Devizes to Westminster - 2009

Marathon, Freestyle, Polo, Slalom, Sprint, WWR, etc.
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lemming
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Post by lemming » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:45 pm

If you buy the puma can I try it sometime???!!!

A puma is something I've not fallen out of yet - in my long list of boats that I can't stay in.

Eliza Dolittle
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Post by Eliza Dolittle » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:25 pm

A puma is something I've not fallen out of yet
Is that because you haven't tried one ? (Ducks under keyboard)

One of the gents at BCCC has just bought a Puma, but I haven't had a go in it yet. We were discussing the merits of various mid range stability boats last week. The Trainer and Macros are two I haven't tried (Or fallen out of) yet, but both have weight ranges for those who have eaten more bacon rolls than me. I see from the Marsport website that the Zeta and Eta (wobble factor 4) are "Coming soon", I'm sure Johnny Bravo will tell us when!

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lemming
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Post by lemming » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:59 pm

Too right!!!

I don't think I've fallen out of a lightning, or an espada, a cittus, or a trainer

The trainer is a beautiful boat - its the only K1 I've ever won a hasler race in - although it was close; if Archie Miles (Lincoln) hadn't chuffed like a train I'd not have known to sprint for the line as he came up behind me!

I quite liked the javelin too - got to try one after Ironbridge hasler last year; nice boat, (but I though that about the cougar and the cleaver until I put a seat in the cleaver...) and I seriously rate the epsilon too.

I even managed to fall out of my beautifully stable lancer the other week which was a little embarrassing since I've owned it for nearly a year; I put a high seat in it and suddenly went from sitting in it to sitting on it on it... to sitting next to it.

I think all this says is that I'm fine in grade 6-7 stability boats and more marginal in anything else; still not too bad since I was in my 30s before I even saw a marathon boat let alone paddled one!

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CaveGirl
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DW nutrition ??

Post by CaveGirl » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:02 pm

Can anyone help with the subject of nutrition with regards to the DW straight through. We've experimented in Waterside D (which took 7.5 hours in the Ardeche touring boat) and I'm not sure we - or rather I - got it right.
Food is a phsychological thing for me as well as physical. I spent most of my 'youth' (from age 14 - 24) working in horse racing and, as an amateur jockey, food was the enemy. I would starve myself all day at school and then eat nothing but pasta when I got home. Thus, I developed a fear of 'going without' food and am frightened of hunger.
When I worked in racing though, the amount of physical exercise I was getting meant that I could eat pretty much whatever i liked in huge amounts and still maintain my racing weight (I rode over jumps in the end and was plenty light enough).
When I left to join the ambulance service, I put on 2 1/2 stone, began developing back problems and general lethargy and more frequent illness.
I have just come back from a month's cave diving in France and have somehow managed to lose a stone and my back problems have ceased and my skin looks better.
What I am getting at is; I want to continue to lose weight until I am back at my healthy weight (another stone to lose, no more) but whilst eating healthily (salads, slimming world diet) is working, I need energy for training in the kayak. I know I need to keep piling on the muscle, but don't want to pile on the flab instead.
What should I be eating ? And with regards to the race, I'm worried about having 'nutritious' foods which I hate (jam sandwiches make me want to puke and I don't like nuts, so chewy bars are out.....) being shoved in my mouth. From a motivational point of view, I'm not going to look forward to the next portage if I'm going to be fed stuff which either won't fill me up or which I won't like.
I felt sick on the Waterside D this year and I'm sure we were eating the wrong stuff i.e mars bars, sausage rolls, and I had a craving for salt so demanded pringles.......We were drinking from camelbacks with high energy powder, power drinks.
Can anyone suggest foods they have used for the DW which worked and were varied enough to keep you interested ??
The fear of going hungry half way through the race is beginning to worry me............

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Post by ChrisBainbridge » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:16 pm

I do not have the answer properly as i have another 2 weeks until I decide to do the DW or not. However I have been reading more of the cycling literature as a once a year tour fan. They seem to be talking about using protein more during their races as many people dislike the opure carbs during the day.

Also a lot of dietitians are now suggesting eating a big protein meal an hour after a hard exercise session to build muscle not flab. This might work well for you.

chris
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Eliza Dolittle
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Post by Eliza Dolittle » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:47 pm

lemming,
You must be better than me ! I have never won a Hasler race and I've fallen out of an Espada (though in my defence, I was trying to paddle it as a high kneeling C1 having read the original edition of the Canoeing Handbook which suggests it can be done)

Cavegirl,
If you like pasta, there is no reason why you can't have a mouthful of that at a portage. Carbohydrate doesn't have to mean jam sandwiches. On the race we had a mixture of marmite sandwiches and jam sandwiches. (use good quality bread and jam) Make sure your support crew can tell the difference. I remember getting jam sandwiches with chicken soup on one portage followed by jam sandwiches and hot chocolate/coffee mix at the next. Jaffa cakes is a perenniel favourite, as are Jelly Babies. Other food to consider is dried fruit, not just raisins, but apricots and apple. Hot cross buns, mini Cheddar biscuits, cereal bars. Not all cereal bars contain nuts, look at Nutrigrain fruit , Pop Tarts, cereal bars ie Rice Krispies, Frosties etc. Avoid anything high in fat. We also used carbohydrate energy drinks, Science in Sport "Go" which contains some salts. 2 flavours, it gets boring. We didn't make it up to full strength though. Get a Heart rate monitor and work out calories per mile and how much drink you use and make the drink up to that strength.

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Post by Mike_M » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:54 am

Eliza,
Paddling high kneel in an Espada should is posible but not very comfortable. The size of the cockpit will prevent you from streching out the front leg and hense getting your centre of gravity low enougth. Also the seat pin is about where your knee needs to be ouch.

Lemming,
The list of boats I have fallen out of is probally too long to list here. I normally fall out for no reason when it is freezing cold Brrrrrr. Last winter I fell out of my Vanquish on a Thames trip with my coaching group.

In my first race I fell out of an Espada 5 or 6 times. I had been paddling a Hunter with no problem for weeks but my coach felt the Espada would be more stable for my first race. I dont think I have paddled an Espada since. It would need to be a Struer version to tempt me.

Regards

Mike

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Post by Jonny Bravo » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:39 am

It's vital that you like the food your support crew are giving you. There's no point trying to eat things you dislike, as you'll dread meeting your support and not take in enough food to complete the race.

If there's any type of (non-meat) sandwich you like - it should do - anything that's easily digestible. supplement this with jelly babies / jaffa cakes / bananas and you'll be fine.

Personally my last DW I chose an interesting combination - not to everyone's tastes - i put the jelly babies inside the cheese sandwiches - sounds horrendous but tastes good....

I never got on with eating mars bars or chocolate, as i found it gave me highs and lows because of the sugar rush, whereas the jelly babies didn't have the same extreme effects, just providing energy throughout.

Would also consider looking at some of the energy drinks too - but take you time getting used to them during your training - some can make you need the loo before you get used to them!


Craig

Eliza Dolittle
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Post by Eliza Dolittle » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:53 am

Mike,
I concur that paddling an Espada in the high kneeling position is possible, but not very comfortable. I had my knee a reasonable distance behind the seat pin, with my leg under the rear cockpit coaming. The buoyancy block was easily moved to make room, but I would have still liked more space for the front leg. I then swapped into the Delta C1 once it became free and fell out of that too, but my legs were like jelly by then.

I went out for a paddle last night, it was later than usual and I ended up paddling back as it was getting dark. This was the first time since Easter that I have paddled in anything other than broad daylight. I was worried at first by seeing lots of random fuzzy spots around me. I thought that this might necessitate an expensive trip to the opticans, but then one of the visual disturbances flew along side me for long enough for me to realise that I was paddling through a cloud of bats!

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lemming
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Post by lemming » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:51 pm

One of the benefits of being short is that I fit quite well in an espada as a high kneeling C1. I managed not to fall out but there was a lot of dropping from high to low... I was trying to coach lighnings at the time and they thought it was very funny. Lightnings seem to work better as kneeling C1s...


On the subject of food - (and having only done DW over 4 days) I found on the first day I ate what I had done through the watersides - nutty bars, and lucosade. By the middle of the afternoon on day 1 I felt monumentally sick and struggled to eat anything. I realised that sweet stuff in large quantities doesn't really work for me - so on subsequent days - and this year - I ate hot cross buns, jaffa cakes and nine cheddars are great; the occasional bit of apple or satsuma and cheese was good too. I can't do bread - its too stodgy so sandwiches are out but I did have one piece of jellied something from someone who threw one at me which actually was very nice, but as a veggie, not something I usually choose. I found cold pasta at the end of the day good.

One of my friends is doing LK1 next year so I've been looking for info for her - there's loads of stuff on youtube now - gotnough has a couple of brilliant bits of footage. I saw Anthony Murr on one of them (who pitches up here occasionally) but failed to recognise anyone else that I knew.

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Post by Mike_M » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:42 pm

Eliza,
Sounds like you have been having fun in the C1. I have been C1 now for a couple of years and have found stability less of an issue than I origionally expected.

In a k1 you keep your centre of gravity (CG) virtually stationary and make small adjustments by moving your extremities around the CG. Similar to how you balance a push bike.

In a C1 you are able to physically change the position of the CG. So the balace comes from moving the position of the CG. Similar to how you balance when walking.

The most common error I see when kayak paddlers try C1 is that they paddle with the front foot , knee , and back foot all on the centre line of the boat. This gives you virtually no control over the position of your CG. The trick is to form a tripod by putting your feet off centre.


Image

If you look at the back foot of Martin Doktor in the photo you can see that his rear foot is as far off centre as posible.

Note the lycra suit and the headband are optional. I suppose you can wear what you like when you have two olympic gold medals.

Regards

Mike

Emlyn
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Devizes to westminster

Post by Emlyn » Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:57 pm

So fame at last I have made you tube - not that I have seen it yet - I have however had a look around the port of london website and seen the predicted tide time for easter monday next year - another early start. A more pressing problem is do I do it in a single or look for a partner? No simple answer except the single will not survive a second DW so is it a new boat or do I hunt a partner and make use of a fairly new K2?

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lemming
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Post by lemming » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:34 pm

Sorry Emlyn - I could have sworn that you posted on here as your alter ego.

What kind of time are you looking to complete in? What kind of partner are you looking for?

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Post by Eliza Dolittle » Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:21 pm

What kind of partner are you looking for?
An obvious answer here would be "rich, strong and black like my coffee" but I'm sure if you said "petite blonde with experience" you would make someones day!

Emlyn,
However tatty your K1 looks I'm sure there are more miles in it than you think. At a committee meeting in Nov 2003 we agreed to replace the club Laance as it was getting a bit long in the teeth. I did the 2004 race in that boat that was definitely going to be replaced asap. Four years later it is still getting paddled every week and still on the list to replace. I'm not holding my breath on this one, we have just ordered a Mirage to replace one of our 35 year old specimens.
If you want to use your K1 then portaging cleanly will minimise wear and tear. Sounds obvious but don't crash it into the walls, keep the boat as dry as possible and empty out any water at the start of the portage, avoid dragging it over the edge as you lift it out, don't drop the boat when carrying it. And on a personal note, don't have some idiot drive into it when it's on the roof of your car outside your friends house!

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lemming
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Post by lemming » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:37 pm

Emlyn,

Don't forget that next year's DW will be in BST and the port of london times are GMT. By my reckoning high tide on the sunday would be 05.15 (with dawn at 06.09) and 05:51 on the Monday. (Take the Port of London times, add 1 hr for daylight saving and another becuase high tide at Teddington is about an hour later than tower bridge).

That would also give a straight through DW start time of about breakfast time. Now that's pretty civilised!

and Liz... just what kind of experience did you have in mind????

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Straight Through

Post by Emlyn » Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:50 pm

Lemming
Your comment that the straight through race is such a civilised start time seems to suggest you are tempted. Is this a reasonably safe assumption to make?
Emlyn

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caveman_si
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Post by caveman_si » Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:21 pm

Being one for a challenge and accepting of the fact i'll probably never run a marathon due to not liking running I have kind of agreed to do a DW with a friend, the straight through race. Its amazing what seems like a good idea in the pub especially since neither of us have paddled marathon boats.

Although Ive been paddling over 10yrs white water, my knowledge of flat water marathon paddling is limited to the boats are long and tippy and the water is flat. I figure I best have a go at a club and make sure I can do it/ or atleast dont completely detest it before setting the DW as goal. So can anyone recommend a club that does marathon paddling near to Warrington as the BCU website was useless?
Any other hints or tips would be usefull too.

Cheers Simon

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lemming
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Post by lemming » Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:17 pm

Caveman...

there is a strong marathon club at Runcorn, and I think one at Adlington - they have a hasler race anyway so must do some flat water racing!

Emlyn...

my sanity is screaming no, but every other bit of me is very excited by the prospect. Did you see my pm? Maybe catch up in the week if you're down.

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Vulch
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Post by Vulch » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:11 pm

lemming wrote: Don't forget that next year's DW will be in BST and the port of london times are GMT. By my reckoning high tide on the sunday would be 05.15 (with dawn at 06.09) and 05:51 on the Monday. (Take the Port of London times, add 1 hr for daylight saving and another becuase high tide at Teddington is about an hour later than tower bridge).

That would also give a straight through DW start time of about breakfast time. Now that's pretty civilised!
I think that last year they made the seniors paddle the evening tide on Sunday, meaning that they paddled the Thames in daylight for safety reasons. However this meant paddling the canal in the dark - which was a bit of an issue for many crews, as the canal was really dark!

A breakfast time start - canal in daylight - Thames through the night (with ambient light etc) - sounds like a better option. Will the organisers allow us to paddle the Thames at night though? Will they give senior crews the option of two tides as in previous years (I think..) ? Or will all senior crews have to hit one tide?

Any ideas?

Vulch

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lemming
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Post by lemming » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:16 am

I guess all of that depends on river conditions. Don't forget that the Thames was on red boards on Mauday Thursday, if not easter weekend itself last year. The late start was a compriomise to ensure the race went ahead - the EA were very keen to see it cancelled because of height of the river.

I don't think, and I hope that is isn't, a general change in policy.

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Post by Eliza Dolittle » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:39 pm

The Thames was on red boards for part of Easter Sunday this year, definitely around Sonning and down. I think it went to yellow around Bray. The drop in flow was one reason why the tide window was extended at Teddington by 30 mins.
The safety concerns arise from the risk of being swept over a weir as you approach a lock, ( eg wrong turn at Cookham, paddling close to weirs at Chertsey, Bray etc) and obviously conditions downstream of the weir in high water are more taxing. (eg Hambledon, Shepperton etc). More chance of getting it wrong in the dark, especially if you don't know where you are going and so the decree that you had to paddle the Thames in daylight. Hopefully next year the conditions will be such to allow the two tide option with the Thames at night. However, the organisers will have to take into account the conditions on the day.

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Post by Hackworth » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:00 pm

I seem to remember that the specific main concern was Windsor, where we all had a lovely portage (but it did warm the feet up)

I was on hols when the thread touched on food - rich fruit cake and ham and jam rolls plus energy drinks kept us going... Not fashionable I know, but I do like fruit cake!

In our more stable boat (with the mother of all torches!) I liked doing the canal at night, with the river in the day.

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Post by Hackworth » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:09 pm

A training run yesterday.

Equipped with new faster boat, endless optimism and big talk, we decided to do the Waterside C course from Pewsey to Newbury.

Paddled frantically, 35 locks (ran every one) with new boat 16 pounds heavier than the old one but that's ok cos we'll make it up with blazing speed on the pounds etc etc

The upshot? After tugging our guts out all the way we were 10 MINUTES SLOWER than last season's C race time!!!!

Gloom. lots of gloom.

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Post by Mike_M » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:24 am

During the Watersides you have people to chase the whole way. This can have a much more influence than you expect.

I regually do a club 6km time trial the conditions can be quite rougth and not perfect conditions for fast times. However when I do the time trial on my own in perfect conditions I am always slower :-(. When I look at my pace on my GPS afterwards I find there are periods where I have taken my foot off the pedal for no reason.

To do fast times in non race conditions is mentally hard and requires great focus.

I admire you commitment to do 20 mile sesions this far in advance of Easter. Focus your efforts on improving your fittness and technique. Do not worry too much about times.

Regards

Mike

Emlyn
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Target Times

Post by Emlyn » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:51 pm

Can I move the thread on a little? I have an ergo that I am using couple of times a week, I am shedding weight, walking the steep hills arund Shropshire and aiming to get into a boat again this week. I have spoken with a sports physio who has started giving me sets of exercises that will help me portage more efficiently. I have had acess to a tremendous set of support crew for a couple of years now. What I would like to know is how, with some degree of accuracy, do you work out a race time? I mean there are some 6 months or so to go yet but the time to work out a training regime is approaching. I would welcome comments on the process. Or indeed source of reading material that may help.

Hackworth
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Post by Hackworth » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:41 pm

I made a spreadsheet for 50 key points along the race with the following as inputs:

Speed through the water at start, and at finish (assume it gets linearly slower through the race)
0.2 mph slower at night
Wind speed
River flow
Minutes lost per lock through portaging
Tidal flow

I used the Waterside races plus training runs to calibrate this.

The actual vs predicted times look like this (I know it's slow but we were in a C2!):

Pewsey - Actual 2:18, Predicted 2:19
Hungerford - 5:30, 5:33
Newbury - 7:29, 7:26
Aldermaston - 9:26, 9:22
Reading - 11:49, 11:58
Marsh - 13:10, 13:16
Marlow - 15:00, 15:04
Boulters - 16:34, 16:17 (had a swim at Hurley and got cold!)
Old Windsor - 18:14, 18:32 (warmed up again!)
Shepperton - 19:48, 20:27
Teddington - 21:56, 22:44
Westminster - 24:28, 24:57

So the conclusions for me are that:
1) The canal is easier to model than the river
2) The river was flowing faster than we thought
3) The tideway was faster than we thought. We were second over the line at WM, having left Teddington before high tide and that's too early

One danger is that your support get used to high accuracy. Up until Reading we had not been more than 4 mins off schedule. When we were 9 mins early at Reading our support were sitting in the car and we had to go and get them!

It's well worth a bit of time doing the predictions though. It helps the support enormously to have something to go at, even if they print it off and write in adjustments as they go...

Brian the Snail
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Post by Brian the Snail » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:16 pm

We used a similar process as Hackworth to guess how long it would take us to get to Teddington. But then used the average speed this produces to predict our times at various way-points. Once we were well into the race (e.g. after Crofton) the actual speed on the water, flow, wind, portages and feeding stops all seem to pretty much even themselves out towards this average. The important thing is to have some general guide for yourselves and support crew. But don't let the support rely in it too heavily, at some stage we were always quite a lot faster or slower than expected - usually for no obvious reason.

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Post by CaveGirl » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:32 am

Just got round to posting this on Youtube, enjoy ! Obviously, we're paddling the red K2 in the DW, not the Ardeche - though Kev's Mum has completed it twice in the Ardeche !! Now that's hard core !!
Whack up the volume...............
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_j32_p70rmI

I also need to talk to Kevin about that pink bouyancy aid..............

Christine

ChrisBainbridge
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Post by ChrisBainbridge » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:42 pm

Hi, I am looking for a way of importing data from my Garmin Legend GPS into the PC preserving the data from the Trip screen with average speed, instantaneous speeds, distance , etc. I am not particularly interested in mapping this as I know where i have been. I simply want to look at speeds and distances for my training. I Have a Legend C which does not seem compatible with the Garmin training Centre.

Secondly are the dates for Thameside and Waterside 2009 out yet?

Thanks
Chris
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CaveGirl
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Post by CaveGirl » Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:54 pm

http://www.watersides.fsnet.co.uk/2005dates.htm

http://www.marathon-canoeing.org.uk/pag ... 14&fsize=0

Waterside A 15th Feb 09
Thameside 1 22nd Feb 09
Waterside B 1st March 09
Thameside 2 8th March 09
Waterside C 15th March 09
Royal K1/K2 22nd March 09
Waterside D 29th March 09

Good job you said something - I had just booked the 2008 dates off at work - DOH !!! Just rectified them....

Chris

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