Deck lines

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chris
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Deck lines

Post by chris » Mon Oct 27, 2003 7:57 pm

Aren't they usually a bit too thin as supplied? Its often said that rope needs to be at least 8mm in diameter not to cut into a person's hand.

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MikeB
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Deck Lines

Post by MikeB » Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:01 pm

What do you want to be able to do with the deck lines?

chris
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Deck lines

Post by chris » Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:56 pm

Basically I just want my deck lines to provide hand holds for swimmers and rescuers.

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Douglas Wilcox
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Deck lines

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:05 pm

MikeB>What do you want to be able to do with the deck lines?

Here are some suggestions:

Securing firewood,
www.gla.ac.uk/medicalgene..._22soj.jpg
I know Mike does this as well; should be part of any assessment of essential sea kayaking skills.

Securing advertising hoarding on sponsored trips:
www.gla.ac.uk/medicalgene..._11soj.jpg

Securing a 4 pack to keep it cool in the water on hot spring days.

Securing sticky black plastic and detergent bottles for "here's one I made..." games on stormbound days.

Securing puffins to stop them flying off before the barbecue is lit properly.

Securing a sale of a £1600 pound boat because a £500 boat doesnt have them.

Lots of uses really.....

Douglas


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Douglas Wilcox
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Deck lines more seriously

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:50 pm

In Australia you might not be allowed on some club paddles if your deck lines are less than 10mm. They have a different outlook and place great emphasis on minimum volume cockpits, hands free pumps etc.

users.senet.com.au/~pcarter/rescues.html

After looking at some of the links from the above site, I have fitted a foot operated battery pump and have reduced the volume of my cockpit. A standard Quest cockpit is 150 litres, substantially more than the <100l Australian recommendations.

My deck lines remain as standard with the exception of a 10 mm painter which runs from the bow to a cleat on the foredeck. You can see it on my friend's boat:

www.gla.ac.uk/medicalgene..._11soj.jpg

This allows a towline with a snap shackle to be thrown to the person needing a tow and then fixed by him/her. Both the tower and the towed can release this system.

About 2 months ago, I received an email from a gentleman who CLAIMED some association with the BCU:

"Many of the photographs on your website are dangerous, they show a non standard, unsecured deckline. You should remove these photographs without delay as they pose a risk of drowning to anyone who unwittingly copies them in the mistaken understanding that they are BCU approved."

Needless to say I have not removed any photographs. Neither do I know whether he has managed to get out more or if he managed to find the destination which I suggested he visit, as he has not been in contact with me since.

Douglas
:eek

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MikeB
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Lines

Post by MikeB » Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:55 am

Douglas has it spot on with the refs to the Aussie paddling & rescue/safety techniques (and indeed the same holds true for the Tassie and Kiwi's as well). Its certainly VERY interesting to read the comparisons between the Yank approach to paddling and those from "down under" :D Widely different paddling conditions generally of course.

Returning to these humble shores, it is indeed true that a thicker line is easier to hold. On a personal basis though I've never encountered any difficulty or discomfort when doing rescues with the lines fitted as standard to Valley, Nigel Dennis, Shoreline and P&H boats. No experience with others.

To put it into context though, I find most of the effort/pull when raising the bow to empty it in a rescue situation is applied thro the toggle. If I am having to use the deck lines to assist, I'm not applying much pull.

Certainly when pulling myself from the water as a swimmer I dont find the lines too thin.

As the lines aren't intended to be used to lift the boat (not on land - only to a degree in the water)anyway, that shouldn't be an issue.

I suppose you could always change them if you felt they were too thin.

The Aussie "rules" on acceptable kit, boat outfitting etc are interesting - I'm unsure as to whetehr I like the idea of compulsion and much prefer recommendation and suggestions as to best practise. Perhaps if I was regularly paddling massive seas in force 6 gales I might have a different approach :p

That said, perhaps someone who doesn't have the necessary outfitting and equipment shouldn't be out in those conditions anyway.

Mike.



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Jim
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Re: Deck lines

Post by Jim » Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:16 pm

"Basically I just want my deck lines to provide hand holds for swimmers and rescuers. "

I guess it depends on conditions.

If it's fairly calm and the swimmer is just holding it to prevent him/herself from drifting away, or the rescuer is holding on to stop the boat drifting away the standard 5 or 6mm stuff would not be a problem.

If the boats are getting thrown up and down by big waves or trying to drift apart by strong winds, you might appreciate thicker line - but wouldn't there also be a danger of hand entrapment if the boat rolled or rotated, leading you to handle it by the toggles in preference?

I guess it's one of those things we only really ever find out when we encounter the situation where it doesn't work. I suppose I could bore out the recessed fitings for my decklines to take a large line (think I have 6mm) but anyone using topcleats will be limited as they can only accept about 5 or 6mm line (I have retrofitted topcleats for my elastics).

As for securing all sorts of loads to your deck lines - it's up to you but I see them primarily as an aid to staying with the boat in a rescue and as such I don't like to occupy them with too much other gear/lashings. That said a few choice items do get lashed to points along the rear deck lines from time to time (the spare pump used to have it's hande under, and if I carry a dry bag on the deck the lashing will inevitably go round the deckline at some point - I try and keep it near the recessed fitting, which is already a necessary obstruction). Generally I try and arrange elastics or alternative cleating points in areas I might want to lash extra stuff to to try and keep the deck lines clear. In fact it would be fair to say my boat is now festooned with topcleats and elastics, even my towline lives in an old bum bag stuffed under some new elastics behind the cockpit (with the free end threaded through fairlead and cleat ready to go).

Getting back to the thin vs thick line thing - for many years other river paddlers scorned my flat pack palm throwline with its nasty 5mm line and kept telling me I couldn't use it because it would cut into a swimmers hands. (Note that Palm have rebranded it as a belay line and not a throwline!). I never once received a complaint from any swimmer that they hadn't been able to grip the line, or that it had cut into their hands, because lets face it, when your hands are cold you can't grip any line properly (and in the case of a throwline they end up at the bag almost every time anyway) but something is better than nothing! I have proper throwlines now by the way!

JIM

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MikeB
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Paddling polis

Post by MikeB » Tue Oct 28, 2003 6:25 pm

Douglas tells us "About 2 months ago, I received an email from a gentleman who CLAIMED some association with the BCU"

Hmmmmmmmm - now who could that have been - - -

You were right to ignore his request - seeing as how you paddle in Scotland, only the SCA can seek to impose itself on you :rollin

Not that they ever would of course - which is nice!

Anyway - now that the mystery of your double pump outlets has been solved - - - I'm interested in how you integrated the battery operated pump, foot control etc etc etc etc.

I dont' suppose you would be able to take any pics to illustrate the set-up, or is that a silly question ? :rolleyes

Mike.

(Quest-less at the moment, seeing as how P&H are performing surgery on the leaky rear hatch rim. And doing one or two little mods for me.)

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Jim
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Re: Paddling polis

Post by Jim » Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:34 pm

Mike B wrote: "And doing one or two little mods for me."

Sponsons?

By which I mean adding extra volume by way of side tanks for Mikes reportedly (by his own reports) large deadweight, rather than some dodgy concept in self inflating disaster causing devices which I don't consider sponsons at all from a technical point of view.

JIM

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Douglas Wilcox
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Deck lines and pumps

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:24 pm

Hello Mike, I will take a photo of my Attwood pump installation. It has a rubber button on the side which I push with my foot. Those pesky Antipodeans have managed to wire a deck mounted switch with waterproof wires.

www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/...uster.html

Douglas :)

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Jim
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Re: Deck lines and pumps

Post by Jim » Wed Oct 29, 2003 11:52 am

Attwood make some lovely gas central heating systems for boats - do you have one of those installed too?????

JIM

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MikeB
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Goodies & Gadgets

Post by MikeB » Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:44 pm

Hmmm - thanks Jim! |I

Douglas - apprecaited! Awaited with interest.

How about this members.iinet.net.au/~lford1/epumps.htm solution? I can find the Rule 500 easily enough and I guess a battery should be easy enough to source from Maplins or the like.

The fully waterproof toggle switch is proving more difficult though as even the Aus store refered to hasn't got it "in stock". Any UK suppliers?? Tried a quick Google without result.

Not sure I want to place the battery behind the seat as shown there though - perhaps in the day hatch would be better. You can get a neat waterproof, screw-together male/female connector from chandlers which would allow a good thro bulkhead connection.

Perhaps this is another winter project, along with various bits of "in-cockpit" bungee.

Should we pull together some outfitting solutions /ideas (with pics) for the sea pages?? We could cover pumps, deck lines and layouts, tow-lines, paddle retainers etc etc etc - - - -

Mike.

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Jim
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Waterproof or resistant electrical stuff

Post by Jim » Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:50 pm

Mike - have you thought about outdoor electrical systems? must be able to get suitable switches and stuff from garden centres or similar. Might be a bit agricultural though!

I'm now considering a photograph or diagram of my deck layout to put into the pot if people are keen on that sort of thing :-)

JIM

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Douglas Wilcox
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Attwood pump installation in a Quest

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:20 am

MikeB> Douglas - apprecaited! Awaited with interest.

www.gla.ac.uk/medicalgene...9quest.jpg

Douglas :)


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MikeB
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Attwood

Post by MikeB » Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:08 am

Ah! Very cunning - lots of pipe in there - are you sure you're not a frustrated plumber?

Mike.

chris
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Thick decklines

Post by chris » Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:24 pm



I think I might try fitting 8 or 10mm core and sheath braided polyester, trimming the sheath off as necessary to expose the core for attaching to the existing fixing points. I'll probably cover the cut ends of the sheath with heat-shrink tubing.

I also thought of possibly sliding sections of polythene tube over the existing lines, but it might get a bit slippery when wet (although this technique is used on some throw-bag handles).

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Jim
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Re: Thick decklines

Post by Jim » Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:14 am

Don't cut the sheath back! It is normally on there to protect the kernel which is too soft to withstand abrasion, the result would therefore be that your lines wear away at the cleats very quickly.

Plastic tubing sounds like a possibly good idea - I put syphon tubing (from a homebrew shop) over the harness strops on my kite handles and they stand up to quite a lot of abuse when I'm buggying. Throw bag handles have been officially recognised as a bad idea for a couple of years now, although many still come with handles or plastic tubes to make handles.

What sort of fittings do you have? If they are recessed types with plenty of material around the hole you could probably open them up a little bit. Another possibility (but it's a real faff) would be to thread a finer line through the fittings and make a loop in it to tie the bigger decklines too. You will end up with loads of knots (shrink wrap them?) and you will have to tension every length seperately but it might be worth looking at. I still don't think thick line is essential because your victim will not usually be trying to hold themselves in place along the rope, just against the kayak, so as long as their hands are closed around it it doesn't matter too much if they can actually grip or even feel it. As for cutting into their hands, this would only be a problem in heavy seas when the boat and victim are moving a lot relative to each other - but these are probably the conditions yu are most likely to need them in!

JIM

chris
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Thick decklines

Post by chris » Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:51 pm

"Don't cut the sheath back!"

Thanks for the tip. I won't! I have never dissected this type of rope, but I wonder if maybe the kernel could be relaced with a thin line, or perhaps lengths of hollow braid could be threaded onto a thin line?

My fittings are metal bars aligned fore and aft which are glassed into depressions in the deck. I think the loops of finer line idea would work quite well. Any views on the minimum thickness for the fine line? I'd also thought of using fairly beefy cable ties for the same purpose.

I agree that thick line isn't essential, but I have to completely re-rig the deck anyway, so I'm taking the opportunity to fit it.




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