Decks

Places, technique, kayaks, safety, the sea...
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sub5rider
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Decks

Post by sub5rider » Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:29 pm

Here we go again...

Having established that none of my collection of decks, nor any mates' cast-offs, adequately fit my Orion (one offa old rotobat does but it's knackeringly difficult to get on) I'm resigned to buying one.

I'm minded to get one of Knoydart's "combination" decks - neoprene deck, nylon body tube, mainly for comfort, but they have the added advantage of eyes for securing a mapcase, or anything else, to.

My thinking is that if I use a double waist seal cag when the weather's bad then that's gonna keep the water out - assuming that the neoprene/nylon joint is adequately sealed. And on the calm sunny days (which must surely predominate?) when I don't wear a cag the body tube can be rolled down out of the way so as not to impede the tan.

Whaddaya all think ?

Neoprene/neoprene-nylon/nylon

(This sea-kayaking business is playing havoc with my productivity)
Nigel (ace self-rescuer, coz I get the practice) Crompton

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Mark R
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Re: Decks

Post by Mark R » Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:42 pm

You simply want a normal plain minimalist deck (and cag, etc.)...sea paddling is not a wet activity, unless something has gone very wrong.

(flame on....)


-----------Mark Rainsley

Jonathan Theobald
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Knoydart combination deck

Post by Jonathan Theobald » Tue Mar 25, 2003 5:50 pm

=======
I bought a neoprene/nylon deck from Knoydart, and one of the features I like is its two handy mesh pockets.

Haven't used the deck quite enough to be sure how good it is at keeping out the ocean. Early impressions, however, are of a great improvement on the nylon decks I was borrowing before buying my own kayak.

Jonathan
=======

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sub5rider
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Re: Knoydart combination deck

Post by sub5rider » Tue Mar 25, 2003 6:48 pm

"...sea paddling is not a wet activity, unless something has gone very wrong.."

Hmmmm .... but the word "coryvreckan" is being muttered in hushed tones by those with whom I paddle.

Wish I could have a look at a ChillCheater cag - don't s'pose I could borrow yours over Easter Mark...?



Nigel (ace self-rescuer, coz I get the practice) Crompton

Mike B
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Combo deck

Post by Mike B » Tue Mar 25, 2003 6:53 pm

We've got one for the front of the Aleut - seems to work just fine. I suppose you can "drop" the waist tube if you wanted to but I'd have thought the braces would cause some annoyance?

Sea kayaking IS a dry activity - as long as your foot rests work. :b

Mike.

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NickB
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Dry Activity?

Post by NickB » Wed Mar 26, 2003 8:58 am

Sea kayaking is not a dry activity, why else do we bother with dry bags or even spray decks? Sea kayaking is not placid water paddling and the thought of a poor quality or poorly fitting spray deck leading to a swamped boat at sea, when the edge(riverbank!!) is not alongside is the thing nightmares are made of, remember swamped boats do not happen on flat, glassy sunny days, how many people have practiced boat emptying and re-entry/rescue techniques in realistic conditions?

For the choice of spraydeck I opted for an all neoprene deck, my wife opted for the neoprene/nylon combination, both work well at keeping the water out, but she has the definite advantage of being cooler on warm balmy days, you can of course roll down the tube on either style of deck.

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Mark R
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Re: Dry Activity?

Post by Mark R » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:12 am

I didn't suggest buying a poor deck, I just suggested that a flash one (twin waist seal etc.) was not necessary. I use a plain neoprene deck myself, no frills.

I don't swim when sea paddling ever, and have only ever seen it happen from a sea kayak once. Water rarely even washes over my deck, even on 'lively' days. If either of those things were happening, I would feel that something had gone drastically wrong, particularly on the planning side of things.

I would still say that it's a dry activity, done correctly. I simply do not get wet sea paddling beyond a bit of spray on those 'lively' days.

As for the sea being 'placid water', it's just a scaled up swimming pool, right?


-----------Mark Rainsley

Jonathan Theobald
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Combination deck

Post by Jonathan Theobald » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:33 am

========
Nigel, I've had a good look at my Knoydart deck and think the nylon/neoprene join well thought through.

There are two parts to the tube - on top an eight inch band of nylon and then a two inch band of neoprene which joins to the horizontal deck. The neoprene band flares out which should make it shed water nicely. Shortening the shoulder straps could improve that still more. It feels like a quality bit of kit.

Knoydart says the nylon is proofed. But I don't imagine it will stay that way - anyone know about re-proofing?

Jonathan
========

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MatSav
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Re: Dry Activity?

Post by MatSav » Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:34 am

"As for the sea being 'placid water', it's just a scaled up swimming pool, right?"

I suspect your tongue is in your cheek, Mark. Remember the Lyme Bay tragedy? Of course, you know what the real problem there was? The 'leader' didn't have any sp**s**s ;)

sno
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dry activity

Post by sno » Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:41 am

So do you guys only paddle when there is no wind?
In any wind over 16-18 knots I get waves over my spraydeck frequently.
How do you reckon that seapaddling is only wet because of poor planning? What if you plan to paddle in some wind and waves?

cheers,

sno

Jonathan Theobald
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wet and dry

Post by Jonathan Theobald » Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:13 pm

sp**s**s - translated, please?

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MatSav
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sp**s**s - translated, please?

Post by MatSav » Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:28 pm

"sp**s**s" - A word that dare not be spoken, just like "The Scottish Play" >:

Seriously, the mention of that word goes back to "Timmy", someone who helped to aid the demise of the UK Usenet group for discussion of paddling. That word describes some sort of device which could, apparantly, be useful in self-rescue - and would allegedly stop the BCU and APA "killing people".

OK - I'll say it - with the risk of being barred from this board - it's "sponsons".

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adrian j pullin
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Re: Decks

Post by adrian j pullin » Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:53 pm

"sea paddling is not a wet activity, unless something has gone very wrong."

Not a flame...a free and frank exchange of views.

I know a lot of inland paddlers for whom kayaking is not a wet activity either. It depends on the conditions: river grade or sea state. You're not a fair weather sea paddler are you Mark?

I would therefore also say that when a river paddler gets wet, something has gone very wrong. Try explaining that to playboaters! Didn't I read somewhere "To be able to roll is a success, to have to roll is a failure"?
Edited by: adrian j pullin at: 3/26/03 1:00:41 pm

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adrian j pullin
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Re: Dry Activity?

Post by adrian j pullin » Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:56 pm

"how many people have practiced boat emptying and re-entry/rescue techniques in realistic conditions?"

Define "practiced". I have emptied in 10' waves but the original exit was not deliberate. Is this a practice?

BTW: Towing doesn't work in these conditions, no matter what tow system you use.
Edited by: adrian j pullin at: 3/26/03 12:57:13 pm

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Jim
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Re: Dry Activity?

Post by Jim » Wed Mar 26, 2003 4:47 pm

I think I understand Mark's meaning - he'll correct me if I'm wrong! Remember he has done a fair bit of the British coastline including open crossings so can't be a fair weather paddler only, even if he does tend towards planning trips for fair weather!

Mark wasn't suggesting that you could cover your cockpit with clingfilm or anything, just that there is no need to go overboard on a fancy deck with kevlar subdeck, latex grippy stuff around the edge and a spare waist tube, when 99% of the time you won't be going upside down. Certainly conditions can be rough at sea, but I am at less risk of water ingress for the short period when a wave breaks over my sea boat, than the often extended period when my playboat disappears into a whirly, or gets sucked into a stopper, or just decides to float below the surface for a spell, and finally I am at most risk of water ingress when rolling. I can roll my sea kayak, I've praticed in calmish water and I roll a river boat in rough water so I reckon my recoveries should be OK, but I've never had to do it for real. I've never taken the sea boat out in more than 2' of surf, I have fought some big clapotis around Steep Holm, and some fairly choppy conditions around Raasay, but I clearly don't have the experience to make any claims about when the swell is 10' or more - I strongly suspect that the longer wavelength will mean the boat has plenty of time to ride over such waves, and that one can (and will) paddle far enough from the shore that they aren't breaking due to shallow water (wind blown break is rarely a big problem, although of course the wind that causes it is a real nightmare).

Anyway, I'm waiting to see how this turns out, I use a 3mm (I guess) C1 deck on my sea boat (ocean cockpit), but I am considering buying a proper fitting deck and maybe even a cover for it too (sleep in bivi, store kit in boat overnight but don't want to mess around packing it).

Keep the ideas coming - I'll be wearing my normal twin seal cag(s) so won't be able to use braces.

JIM

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Re: Dry Activity?

Post by David P » Wed Mar 26, 2003 8:29 pm

My one comment (it's ... er ... been reported here before and was hinted at above) is that I appear to be vulnerable to short, steep seas. An occasion referred to by Mr R above - possibly no more than say a 5-6 foot swell, but short, steep and reflecting back off cliffs. If you assume both ends of the boat are supported by steep waves but the bit in the middle is suddenly no longer supported, then the transition to being upside down (if my memory is correct) seemed to be fairly abrupt! And even a near bomb-proof river roll proved no defence ...

Oh hang on, we were talking about spraydecks, not self flagellation, weren't we? Me, I suspect I still believe in nylon!
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Jim
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Re: Dry Activity?

Post by Jim » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:21 pm

"no more than say a 5-6 foot swell, but short, steep and reflecting back off cliffs."

Well that ties in with my idea that bigger waves are quite easy in a kayak.

On the Steep Holm trip my friend did put in a roll, I guess the wind was around force 5 but the waves again were probably only 4-5 ft. So come on you gnarly all-weather types, is the chop actually worse than the big stuff?????

JIM

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