and a couple of overnights. The weather wasn't too kind either and I was on my own so nothing too challenging I'm afraid. Plus, I have some old friends in the Highlands and they are always pleased to see me and the lure of the malts I have to say kept me off the water more than it should've.

Tim

I can't be sure of the age of mine but I would say very early, it has no manufacturers marks at all. I have had it out in F6/7 with no problems. However I know what you mean about the high windage when caught from the sides, it does require a LOT of correction (again no skeg or rudder). I have paddled with a Baidarka Explorer which belongs to somebody else up here and that is a superior boat, less upturn and it has a skeg.
I've done about 40 days in the Baidarka this year and maybe 20 days in other boats, as I said before if I was camping then I would choose the Baidarka, if we were heading out on a day paddle for fun I would choose another boat. I had a shot in a Necky Chatham 17 last weekend and I'm taking it to Skye next weekend, for the money its a very good boat. I think I'm probably saving up to buy a Nordlow, Its getting harder to use the club one now since I have been raving about it so much.

I don't have a problem with Ocean cockpit boats, I can get out onto the backdeck without falling over when in the water but it is so much easier with a big keyhole deck :)

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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer^

Post by dhobhran » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:18 pm

When did they stop manufacturing them

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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer^

Post by tg » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:12 am

I think it evolved see earlier post in this thread.
sleepybubble

I can't be sure of the age of mine but I would say very early, it has no manufacturers marks at all. I have had it out in F6/7 with no problems. However I know what you mean about the high windage when caught from the sides, it does require a LOT of correction (again no skeg or rudder

That was my concern.. if it behaved like that in bF4 then what about stronger winds? Tides around here max. at about 5mtrs but the sea is shallow with loads of sand bars and mud. So they drain pretty fast. Missing your slot can leave you a long way from the shore with (I kid you not) maybe a km of mud to traipse through. As mentioned I paddle a Tahe Greenland or Greenland T. The more research I do into traditional designs the more I am realising just how specialised native boats are.

I took the GT to Cornwall for the Symposium and we wre paddling in winds forecast between bF5 and 7, possibly the biggest swell I have been in and I certainly felt I was on the slow side with the bow pushing through the tops. On the other hand lighter guys in bigger boats looked, to me at least, like the wind was having a greater effect on them than me.

Tim
"I sink therfore I am".

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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer^

Post by sleepybubble » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:58 pm

dhobhran wrote:When did they stop manufacturing them

Referring to Derek Hutchinsons own book which by coincidence I have out from the library just now... the Baidarka got its first sea test on March 10th 1974. There is mention of recessed deck line fittings within this design, which makes my own boat 'interesting'. Perhaps I shouldn't be crashing about in a prototype and should maybe consider selling it to a museum.

Sometime in 1977 it got a remodel and became the Baidarka Explorer.

In 2001 after quote 'several design modifications later' it was totally redone and released as the Andromeda. An interesting snippet is that the length of the boats which Derek was designing in this period were no longer constrained by the maximum length of his garage.

The Andromeda does not have the upswept bow and stern and on reflection is possibly what I have paddled next to up here.

As to who was manufacturing what design and when I couldn't say. I am in no way a historian of Derek Hutchinson boats.


Mark

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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer^

Post by sanddabber » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:45 pm

Ive still got mine had it 26 years still using it and wouldn't sell it. You can by the latest version from here
http://www.cscanoe.com/web/prodotti/can ... CS%20Canoe

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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer

Post by alexdemels » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:53 pm

My story with the Baidarka is very positive.
I purchased an old Baidarka built in 1978 and I paddled it few years.
For me and my friends it performed really well, everybody wanted to buy it, I wanted a lighter version... so we asked Derek Hutchinson to put it back in production...and this was done by CScanoe.
Now I have vacuum carbon 15 kg version..a joy to paddle, it surfs like an outrigger, unbelievable easy to catch waves.
As any other boat it has downsides, the design is not modern (of course!) it is not easy to turn this boat unless you apply strong edging but for the rest I think it performs really well.
The deep V and lot of secondary stability let you paddle relaxed even in big waves.
It is not ideal for rockhopping but if you have to do exposed crossing it holds the course like a sailing yatch.

See:
restoration of old version
http://alexdemels.blogspot.com/2011/03/ ... darka.html

my new version
http://alexdemels.blogspot.com/2010/03/baidarka.html

Alex

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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer^

Post by Ceegee » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:06 am

It is nice to see a few of the old classics like the Baidarka being (re-) manufactured under licence.

I checked out http://www.cscanoe.com and they seem to have a few interesting kayaks. Their "Greenlander T "is the Tahe boat and no pretence otherwise.

Their "Greenlander 515" is in fact the Waterfield "Qaanaq 512" but that is this? http://www.cscanoe.com/web/prodotti/can ... S%20Canoe#

Their "Greenlander 550" - (550x52cm) it's not a Rockpool Underground is it?
Cheers,
Steve C. G.

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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer^

Post by alexdemels » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:50 am

As far as I know the Greenland 550 was developed by CSCanoe together with some italian paddlers which are great fan of greenland style kayaking, the cockpit is probably a little bit more roomy than other Greenland style kayaks. I know they use these kayaks in rolling competitions.
No idea about the Greenland 515, it looks also to me as very close to Qaanaaq.
Cheers
Alessandro

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Ceegee
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Re: P&H Baidarka Explorer^

Post by Ceegee » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:26 pm

alexdemels wrote:As far as I know the Greenland 550 was developed by CSCanoe together with some italian paddlers which are great fan of greenland style kayaking, the cockpit is probably a little bit more roomy than other Greenland style kayaks. I know they use these kayaks in rolling competitions.
Well it looks like a lovely boat - would love to try it.
alexdemels wrote:No idea about the Greenland 515, it looks also to me as very close to Qaanaaq.
It most definitely is: Right down to the front deck Logo sticker. I guess CS are eitherimporting them or manufacturing under licence from Waterfield. Nice to see the more dated/unusual designs still available. I see they do the full Seabird range too!

CSCanoe Greenlander 515
Image

Qaanaaq512
Image
Cheers,
Steve C. G.

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