gba sport - boat quality control

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Tourer
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gba sport - boat quality control

Post by Tourer » Mon May 26, 2008 9:16 pm

Dear all,

in 02/08 I bought a carbon Kevlar "Narwhal" from Jim Morrissey who distributes that brand in Ireland.

Faults so far:

- two of the seat rail pegs have come off - dodgy glass in, or rather simple glue.

- deck fittings are simple bolts with nuts and rubber washer plates, front deck fittings just screw on , not recessed

- I am suspicious the cockpit coaming is a litttle leaky, my spray deck isn't as far as I can see

- the hatches are not quite dry

- deck lines where simple funny bungee cord, that I could live with as changeing is easy enough.

I have just mailed the company and Jim, see what happens in a week or so.

Handling:

I failed to roll it at first but have since moved the seat a few notches forward as it is way behind the centre of gravity and doesn't allow for a decent lay back.

The trim and huge rocker makes for slamming in waves but also a low centre of gravity.

You cannot expect manufacturers to know where the point of balance is.

Now I am better at rolling, with a stick paddle no fails so far.

I think D. Wilcox said here "... I have seen poor construction and quality control on 2003/2004 NDK, P&H and Valley boats, its really rather sad. ..."

Last year I saw a brand new P&H Vela with rusting bolts.. I saw a "adventure raceing team" with new Nelo two seaters on a test paddle - massive leaks around hatches..

I am getting around a lot and could extend this list for a while.

Amazeingly most people seem to put up with crap quality.

It appears to me whatever boat manufacturer that I have come across so far - quality control is a hit and miss issue, regardless of money spent.

Coincidence or not

http://www.gbasport.com is in Poland as is the Plastex company

http://www.plastex.home.pl/

that makes the Tiderace brand and probably quite a few more, who knows.

Gbasport copy cat or "OEM" manufacturer or coincidentally similar ?

http://www.meridiankayak.com.au/Meridia ... dianSingle

This one looks similar to me, just a little wider, identical length..

But then someone told me there was a previous almost identical Swedish design, there are plenty of books about native designs anyway.

Regards

Rainer

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soundoftheseagull
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Service

Post by soundoftheseagull » Mon May 26, 2008 11:58 pm

This might sound a bit biased but having owned an Alaw Bach for 2 years I can genuinely say that the quality and back up from Rockpool has been superb.
My advantage is living locally but even taking that into account the service is impeccable.
Now that’s something I don’t often have cause to say.
Dave

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Post by geoffm » Tue May 27, 2008 12:39 am

I don't think I qualify as living locally (Tasmania, Australia) but I agree that quality and after sales service is impeccable from Mike at Rockpool. Looking at the GBA website it really appears that the Narwhal is a Tiderace boat with a different name. No mention of Tiderace on the Plastex site.

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Post by ian johnston » Tue May 27, 2008 9:23 am

The gba bNarwhal looks to be very similar to the Tiderace prototype. The "finalised" Tiderace Xcite differs in a few subtle ways (deck moulding etc). The gba website gallery seems to show two or three different variants of boat, one with oval hatches, one with round hatches and no fourth hatch and one with a fourth hatch.

As Tiderace originally used a different Polish company from Plastex to produce their boats, maybe this company are continuing to use the moulds?

Cheers

Ian

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Post by geoffm » Tue May 27, 2008 10:25 am

Somehow I don't think that is going to make them popular :-)

Geoff

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Erling
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Post by Erling » Tue May 27, 2008 1:18 pm

From what I can gather from this thread, Ian is on to something. The Gba boat seems to be moulded after the I'nuit prototype. The Narwhal is 518 cm long and 55 cm wide, the Xcite is 525/53. All I can say is that the finish of my Plastex-produced Xplore is miles from what the original poster describes.
ian johnston wrote:The gba bNarwhal looks to be very similar to the Tiderace prototype. The "finalised" Tiderace Xcite differs in a few subtle ways (deck moulding etc). The gba website gallery seems to show two or three different variants of boat, one with oval hatches, one with round hatches and no fourth hatch and one with a fourth hatch.

As Tiderace originally used a different Polish company from Plastex to produce their boats, maybe this company are continuing to use the moulds?

Cheers

Ian
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Post by ian johnston » Tue May 27, 2008 1:51 pm

Erling wrote: All I can say is that the finish of my Plastex-produced Xplore is miles from what the original poster describes.

Same for my Xcite - very high quality of build & finish

cheers

Ian

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Wenley
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Narwhal

Post by Wenley » Tue May 27, 2008 1:53 pm

Excellent news. I can clearly see room for a kayak based law practice...
http://www.onkayaks.squarespace.com/
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Post by Jon Wood » Tue May 27, 2008 2:41 pm

I asked Aled about these boats at the Canoe Expo.
It seems that GBA were commissioned to make the original "Tiderace" prototypes. However due to QA problems, Tiderace production was moved to Plastex. The GBA boats are Aled Williams designed but now built without his permission.

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Intellectual Property Theft

Post by Mark-Tozer » Tue May 27, 2008 2:46 pm

One of the issues with GBA Sport, amongst many, include intellectual property theft as they do not have a licence to build Tiderace boats but are in possession of the 2007 moulds

Pursuing them through legal channels would be quite costly and as such the only hope is that the buying public get the message that these are, in effect, just 'knock offs'

Quality control is also a huge issue so its no surprise that Rainer is reporting the problems he is

Plastex manufacture the boats for Tiderace but are not responsible for selling them, hence why there is no need to reference the boats on their website. Those who can officially distribute the Xcite and Xplore can be found here

As for after sales care, if you are a UK owner of an Xcite or an Xplore and have a quality control issue then get in touch with Toby at Knoydart or Aled at Tiderace. Aled will make every effort to ensure that problems are resolved quickly, much as he did when he was at Rockpool
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Post by rockhopper » Tue May 27, 2008 2:51 pm

Rockpool Alaw Bach... I have nothing but praise especially after a recent mishap when I was carrying my boat on the roof rack and the bow line end came loose and was run over by the front wheel of the car at about 5mph (must double check it next time).... quite a heart stopping-moment.
I have heard of boats disintigrating when this type of thing happened but rather than break the boat it exerted enough force to bend the front Thule roof bar down to (and dent) the roof of the car. Luckily the dent in the car popped back out again but the roof bar was beyond help. The only damage it did to the boat was a 1" crack in the gel coat which has been easily repaired. Looking at the roof bar I was amazed at how much force must have run through the boat to bend it so much...
Very, very impressed with the quality of the boat.

Rog.

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Re: Narwhal

Post by Tourer » Tue May 27, 2008 5:28 pm

Wenley wrote:Excellent news. I can clearly see room for a kayak based law practice...
Senor,

indeed there is a lot of stuff that one could look into from a legal and product safety point of view - for starters look at http://www.ckmer.com and the French safety regulations as for secondary buoancy and safety kit.

But I think it might be more effective if the customers where more aware of the going ons. That means, in my view, that quality control is hit and miss with most brands, except small independent makers perhaps whose personal reputation is linked to the product and who target a more educated audience.

Yes I thought long and hard about the Rockpool but 400 miles one way and no local dealer or courier in case things go wrong - I hate driving, doing often >1000/week for my job. NDK Explorer or HV considered - I was in that neck of the woods last summer and they told me they had no demonstrators, all on courses. You hear about NDK quality issues from all over... Jeff Allen went to South Georgia with a leaky cockpit coaming, as he said on his website, what a courage !

Then I wanted for various reasons a carbon boat, not available with Rockpool, and the hull of the gba looks fairly well made, no open glass mats inside collecting salt water, it is just the details that fall off.

2695 £ for a Tiderace Made in Poland and no local dealer around ?? Sorry, not with me, unless they provide a pick up and replacement warranty.

My previous boat was a P&H Quest that had a cracked seat fitted too low , I noticed that incidentally when I fitted a strum box, if not it would eventually have rubbed through the bottom.

A number of calls later I got a new seat that didn't fit.. Hard enough to get hold of a technician, really asking too much for an apology let alone some plan to get it right within a warranty period for UK made boat..

The skeg wire kinked early on as is common with P&H - they told me to get a spare from my dealer...

With that experience in mind I thought I might as well wave UK makers good bye, t he next boat will be DIY or made to order to my specs and designs.

Regards

Rainer

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Re: Intellectual Property Theft - bid from builder

Post by Tourer » Tue May 27, 2008 10:40 pm

Mark,

..."Tiderace boats but are in possession of the 2007 moulds

because you or Aled gave the mould to them.

How much do you pay into the Inuit Heritage fund, is that not where all the designs come from, as well as the original name ?

Tiderace is just a trade name/label, Plastex a manufacturer in Poland, as far as I can see there is no product back up in the UK other than the Knoydart shop in Keswick/Cumbria, and that is a very long and daily more expensive way for many.

Brands like Rockpool, Grabner, Skim kayaks, Longhaul folders came and went with Knoydarts in the last few years. Do they provide product support/repairs and spares for all those brands they had in for a short while ?

We can reasonably assume that Tiderace goes the same way if business targets aren't met but maybe posh people will look at a boat for 2695 £ as a seasonal must-have toy and will soon rush to get one.

People who work for their money will think twice I believe before spending 1000 £ more than needed for a new sea kayak, since Rockpool and NDK are ~1700 £.

http://www.thomassondesign.com/entry.aspx?id=113

This will be my next boat, Freya used it as a folder version, so why not me.

The cost of materials for a Skin on Frame is ~200-300 £, plus about 40 hours work.

Any bidders to build it ?

or take some inspiration here:

http://www.yostwerks.com

Rainer


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Erling
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Post by Erling » Tue May 27, 2008 10:57 pm

Noted. But ... you seem to be unhappy with your GBA kayak. I am quite happy with my Tiderace. For me, the joy of high quality lasts longer than the joy of a low price. And I have to work for my money too.
Your next boat looks exciting though!
The older I get, the better I used to be.

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Mark R
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Re: Intellectual Property Theft - bid from builder

Post by Mark R » Tue May 27, 2008 11:02 pm

What stupid comments.
Tourer wrote:maybe posh people will look at a boat for 2695 £ as a seasonal must-have toy and will soon rush to get one.
My own boat costs over 2k - and you're absolutely right, I only bought it as a fashion accessory to adorn my Bentley's roof.
Tourer wrote:People who work for their money will think twice I believe before spending 1000 £ more than needed
I work harder than colleagues and seek promotion and higher wages precisely because I want to buy better toys than them. I'm simplifying things, but this is how capitalism works.

Why shouldn't Aled (or whoever) charge more for his boats? If there is a market for higher spec gear, then he will thrive. If there isn't, he won't. Market forces, and all that. Good luck to him.

One thing that has probably held our sport back in the past is vanilla gear - pretty well the same stuff from the same few manufacturers for the same price. This sort of industry basically breeds bland products that all look and feel the same. Now we can choose from a wide range of manufacturers, budget boats right through to high-quality expensive boats ... and that's without factoring in the plastic revolution and touring/rec boats etc. We have more choice than ever before as a result, and the manufacturers have to try harder.

Take a look at the sport of mountain-biking. No one is whining there, just because some bikes dare to cost more than others.
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Jim
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Re: Intellectual Property Theft - bid from builder

Post by Jim » Tue May 27, 2008 11:57 pm

Tourer wrote:Mark,

..."Tiderace boats but are in possession of the 2007 moulds

because you or Aled gave the mould to them.
It is impossible to get a manufacturer to produce samples without at least loaning them a mould.

The way moulds for FRP products work, once you have one in possession it is trivial to duplicate it.

Duplicating a mould that was loaned, or keeping a trial mould does not mean you can ignore intellectual property and produce the product without obtaining a license from the designer.

Unfortunately this is the reality of getting products manufactured cheaply abroad. In many cases it is too costly to pursue legally (internationally) and in others subtle changes are made that would wrap a legal team up in years of work trying to prove to people who know nothing of the industry. the process, etc. (the jury) that intellectual property has been infringed.

It seems to be the case that the price for products from Chinese factories is low because they fully intend to produce and market your product in other territories directly, and in fact, they can produce them for much less. Sometimes other people find these products and start distributing them in the original territory for a fraction of the price of the original product - leaving the designer wondering why he is paying so much for the genuine article.

Recently a mould (plug I seem to recall) appeared on ebay - Malcolm (Mega) recognised it immediately as one that he sent for disposal some years earlier, clearly the disposal company had decided to make a buck on the side rather than destroy it as contracted, and eventually it surfaced on ebay. I'm not sure if he pursued it or not. Very difficult to definitively prove something that you can recall fairing by hand was faired by you and is therefore your IP several years down the line.

None of these things are right, but they are now a common reality of manufacture. Wenley's offer was not about protecting your consumer rights, but about protecting the rights of the rightful owner(s) of the IP. Something you seem to care little for?

You have very little reason to expect that a knock off manufacturer will be able to provide customer service. They do not have the expertise of the designer to tell them what they are doing wrong or how to improve their product. Still you can save a bit of money if you are happy to remedy the problems yourself.

It's a wonder anyone bothers to invent anything with so many people prepared to rip them off and others to support the rip offs.

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Post by Mark-Tozer » Wed May 28, 2008 12:28 am

You make some interesting points Rainer which I thinks are as much of a reflection of your attitudes as a consumer as they are of the situation in hand which I thought was about boat quality

We should all acknowledge the heritage of the boats we paddle and I look forward to the day with interest when the people of the Arctic nations rise up and ask for their cut of the royalties

In the meantime, everyone who has legitimate cause to build boats should do so whilst acknowledging the fact that without designs provided by talented individuals they wouldn't have a product to manufacture or sell

For the record, Tiderace Kayaks is a company in its own right with two dealers in the UK, Knoydart in Cumbria and Waterborne in Cornwall. With boats designed by Aled Williams and built to a high standard under licence by Plastex in Poland

GBA Sport did have the licence originally but that was withdrawn due to their consistently poor construction quality. Despite polite requests they refuse to give back the moulds which were indeed given to them on an initial trial when Tiderace was in its infancy

Tiderace Kayaks can offer the same product back up as any other UK based kayak company and yes, sometimes the customer has to wait or even travel to get an issue resolved but it does get sorted. A situation that is mirrored by most other suppliers

I do not work for Tiderace but support their efforts and paddle an Xcite with pleasure as do my students when they try it out

So it would appear you want a top-end boat for a bottom-end price with assured customer service afterwards within striking distance of home

Tiderace boats come in three construction types: Classic, Hardcore and Carbon-Pro which incur an incremental cost.

The price for a Classic build is £1895 which is within a similar price range to Rockpool, Seakayaking UK, P & H and Valley

The price for a Carbon-Pro build is £2695 which is also in a similar price range to P & H and Valley

I think that offers something for everyone with deliveries by arrangement

God speed with your own SOF building endeavours which will no doubt be far more rewarding, cheaper and personally satisfying as you can apply your own quality standards directly to the final product
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Post by MikeB » Wed May 28, 2008 7:54 am

Mark-Tozer wrote: So it would appear you want a top-end boat for a bottom-end price with assured customer service afterwards within striking distance of home
It would seem so - clearly he bought cheap. And got cheap. I'm unsure as to how buying an almost unknown Polish made boat from a retailer in Ireland when one lives in Portsmouth aligns to his desires as a consumer though.

Does he expect to find a Tiderace / P&H / NDK / whatever dealer in every town?

Mike.

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Post by al27 » Wed May 28, 2008 9:07 am

http://www.thomassondesign.com/entry.aspx?id=113

This will be my next boat, Freya used it as a folder version, so why not me.

The cost of materials for a Skin on Frame is ~200-300 £, plus about 40 hours work.

Any bidders to build it ?
I've been looking at building one of these for a couple of years now. Its not SOF, but ply/epoxy, and think more in the ballpark of 80 to 100 hours at £18 an hour, and add 140 euros for the design rights (materials is about right), but sure, I'll build you one. It'll be one of the best looking boats on the south coast.

Al

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Post by Tourer » Thu May 29, 2008 1:13 am

Al,

that sounds good, why don't you start doing the Black Pearls or variants of the Anas Acuta - seakayakingguidebook has a free plan for ply design ?

I was very attracted to your Seaking revival - until I saw it - way too big for what I wanted.

Very reasonable price. Looked well made.

"The cost of materials for a Skin on Frame is ~200-300 £, plus about 40 hours work. "

Any bidders to build it ? [/quote]

I've been looking at building one of these for a couple of years now.

So why not doing it ?

"Its not SOF, but ply/epoxy, and think more in the ballpark of 80 to 100 hours at £18 an hour, and add 140 euros for the design rights (materials is about right), but sure, I'll build you one. It'll be one of the best looking boats on the south coast."

More importantly something that fits the one who wears it, as a pure day and rolling boat, weighs about ~ 15kg and should go like a dragster ;-))"

Got my plans.

I tried the very similar Skim Dex, felt tippy, thought I fall in as I took off but that changed after 3 strokes, wavelets just flattened, hence the name, no skeg needed - no longer for sale in the UK..

Since then I think have gained a few skills I believe...

http://freyahoffmeister.blogspot.com/20 ... chive.html

http://www.kajak-umiakundco.de/willkommen.html

He says he makes a boat to measure for ~2000 €, without specifics, or book a building course.

So here we are with another "Direct to consumer" craftsman.

As for my gba - shame on me, yes I knew I was taking a risk with that one.

But no, spending a lot of money expecting a good product from a manufacturer doesn't always work out, let alone customer support if things go wrong unfortunately - that's why I quoted D. Wilcox complaining about quality issues.

The only way out of that problem is either DIY or trace the product to a trustworthy workman - one way or the other "Do it as the natives do".

When I was new to the sport and in the market I did a lot of running round:

- MEGA had a attractive end of season glass boat offer with skeg and expected me to buy it off the peg without trying, hmmh ... ?

No dealer that had him at that time... ?

- P&H Capella PE - seen them on a course, all with kinked skeg wires, some warped, heavy++ - no thanks

- Prijon PE - built like a tank and weighs as much - fine as a indestructable club boat. They have light boats as well, but not in the UK.

- a lot of others I simply didn't fit in

- Lettmann Eski 550 Diolen model, Made in Poland as far as I know - the sales person got pale when I sat on the aft, fast on the flat water, but needs a "optional" rudder while at first looks like a very good price...

There are a lot more Lettmann models but mostly only available in Moers "Made in Germany", mostly large volume and at a different price tag.

- I ended up with the P&H Quest ex demo, with compass, reinforced keel strip, external seems, looked stunning, way more expensive than a very similar Kayaksport because the dealer said he had little trouble with this top class manufacturer he imports himself from and I thought better re-sales value as well.

No leaks in a few years, but no customer support worth the name of as I wanted a spare skeg and some advice how to change it. Was a nightmare.

It turned out way too big a boat and cockpit even for me. Easy to get in, even easier to fall out if you roll it, slipped the knee under spray deck and pop more than once.

Now they do the "LV" but there is more choice in the market, too.

Put foam knee hooks in which helped a bit.

I replaced the fiddly nonsensical foot pegs so common with many boats with a foam block - out came the front bulk head - reinforced that with plenty of glass - what a messy job.

Then I tried any boat I could get in and found hard chined works best in waves and following seas.

NDK doesn't want individual customers is the way I see it.

Karitek is the only dealer outside Anglesey that I know of, no dealer on the UK South Coast - for what reason ?

P&H Bahiya gives me jitters.

NDK Explorer worked immediately in waves and following seas without skeg but uncomfortable cockpit. HV too big. Rockpool Alaw too boxy/too big. Bach fits.

With all the running round, money and time spent a "made to Measure" boat would have been far more economical and enjoyable - provided you know what you want and how kayaks work and what size of boat and cockpit you need.

regards

Rainer

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Post by al27 » Thu May 29, 2008 7:15 am

So why not doing it ?
Because a day, unfortunately, only has 24 hours in it!!

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Post by CaptainSensible » Thu May 29, 2008 7:32 am

I bought my boat when Rockpool were still Mike + Aled and selling through Knoydart, but getting service & spares (lost a day hatch recently) directly from Mike has been easy; the boat has been fantastic too.

I met someone at the Jersey Symposium (still on at the moment - going to the Ecrehous today, but not everyone is staying for the full week) who swapped a Nordkapp for a Wilderness Systems Tempest (best plastic boat available I think) and has never looked back; the Nordkapp was just too uncomfortable/cramped for him. I bought my boat because of its ergonomics.

Quality issues aside (and it can't be the case that all of the boats from the UK majors [Valley, NDK, and P&H/Pyranha] have quality issues), I would find it hard to buy a not-from Rockpool or Tiderace or Wilderness Systems boat (if I wanted plastic) unless it was a Nordkapp, and I could only justify that on aesthetic grounds...

... I got a chance to look at (but not paddle) RTM's (France) latest composite sea boats this week and things are moving fast... triatex fibreglass... no seams... eva foam lined cockpit for insulation and bouyancy... nice paint job... link... another link... a lot of the offerings from the 'traditional' builders are looking very old...

(nothing wrong with traditional/basic construction; two or three layers of CSM plus one of woven glass is tough and easy to fix, but that doesn't mean that hulls & outfitting & hatch numbers/locations cannot be improved)
Last edited by CaptainSensible on Thu May 29, 2008 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Tourer » Thu May 29, 2008 7:41 am

[quote="CaptainSensible"]I bought my boat when Rockpool were still Mike + Aled and selling through Knoydart, but getting service & spares (lost a day hatch recently) directly from Mike has been easy; the boat has been fantastic too.

Agree, should have bought a Bach, no other choices in the UK really.

Carbon ?! I have seen a lot of old and very old glass boats that seem to gain weight over time. That's why I wanted carbon.

Been to Jersey, great place to learn paddling, if only one could avoid Condor Ferries.

Agree to all of the others said, in particular Nordkapp.

New is not always better in the Kayak world - au contraire.

Suggest read Cunningham or any other book, even if you don't want to DIY, helps to understand matters.

Got to work now

Thanks

Rainer

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Post by CaptainSensible » Thu May 29, 2008 7:56 am

Older fibreglass boats can be heavy because the builders were being somewhat conservative with the material. A couple in our club paddle some very early Nordkapps and they are very heavy, but the newer/later versions are not as heavy.

Most people who help me carry my boat express surprise as to how light it is; fibreglass will never be as light as carbon (unless you buy some single layer thing from Malcolm/Mega!), but it shouldn't be difficult to find a fibreglass boat that weighs less than 25 kilograms.

(if you do end up with an Alaw Bach, consider the skeg option; they tend to weathercock a bit in following seas/beam winds and that can be a bit of a pain/tiring during long open trips)

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Post by Mark R » Thu May 29, 2008 8:50 am

Tourer wrote:should have bought a Bach, no other choices in the UK really.
That is (obviously) yet another silly disposable comment, but regardless ... weren't you sounding off earlier about expensive boats bought as fashion assessories?

Alaw Bach - designed specifically as a boat for short trips involving lots of playing and surfing, and very good at this. Actually bought in the main by people who don't primarily use it for playing and surfing, one possible reason for which is that it looks lovely and spangly on a roofrack.
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Post by soundoftheseagull » Thu May 29, 2008 9:48 am

Mark R wrote:
Tourer wrote:should have bought a Bach, no other choices in the UK really.
one possible reason for which is that it looks lovely and spangly on a roofrack.
Mine actually blends in, I have pimped my ride to match along with all my clothing it’s on MTV next month!!!!

Vote with your feet and walk away from copies if you’re not happy.
Such must happen all the time within and out of the kayaking industry.
How many drive Nissans copies?
Now must get on more glitter to put on my face see you lovie’s xxxx
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Jim
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Post by Jim » Thu May 29, 2008 1:28 pm

I have to agree that the infrastructure for trying before you buy is generally quite poor in the UK. If you live near a supplier/builder, often no problem, but otherwise very difficult. Symposiums are probably an option but do you really know who is going to bring what and if you will get a chance to use it? What we need is some manufacturers or suppliers to get together and put on a roadshow touring the country, using venues with somewhere to try the boats out. I think given that it is a bit of a niche industry and with fuel costs through the roof, such a thing won't be viable :-(

Jim

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Post by Owen » Thu May 29, 2008 2:37 pm

Kari-tek do attend symposium and run demo days, in Scotland anyway. They are agents for NDK (or what ever its called now) Rockpool, P&H and another (could be kirton?). Plus they will hire you a boat to try at other times. If you buy they take the hire charge off the price of the boat.

Knoydart do demo days.

Brookbank and SPS will hire you a boat to try, again the cost comes off if you buy. I don't think thats bad service considering once used the boat looses value.

Tourer
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:15 am
Location: Hamburg

Post by Tourer » Thu May 29, 2008 6:15 pm

Dear Jim and Owen,


all true as for symposions and sale shows, and the reason why I went to the Coventry show where I met Jim Morrissey with boat.

Knoydart doesn't come anymore down south for shows/demos.

A local boat shop allows only "trials" on their duck pond. Well...

I have seen the end of conventional glass lay ups in Coventry, but first this stuff goes into Lamborghini-Vorsprung wing mirrors and then greetings to Colin Chapman's Lotus concept - tougher than PE, lighter than Carbon. The one litre car/100km comes out of mothballing !

Once kayaking becomes a market these people will take care of it and send some of their quality managers.

The reason I was so keen to get a boat then was a forthcoming trip to Britany since a trad. and standard symposion WITHOUT dealers present was on - so people meet and share skills , news and knowledge as was the case 2006. Unfortunately cancelled last moment.

http://www.Ckmer.com

This years follow-up int. meeting in Anglesey is cancelled ;-((((

I wrote what I did so far, admittedly a bit provocative at times, believing there might be more fools like me who do all the running round and worst of all listen to sales people and read glossy misleading manufacturers magazines and catalogues. Nonsense like "suitable for 40-150 kg people, day trips and expeditions"... while not even being able/willing to provide information about the volume or the length/displacement at designed waterline.

If I hadn't taken out that seat in the Quest it quietly would have rubbed though the bottom until it suddenly fills up...

No surprise those with a business or personal interest in Tiderace responded a little angry, although I should in some ways help their sales, some praised Rockpool but no one came to the rescue of the "Big 3" so far, coincidental or not.

Why buying Tiderace Made in Poland in the UK while Rockpool models are near identical/from the same designer and have a track record here is something I still haven't understood. A careful (and herein lies the problem) hand lay up is probably just as good as vacuum bagging. That is not a new technology, the Double Dutch people love it.

I suggest to read Cunningham and/or any other arctic boat book, look at what Brian Shultz and Hakola Dippel, Bjoern Thomasson et alt do, since then it is easier to understand how to size up a boat and paddle and how it all fits together, then go and see a boat builder or start off with a stitch and glue or what rather than spending thousands of £ for dodgy quality that worst doesn't fit and may kill you.

I just started useing my Cedar stick - and hey rolling gets easier and far more reliable. 12 miles at 3-4 knots no problem.

Freya started with a Kayaksport boat as an alternative to a pram, then Black Pearl and stick, and uses that as a teaching tool. So maybe I'll get one day all rolls going as well ;-))

I just met someone who is new to the sea but has good river skills.

Started off with a Easky PE, 600£ or so, soon ditched that, now has a 18 foot soft chined boat made in some eastern place.. For the price of both he could have had something tailormade (?) - if anyone was around to do that and advise...

Regards

Rainer
Owen wrote:Kari-tek do attend symposium and run demo days, in Scotland anyway. They are agents for NDK (or what ever its called now) Rockpool, P&H and another (could be kirton?). Plus they will hire you a boat to try at other times. If you buy they take the hire charge off the price of the boat.

Knoydart do demo days.

Brookbank and SPS will hire you a boat to try, again the cost comes off if you buy. I don't think thats bad service considering once used the boat looses value.

ian johnston
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:36 pm
Location: Aberdeenshire

Post by ian johnston » Thu May 29, 2008 7:34 pm

Rainer,

Both Knoydart and Rockpool were present at CanoeExpo in February; in fact that's where I ordered my Tiderace boat.

I wasn't sounding angry, just pointing out that I'm very happy with my boat, as I'm sure is Erling. I saved for a long time for my boat, and stretched myself a little further to buy a premium product. The choice between Rockpool and Tiderace was a close one, ultimately I went for a Tiderace Xcite "Hard Core" construction, the mid range with lots of carbon, but not as light (or expensive) as the full carbon layup. This wasn't because it was more spangly or had better kudos than any other boat, but rather that it was the best boat for me, fulfilling everything I was looking for.


Cheers

Ian

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