All hands to the pump!(Long Narrative, war and peace sized)^

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Jim
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All hands to the pump!(Long Narrative, war and peace sized)^

Post by Jim » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:30 pm

A different style of trip report: Summer Isles 2005

This cross references nicely with the following thread:
How organised are you?

With our annual Easter sea kayaking trip coming up fast I thought I'd better consider if I needed anything from the chandlers etc. I soon decided on a red parachute flare (had handflares and smokes but nothing for attracting attention in the first place), some epoxy putty for my ever leaking bulkheads, some spare hatch covers and maybe a service kit for my pump.

Spare hatch covers is a job for Knoydart, but I had no time left for posting. At this point I phoned my dad - "are you going to be going into Keswick on your way past to Glasgow???", he didn't exactly bite! The alternatives were Carlisle canoes and UKcanoes in Lancaster, which is very close to the motorway, it would however be a bank holiday south of the border. Another option was presented - "some of the others are getting stuff from Knoydart on the way up, ask them if they can get it for you". A few posts on Bolton CCs forum later and I had the story! El Presidente was recovering from Leptospirosis in the lake district, various people had ordered and paid for stuff by phone with instructions to have it picked up by him on Thursday, and he would meet someone at a convenient junction on Friday. A few phone calls later and my hatch covers joined the list, and of course many thanks to El P for doing all that on his death bed (he has recovered so I can probably make that joke). Whilst on the phone I asked if dad needed anything from the chandlers - just bits to make a paddle leash.

So it was still Wednesday and I had hatch covers sorted, the rest needed a trip to the chandlers - they stay open late on a thursday so I was quids in!

Thursday went fairly well, in to work early, and by virtue or our new flexible start/finish times arrangement (not flexitime as you probably know it) I was able to leave at 3:30pm and get over to the chandlers nice and early for a good browse!

I found the clips I use for my paddle leash easily, the epoxy putty and shock cord were where I expected them to be and I picked up some cord to tie the hatch covers on too. Flares are behind the counter so would be the last thing, so it was over to the pumps. Well OK I had toured the chandlers several times looking for useful stuff first! A plethora of pumps and bits was available and hanging on the end wall were some service kits with new diaphragms and washers and screws and stuff for various pumps. First snag - the chimp came in a Mk1 and a Mk2. Easily solved, the Mk1 is octaganol and so is mine, but wait whats that price - £22? Blimey!

I staggered back in amazement - surely I was just looking at a complete pump for £15? Staggered back to the electric pumps, and sure enough there were several pumps around that price mark. Well, I was jiggered if I was spending that much on spares when I could get a new pump for less!

A voice in the back of my head started nagging "You're going to need a 12v supply in the boat you idiot, thats going to cost a packet and weigh a ton, then you have to waterproof it all"
Another voice piped up - "Look in Maplins for sealed lead acid batteries, and failing that make up an AA bettery pack"
First voice: "Don't be daft, you'll never seal a clip of AAs"
Second voice: "Put them in a plastic box, silicone where the wires come out and tape it up after screwing the top down."
First voice: "You're mad!"

The 2 voices battled over various points relating to fitting batteries, a switch and an electric pump in to my leaky sea kayak, but voice 2 won the day and I now had to look for other bits.

Improvised pump shopping list:
Pump
Switch
Battery
2A fuse
Fuseholder
Some wires
Some hose
A Skin fitting for the over board discharge.

The pump was easy, a 360 gallons per hour effort, just like Douglas' HERE but his is the slightly bigger 500gph model. Next thing, did I want a float switch (can get a kit with pump and float switch)???? No, the water shouldn't be coming up high enough for the to be any good based on my V hull and my fitting options. Can I use a float switch as a foot switch - "maybe but drop the float switch, look in the electrical section dummy!".

The electrical section yielded a nice black waterproof on off button I could fit through my deck and some suitable cable but no fuse holders - never mind Maplins was on the cards anyway. Also no waterproof connectors - looked like a job for solder and silicone sealant!

Hang on - hose and skin fitting. What size? Turn the pump package over and read the specs - 19mm outlet, means I need 19mm hose and fitting. The fittings section however didn't look so good! The only 19mm spigot skin fitting was huge - I didn't want to use that much space in my boat! I quickly revised my plan (not sure if this is B, or C or M, or X), I was going to have to use that 'T' piece to tap into my existing outlet hose for the chimp. Oooh, a consideration! If the electric pump is running could it pump water back through the chimp and into the boat as well as overboard? What about the chimp pumping through the electric pump? I was going to need some non return valves, but hang on, I could see every size but 19mm and they seemed a bit pricey! Look again - there are some el-cheapo ones loose on the display panel with stepped spigots, the middle size is 19mm - perfect (if bulky). Look again at Douglas' first photo HERE and the black thing to the left (viewers left, paddlers right) of the pump is the exact same as the non return valves I bought! Next the hoses, 19mm clear suited me, Douglas has used some orange stuff, don't know why or where from, perhaps he already had it? Now with all those joints I was going to need some hose clips (jubilee clips), I had some BZP ones suitable at home but needed more so got a couple of stainless ones.

So I struggled to the counter and laid my massive collection of items down, and remembered to ask for the flare! I paid my money, the staff got all my stuff in a bag, we exchanged a little banter and then I got back on the subway to st Enoch for Maplins. The only issue at this point was that nagging question - is the hose on the chimp that I'm connecting into the same size????

Now Maplins doesn't have the same draw as Duncan's (the chandler) or Machine Mart (lovely tool shop) but it does have a draw! I can definitely get sucked in by places selling bits to make things with!

So first up sealed lead acid batteries (appears to be what Douglas is using) - Expensive, heavy, need a charger. Look at the specs and the little ones don't have any capacity given, the medium ones are 1.2ah, and the massive heavy horrible ones are just over 2ah. But wait - NiMH AAs come in 2300 mah these days, which is also 2.3ah, 10 of them is going to be lighter, cheaper and just allround better! At 2amps I can get over an hour of pumping. But wait, I won't be able to charge on the go and don't fancy buying spare rechargeables, better to use alkalines, I only need 8, they are even cheaper (especially as I bought 30 for a fiver the other day), but what capacity? Who knows, it isn't written on them but I reckon I can get over half an hour of pumping with them and I'll be carrying spares for my GPS and headtorch etc. anyway.

Now it also strruck me that leaving all this in the boat is a recipie for disaster as i only see the boat very rarely. What I clearly needed was some waterproof connectors, as well as a battery holder and a plastic box, some grommets and a fuse holder. Much searching later I decided against jacks and there was very little else to choose from, my best option was the battery connectors for radio controlled cars - well they must be splashproof right? Quick thinking ensured I got 2 each male and female - 1 set to disconnet the entire system from the switch (which would be permanently attached to the boat) and another to disconnect the battery box to ease changing the batteries!
I then found a holder for 8 AA's and started looking at plastic boxes. Now maplins do various little plastic boxes to build electronics projects into, and some are even waterproof (didn't check the IPXX rating, probably our old adversary IPX7!), but ultimately I was going to drill holes and in the absence of proper waterproof glands being available it didn't seem worth £5 or £6, so I spent just over £2 on one with a screw lid that uses machine screws rather than self tappers - proper job! I should labour the point of how carefully I selected the box for size and reliability.

What else was I after? minor bits, grommets a few pence, a waterproof inline fuse holder from the auto section, I had pretty much everything I needed. So it was up to the counter with my pile of bits. The young lad scanned my items and put them in a bag, swiped my card, and nothing! Tried a few more times, my card was not playing the game! So it was necessary for him to enter the details manually and take an old fashioned swipe for their records, which took a good 5 minutes with occasional prompting from the more experienced lad working in the window display. This was incredibly painful to watch, the poor boy hadn't a clue and when he finally gave me my bag I noticed it was split and tried asking for another, but he was in a world of his own stapling recipts and working out what to do with them so I deposited the bag in my other bag nice and safe and went home.

Now you may be thining that all this chandlery and pumps and electrical equipment was all I needed - oh no!
After I got in I went back out to Cotswold for a few bits and pieces I'd forgotten or not decided on before, also dad was after new plates and cutlery. I opted for mess tins myself having measured all the plates and bowls and decided that only the titanium MSR bowl would fit through my 19cm hatches (I had plates from before but they never fit and end up behind my seat wit heverything else that doesn't fit through the hatches). Later in the evening I had finish the rest of the food shopping, when I had finally deposited everything on the conveyor and moved up level with the cashier she asked "You didn't have all that in a handbasket did you?".
"No" I replied nonchalantly, "I used 2". I must admit with an 18pack of beer (I'm off it at the moment hence the unusually small quantity) balanced on top of one it was quite a feat!

It was around 7:30pm on Thursday, dad was due to arrive around 9:30am Friday with my boat and then we were off by 10:00!

I unpacked the pump stuff and started laying out my electrics. I was certain that the button could go one side of the cockpit or the other, the battery box should fit sort of beside the back of my seat and the pump, well I was guessing - if all else failed directly in front of the seat. Don't forget my boat was still in Lancashire at this point!

I started workin out how long to make the wires - the cockpit area is small but better be generous, and then realised I didn't seem to have the all important box. Much searching later and there was no sign of it, that idiot lad (my langauge may have been less inoffensive) must have dropped it when the bag split, or forgotten to put it in! I found my receipt - I had paid for the box and there was a phone number but I couldn't get an answer. I checked the website - they close at 6pm most days including Thursday (twighlight zone - the time on the receipt is 18:20), which meant I could do nothing about it until the morning! I did however sort out the rest of the circuit and test it (I had a battery holder just no box to keep the water out of it.

Positive from battery goes via a fuse to the switch and then on to the pump. Both the battery and switch have connectors so they can be removed from the system (well the system removed from the switch). To test I placed the pump in a bowl of clean water and pushed the button. At this point I discovered it was not a toggle on/off button, but a hold on button - oops! On reflection though, it does mean I won't leave it on in error! The pump started and scooshed water all over the kitchen, well not quite but it is plenty powerful enough! Now with no box to fit the battery clip into I couldn't solder it's wires to the connector wires that would run through the box, and I wouldn't be able to solder them the next day - a bit of frantic searching and I found a bit of terminal block I had squirreled away years before for an emergency!

It must have been around 9pm that I went for that food run I mentioned before, after that I got a takeaway and took stock. It was then about 10:30, I had 11 hours to pack, sleep (I was exhausted), get up, phone Maplins, and then, well it depended on stuff - with luck I could get into town and back before dad arrived, otherwise we would need to stop off on the way. It was at this point that I started making packing mistakes, taking too many clothes and spare thermals and stuff that I wouldn't need. At some point I remembered to silicone my solder joints and leave to dry overnight, and sort my drill and a file and knife and screwdrivers for the pump fitting (that lot stayed in the car). I had to sort the food out into meals - not individual meals but breakfast, lunch and dinner, I wish I'd had time to do individual meals then I might have spotted the quantity issue! By 1 am I got to thinking about my GPS - somewhere I knew I had my powerbook with the waypoints file from the previous trip, I actually got into bed to back up the data in the GPS and transfer the waypoints I needed, and then went to sleep. There was something nagging me about the waypoints, I remembered eventually that on the previous trip one of them had been wrong, but I discovered it shortly before the GPS got drenched and died so I never corrected it. Of course I was afloat when I spotted this, and later another one with the same issue - oddly enough it was Mellon Udrigle but I got it sorted during the lunch stop before the bivi and long before the "where's Mellon Udrigle?" farce the following day!

So Good Friday dawned, and I slept, finally stirring in time to ring Maplins and explain the situation. The helpful girl rang back a few minutes later, the box was found and put to one side for me - excellent. Had breakfast sorted myself out a bit (like filling water containers and stuff) and waited for dad. He was a few minutes late but I was organised and the car was soon packed and we got underway, into the city centre. My next mistake was not knowing which car park was which - the boats went under the barrier for Sauciehall St multi storey but it was really tense driving up 5 floors to find a space in a long wheelbase with longer boats on that had been an inch from the height limit! I had intended to go to the outside car park but we took a wrong turn - I walk round the city centre!

Maplins were good, I said who I was and the box was handed over, excellent. Dad wanted a PC connector for his GPS but there wasn't one on display and they couldn't find the one we thought should be it despite the computer claiming they had one - wasted about half an hour, also meant I dragged my powerbook along for nothing as I couldn't transfer waypoints to his GPS without a lead (he couldn't buy an etrex could he? had to be one with a big chunky screen and a different lead - actually I really like his!). So finally around 10:45 we finally left Glasgow for old Dornie, an estimated 5 hours away.

Does it end here? hell no!

I get fidgety on journeys. I had placed my tools to hand and as we sped up the M8 and then the M80 I was busy drilling the holes in my box! Then we hit the roadworks, and the next ones and the ones after that and so on! I installed the grommets, tied knots in the wires, threaded them, tied more knots to stop them moving through the grommets and screwed them intothe terminal block. I then assembled my silicone gun, and siliconed around the grommets etc. and screwed the cover on the box. The batteries rattled. "If you feel around under that seat there should be some foam" said dad, "you can cut it up and use it as packing if you like". The stanley knife came out and the packing was made, still in the car creeping up the A80. The box was then wedged carefully in the door pocket for the silicone to dry!

The journey continued, more roadworks on the A9, and then it became clear, but caravans and wagons had got ahead of us. We struggled on stopping for lunch near Kingussie, Petrol in Contin, Tea and Apple pie and Ice creams and pop in Ullapool finally reaching Old Dornie around 5pm having negotiated the track they call a road across the Coigach peninsula with it's fantastic scenery.

So it was too late to set off for Tanera Beg, too early to pitch camp by the roadside or go to the pub. But never fear I still had to actually fit the pump into the boat!

My boat was unloaded and I looked for a flat bit near the cockpit for the switch. After much deliberation I decided on a spot on the left side about thigh level - it was flat and close to the seat so the switch wouldn't fould my legs. The other consderation was, that becasue I would have to hold the button whilst pumping, and the V hull means I need to edge the boat (flat bottom pump, the base is the inlet) as well, with my right side being my favoured side I should edge towards it and be ready with a support or scull - hence switch on left! unfortunately I don't have a 20mm tank cutter, so drilled a 10mm hole and opened it up carefully with a round file, on the side of the road at Old Dornie on a lovely evening! The button installed quite easily (with a bit more silicone for good measure!), there was enough wire to have the pump wedged under the front of the seat to the right, run the wire underneath, across under the back and up to where I was going to wedge the battery box.

Plumbing next!
First job, cut the spiral outflow hose from the chimp to put the T piece in. Not easy given the position but acheived. The hose was not 19mm, so didn't fit the T, it was too big - bummer! Hang on a moment though, the hose slipped nicely onto the 19mm hose, so problem solved, first fit a small bit of 19mm to each end of the T piece, then insert in the outflow hose having first slipped the hose clips on ready. It was tight fit and in an awkward spot but I did it. Then fit the 19mm to the T and look for a route. If the hose simply drooped to the hull from the T it would be right in the middle of my pelicase spot, I reckoned I needed to run it along the deck, then down at the seat and along the back of the seat, fitting the NR valve in that straight section before turning under the seat to the pump. This also allowed plenty of slack to withdraw the pump forward and remove the hose in order to remove the pump. The NR for the chimp was not going to fit in the outflow line, so I stuck it in the inflow and had some test pumps - it sucked fine, in fact it extended the reach a little into the slot in the foam block so the inlet no longer pops out at the slightest nudge, and is also a better shape to get into the V for better pick up. The orientation ofthe T was wrong and the spiral hose was slightly kinked - I needed to shorten it to allow for the length of the T. It wasa tight fit but eventually I got the thing apart, unwrapped the spiral a bit to shorten it and cut the strip off. This time when I wriggled the T back in I made sure the spigot for the electric pump was pointing up slightly to force the hose along the deck. Finally after an hour of knuckle grazing, twisting, wrenching, swearing. sweating, I was able to tighten the hose clips and call it a night

I now had a dual pump system, with a button for the electric pump on the outside of the boat for easy access, non return valves so they didn't fill the boat through each other and only the one overboard discharge point. The bend of the hose behind the seat was perfect for wedging the battery box beside the seat high and dry away from any ingressed water, time to pack the tools up, cook some dinner and meet the others in the pub - they arrived before us!

Now the only thing left is did it work?

Well you may have heard that the boat got away from me on the first day after landing at Tanera Beg on the flood. It's true, but that was not it's first misdemeanour. Once I had got out of the boat and was struggling for a foothold in the zone of green death a wave came in and swamped my cockpit from the rear, almost capsizing her and taking on a shedload of water - 1/2 full. The next thing I did was turn her round (rim is higher at the front and waves go over rather than in) and pump her out - fantastic, done in a few minutes, and there was not enough left in to prime the chimp with! It was later on whilst carrying someone elses boat up the "beach" that the boat made a break for freedom and I had to wade after her, luckily she didn't swamp that time round! It was observed that working in 2 teams it took us over an hour to shift 11 boats between the low water zone (where we landed and launched from during our stay) to above the high water mark. It was some ordeal!

The pump had minor use after that as the boat leaks a little (spraydeck and deck fittings I think) but that first day really proved it!

So now you have some idea why i was so disorganised and ended up with so much stuff on deck!

Should I really have attempted a major electrical project the night before setting off?

JIM
PS: Apologies for any changes in tense, I had a nightmare writing and checking all that, I chose a bad style for it!

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Post by Dave Thomas » Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:18 pm

Hope you don't design and build ships that way and on that timescale, Jim!

Seriously, though - it's a significant achievement to design 'on the hoof' like that while wandering round a couple of shops, throw together in such rushed circumstances and get it working at the end of it all - and the story will hopefully be a great (sic!) addition for the Almanac!

Dave Thomas

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Helen M
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Pumps

Post by Helen M » Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:13 pm

Well worth reading Jim - and I liked the style. Just out of interest what was the cost difference between your supa dupa bits and pieces one and an already made up one off the shelf?

Now all we need is a write up of the actual trip! Looking forward to reading it.

H - x

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Jim
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Post by Jim » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:44 pm

I can't find the receipt from Duncan's but I spent £14.01 in Maplins, the pump was £14.65 (have the packaging still) I think each NR valve was about £2.50, so assume the same for the T-piece, I think a couple of quid for the hose clips and the switch and probably nearer a fiver for enough wire to fit it into a large yacht. I also bought a couple of metres of hose at probably a couple of quid per metre, so probably around £50 all up, excluding batteries. This seems about right, I have a feeling I spent around £60 in Duncans and I bought a parachute flare and some epoxy putty, and shock cord too (so probably just under £50). A battery like Douglas' would be about £20 , plus about £15 for a charger, Alkaline AA's can be bought in bulk for £5 per 30 or thereabouts. Douglas didn't need most of the £14 I spent at Maplins though, and if you were installing as an only pump you could do away with the NR valves and T piece and replace them with a skin fitting. Douglas uses a single NR in his outlet, most setups don't and if you loop the hose up to the deck between the pump and skin fitting so at least part of it is higher than the waterline even if you dip the skin fitting when edging or in waves you shouldn't have any problems with syphoning - basically you can save about a fiver, I also spent a bit much on my waterproof button and over £6 before VAT on connectors so I could remove the system from the boat, I also bought too much hose and too much wire - it could probably be done for around £35 as a virgin installation with the switch in the cockpit (say on the battery box, with a standard inline fuse holder also in the box, and the box mounted beside the seat (velcro to hull or deck or outside face of side of seat?).

Cost comparison - How much are the self contained pumps that take 3 D cells? With that system you still need the pump and hose and stuff, depending on if you want to plumb it in or keep the whole thing loose so you can just pop the hose out of your deck whilst pumping , or even drop the whole lot in someone elses boat - how often is it actually possible to pump without rafting up and having the deck off anyway? (well more often with my system :) )

I wish we could desing and build ships this way, maybe the British shipbuilding industry would have a chance to become competitive again!

JIM

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Post by Mark R » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:53 pm

All highly entertaining - nice one Jim! - but all ultimately futile. Jim's pump, Douglas' pump...they'll all fail due to damp, probably sooner rather than later.

Hope this is constructive.
Last edited by Mark R on Sun Apr 17, 2005 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jim
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Post by Jim » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:56 pm

Thats why it's one of 3.
The pump itself is a submersible unit, it's only my circuitry that is vulnerable.

JIM

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Post by MikeB » Sun Apr 17, 2005 11:03 pm

Jim wrote:Thats why it's one of 3.
The pump itself is a submersible unit, it's only my circuitry that is vulnerable.

JIM
ALL circuitry is vulnerable to a salt water environment - one of the antipodean sites (they use electric pumps a lot) suggests replacing all the wiring etc every so often.

I fancy an electric installation akin to Jims, but I'd still want my manual ones as well.

Mike.

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Post by sub5rider » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:29 pm

MikeB wrote:[, but I'd still want my manual ones as well.
Having seen someone try, I doubt my ability to empty a cockpit with a hand-held "plunger" type pump - so I'm seriously considering a duplicate electric pump, a la Jim. Already have a couple of submersible pumps, but they're nominally 12v.....

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Re: Pumps

Post by Jim » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:06 pm

Helen M wrote:Now all we need is a write up of the actual trip! Looking forward to reading it.
Last I heard Sub5rider was working on something, not sure if it was for public release or club release though. Looking through the list of embarrassing bits he has been asked not to mention I think the report will be something like:

"We went to the summer isles and paddled a bit."

JIM

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Re: All hands to the pump! (Long Narrative, war and peace sized)

Post by TechnoEngineer » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:13 pm

(Please excuse me for "topping" an old thread)

Are there now any commercially available electric bilge pumps for kayaks? What's the long-term reliability of the DIY efforts mentioned here and in the Almanac? Are kayaks too small to consider the use of a "float switch"?

Is this the place that's referred to as "Duncans"? Would the "baby foot pump" on this page be worth considering? Which electric pump would be recommended?

http://www.duncanyacht.co.uk/showcatego ... oryID=2417

...or does the (expensive) Attwood pump here work better? (can it be switched on and off?)

http://www.karitek.co.uk/kbyre/acatalog/Pumps.html

...or would something like one of these suffice? (though the last one would consume 7A @ 12V)

http://tinyurl.com/cpk4gg / http://tinyurl.com/cqwm3u / http://tinyurl.com/cxjnhm / http://tinyurl.com/d5pcsa
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Re: All hands to the pump! (Long Narrative, war and peace sized)

Post by Jim » Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:48 pm

Yes that is the website for Duncan Yacht Chandlers, the e-commerce bit is relatively new and although Firefox reports that your data is not encrypted near the end of the transaction, the data has already been sent and was encrypted at the time - unfortunatley the people who do the payment side of the website for them don't seem to be concerned about sorting this anomaly out although it is likely to put some customers off even though it is actually OK.

The foot pump is the type used in boat galleys and caravans for hundreds if not throusands of years, my dad used to have one attached to a bulkhead but they are not that easy to use and fail from time to time, and will probably get in the way more than help.

Try some of the bilge pumps on this page:
http://www.duncanyacht.co.uk/showcatego ... oryID=2416
The Rule pumps are the ones myself and Douglas use (or used) - I think the ebay links you give show similar pumps for similar prices?

As far as I know the only easy electric bilge pump for kayaks is still the Attwood, it can be switched on and off but you need to pop the deck to get at it - with my legs in my ocean cockpit this isn't going to be very feasible at all but for all the keyhole cockpit users it is a favourite.

Long term reliability of my DIY pump:
Difficult to answer because I have improved it with a proper waterproof box and connector and also a toggle switch with a rubber cover (and I potted the back of it in epoxy), but it defintiely is not any cheaper than an Attwood in it's current state! The current arrangement is a year old, it has done 2 one week trips and a couple of day trips, actually it did a week in a canoe as well where it was rolling around more or less loose with the cable and switch zip-tied to a thwart. The waterproof connector allows me to remove the pump and battery box from the boat and store it safely indoors. Last week I only got enough water in the boat to prime it twice and it still worked fine on both occasions, every other day I just had to sponge what my feet brought on board. The 2 days where I was able to use it were the days we stopped more times so I shipped more water with my wellies than usual, I never had the cockpit full. The switch arrangement seems reliable, we tackled some good sized waves at one point and the rubber cover hasn't leaked. Other than that I can't really claim long term reliability because I don't use the boat frequently enough.

Float switches, Douglas has tried, but the trouble is that the sloshing effect tends to activate them unnecessarily, and when sloshing you may not even have enough depth to prime the pump anyway. The main reason for a pump is not really bailing the water I bring in with my feet but bailing after a major swamping (capsize and re-entry) so we don't really need it to be automatic - if your boat fills quickly enough in ordinary paddling to require an automatic bilge pump you need to land and patch it!

As for recommendations, obviously I haven't tried it, but looking at the bilge pumps on Duncan's website (linked above) the Attwood V500 looks like it might be the best of the hardwired options at the moment, 500GPH* for 1.4A
*500GPH with no head, 350GPH at 3.3 feet head, so in a kayak with perhaps 6" head I guess about 475GPH. Actually, the Rule 360 I use is based on a 2m head and I'm sure has a 2A fuse so can't be a huge amount different in terms of real performance?

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Re: All hands to the pump! (Long Narrative, war and peace sized)

Post by TechnoEngineer » Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:32 pm

Thanks for that, Jim. The only other question is whether it's better to have a pump that mounts on the floor (with the "strainer" inlet holes around the periphery) or to have an inlet hose? It looks as though most of the offerings are of the former variety. I agree that the "V500 Bilge Pump 12V (Clamshell)" looks like a good option; 350GPH @ 1.4A.

For me the purpose of the pump would be to empty out after a reentry and roll, as opposed to any leakage, and a manual switch would probably suffice.
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Jim
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Re: All hands to the pump! (Long Narrative, war and peace sized)

Post by Jim » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:38 pm

TechnoEngineer wrote: The only other question is whether it's better to have a pump that mounts on the floor (with the "strainer" inlet holes around the periphery) or to have an inlet hose? It looks as though most of the offerings are of the former variety.
It really depends on the layout of the kayak, you want the inlet at the lowest point when trimmed normally - this is probably under the seat where the best access is likely to be by a hose with a strainer on the end, but I manage OK putting the pump with built in inlet just in front of my seat.
Of course I have a chimp pump on the back with it's inlet hose tucked under the seat with a non-return valve to prevent back pumping, The outlets are joined with a Tee and there is a NRV on the electric outlet to prevent back pumping when using the chimp. This is almost certainly fully described in the original post :-)

If you use an inline pump with an inlet hose, as long as the pump is vertically located between the inlet and outlet you will not increase the head by using this arrangement, if you say, strapped the pump housing to the deckhead so it was above the outlet, the head is to the pump rather than to the outlet, but this is only likely to be an inch or so different so won't make a huge difference overall.

Have fun arranging it!

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Re: All hands to the pump! (Long Narrative, war and peace sized)

Post by TechnoEngineer » Wed May 20, 2009 12:05 am

I've finally got round to building mine - I used a Whale Orca 500 pump, from Force 4 Chandlery ("Aladdin's Cave").
http://www.force4.co.uk/4565/Whale-Orca ... -Pump.html

Circuit Diagram. The diode and capacitor protect the switch from back-EMF from the motor (pump).
Image
Image

The box I used is one of these - fits nicely behind the seat in the boat:
http://uk.farnell.com/fibox/pc-b-65-t/b ... dp/1004121

The switch is one of these:
http://tinyurl.com/qfcgq9

Other parts are from Maplin (I think these are the correct parts...)
Fuseholder : CT88
Fuse : GL96
Battery Holder : RK45 (using 10 * 1.2V rechargeable NiMH)
Cap : RA49
Diode : QL81
Terminal Block : L96A

I used a pillar drill to make the holes in the case for the wires; progressively increasing from 2mm, to 2.9mm, then 3.0mm, finally 3.1mm. 3.1mm was slightly too big; the cable entry is now sealed with mastic. I couldn't be bothered to use grommets. I did lots of filing to make the hole for the switch just big enough, it's pretty much watertight alone, but also backed up with mastic.

I use the pump for emptying out after a re-entry and roll; the outlet hose stays in the boat, and I just plonk it over the side when I switch the pump on.
Last edited by TechnoEngineer on Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All hands to the pump! (Long Narrative, war and peace sized)

Post by tommfuller » Wed May 20, 2009 11:38 am

Some very useful stuff, thanks!

Tinned wire is recommended for marine electrics. Solid wire is also less susceptible to corrosion, but is not recommended as it is less flexible and therefore more likely to break.

Cheers,

Tom.

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Re: All hands to the pump! (Long Narrative, war and peace sized)

Post by TechnoEngineer » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:23 pm

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Re: All hands to the pump! (Long Narrative, war and peace sized)

Post by GrahamKing » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:35 pm

Three pumps? I'll try and remember to come alongside Jim if I ever have a fire aboard...

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