Split paddles

Inland paddling
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dino
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Split paddles

Post by dino » Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:31 pm

Anyone know if you can get hold of the bits to make split paddles?

I have a spare paddle, Robson Green, which would be much more useful as splits -

Any ideas anyone???

THanks

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MikeB
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Splits

Post by MikeB » Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:11 pm

Depends on the internal diameter of the shaft of course, but Lendal do a jointing tube and spring clip which allows you to do the job easily.

Mike.

Harry
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Splits

Post by Harry » Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:12 pm

Brookbank (+ everywhere else probably) sell the inserts for making splits, there about £3 for the shaft insert and £1 for the metal button. I also heard a rumour that you could but the lendel kit bits but not sure if that's correct!

However a word of warning, I split an old pair of peak paddles using the inserts and it would be a lot easier if you had a workshop and proper mounted saw, to get it 100% straight.

Also because there's only one size of insert (I think) it's unlikely to fit perfectly, this isn't a problem with the end your fixing it in permanently but causes a bit of movement in the other 'push fit' join! I found using an epoxy resin for the permanent join worked well.

When you drilling the hole for the butting make sure you get it 100% the right size, if not your going to get some movement!

You have to remember it's very fiddly and the final results are unlikely to be brilliant. I can paddle with mine fine but have to put a layer of insulation tape in the join to cut out the movement! Also I've only got one slip in mine (they just fit in the back of my boat)and so with 2 or more home made joints it's going to be worse!

You might be better keeping the paddles as spares and just buying a cheap set of splits, after all there only to get you to the end of the river!

Harry
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Lendal

Post by Harry » Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:16 pm

There you go, Mike answered my question about the Lendal inserts. There probally alot better!

Steve B
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Re: Splits

Post by Steve B » Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:44 pm

"You might be better keeping the paddles as spares and just buying a cheap set of splits, after all there only to get you to the end of the river!"

Yes up to a point, but there's cheap and there's cheap. It's hard enough using unfamiliar paddles however good they are, and if you're half way down the Lower Guisane when you have to pull out the splits you want them to be reasonable to use.

Steve B.

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MikeB
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Splits

Post by MikeB » Thu Feb 12, 2004 7:43 pm

Cheap splits?? Well, I was horrified at the cost of a pair of commercially available splits bought years ago - nasty alu tubes and naff rectangular blades, with a moulded ridge - £20+ iirc and that was 10 years ago, at least!

The Lendal joint produces a very solid result - made of course to fit Lendal shafts - - - - Harry is right about the need to cut carefully though - a mitre saw (the sort mounted on a base plate with guide rails to hold the saw accurately) is whats needed to get a 90 degree cut.

A large pipe cutter would probably work as well, or at least mark the cut line. Another alternative would be to place in a vice and use the end of the vice as a guide.

Hole drilling - again, care produces a decent result and I found that drilling with a bit one size down and then using a round file allowed me to get it just so! You'll have to file it anyway as dilling into a round tube produces an oval hole which will have to be fettled to size.

The paddle is used frequently as a "main paddle" and although when so used it is by a relatively inexperienced paddler, she has never complained that "its wonky!!" - and believe me, if it was, she would!

If it helps at all, the external diameter of a Lendal shaft is 30mms. The external diameter of the Lendal spigot tube is 27mms. (To allow it to fit inside the shaft).

If you are doing this, make the cut a bit off centre so you end up with two halves of equal length once you've inserteed the jointing spigot.

You'll get the "kit" from the usual suspects - certainly Knoydart, SPS and Carlisle / Stirling Canoes all sell it. £13 or so I think. (£28 ish for the variable length/feather version).

One word of warning - if you look at a Lendal paddle, you'll see a neat little metal re-inforcing ring at each end - I'm told that this is to prevent the shaft splitting and without it, it might. I'm told that Lendal won't supply said rings and I must admit I've not bothered to try to get them as I've experiencd no problems at all with the splits I made.

I suppose the pressures / leverage involved with having a weak point in the middle is less than right by the blades and my splits are sea-paddles anyway.

I carry the nasty, expensive ones mentioned earlier on rivers and frankly I wouldn't trust the things to do the job in "serious" water! Never had to use them although I did have to give them to a friend on the Etive and he was very cautious indeed with them.

Mike.

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MikeB
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Splits

Post by MikeB » Thu Feb 12, 2004 7:52 pm

Sad git that I am, I've now found that the "expensive" splits mentioned earlier are the Ace variety - flat blades - centre joint = £30! (SPS).

Being flat and as the joint has four holes, it does have the benefit of being ambi-dexterious and also lets me set it up without feather which I found helped when coaching young kids who couldn't seem to master the concept of the control hand.

Maybe they have their uses after all - - - -

Steve B
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Re: Splits

Post by Steve B » Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:02 pm

"Maybe they have their uses after all - - - - "

Fly swatting? Or the usual role for spare paddles, the clothes line prop.

Steve B.

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MikeB
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Splits

Post by MikeB » Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:06 pm

" - - the clothes line prop" - it's why we carry them, isn't it ????????


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Jim
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Re: Splits

Post by Jim » Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:34 pm

Well you knew I was going to have an opinion on this didn't you?

If you are buying splits, don't settle for anything less than the Lendal paddlok system - it's the only way to go, once assembled you are not paddling with splits!

However this is about conversion of old paddles.

AFAIK the lendal kit Mike mentions is the old fashioned spigot and spring loaded button - I don't think the paddlok system is available other than factory made. However, if you understand how it works and your paddle shaft has a compatible ID (27mm as stated) you could try buying a replacement button kit in addition to the normal spigot. What you would then need to do is glue the spigot in one half of the shaft. Then you need to cut slots in the bit of the spigot that extends into the other side and drill for the button. The button is not that difficult to fit - it just slips in but you might have a fight squeezing it to get it in and lining it up with your holes.

What problems could there possibly be? Well cutting those slots is not going to be easy - a diamond tipped tool will give you a fighting chance but you still need a great deal of care. Quite apart from that you really do need the spigot to be a close fit with the inside of the other end, if it's not the paddlok won't be able to tighten against it. I think Lendal only supply paddlok factory fitted because the chances are that it only fits their shafts properly (I suspect they dress the spigots to get the correct fit?). if I didn't already have 2 sets of real paddloks I would probably attempt the project as described, but I wouldn't know how to if I didn't already have them!

As for the metal rings Mike mentions, these used to be supplied when you made a paddle from components, it seems to me that Lendal have moved away from this and actually thicken the paddle shaft with extra layers of fibre reinforcement around all the joints in the paddlok system.

Personally I'd file the robsons in the corner and use them for ditch bashing and invest in a set of decent paddlok splits - kinetic Xtis or mystik for me probably :)
In fact my werners just live in the paddle bag next to my mystiks so I always have them if we end up at a ditch rather than a river. Splits - I usually take them along and get someone else to carry them - McDeath fell for it, Mr. F didn't :) :) :)

JIM

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Mark R
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Re: Splits

Post by Mark R » Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:09 pm

Splits...maybe the most neglected bit of kit.

Buy the best splits you can afford, and make sure everyone else does too so they don't wind up using yours.

Think about it...you will only need them when everything on the river has gone pear-shaped and you've had some kind of nasty experience. Do you really want to then hop back onto the river with some clunky 90 degree feather scaffolding poles that your mate made from leftover bits in his garage?


-----------Mark Rainsley

David P
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Re: Splits

Post by David P » Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:51 pm

I well recall my "5*" (OK, it was Advanced Prof) assessment all those years ago at PyB - standard trick - turn up at start of river - examiner (big Pete!) says "Oh dear, I've forgotten my paddles - I think I'll borrow yours - you have got some splits to use, haven't you?" ... a perfect demonstration of Mark's point. You HAVE to be 100% willing to paddle whatever confronts you, using your splits - 'cos that's when you'll be needing them!

['Course LH Mark has certain advantages over the average, in having the examiner (not) nick your paddles!]
--
David P.

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Jim
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Re: Splits

Post by Jim » Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:22 pm

"['Course LH Mark has certain advantages over the average, in having the examiner (not) nick your paddles!]"

Or his LH splits obtained by much perseverance IIRC :)

JIM

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MikeB
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????

Post by MikeB » Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:41 pm

Jim - slots????? WHAT slots???? Sorry guv, while I have the greatest respect for your engineering excellence, I have not the faintest idea of what you're on about!

You are right about my talking about the "old fashioned" spigot system - but there ain't no need to cut no slots! It's simple - cut the shaft (ideally off-centre) - roughen the spigot a bit with sandpaper - apply epoxy (sparingly) and insert spigot! Leave overnight. Join both halves - set feather to taste - drill suitable hole - insert bendy metal thingie (easy!) and fettle hole(s) until it works properly.

Stick paddles on back deck of sea-kayak or down sides of river boat - job done. (Until side-surfing in prep. for a bongo-slide and waves/surfy-stuff grab deck placed paddle half, dislodge from deck, apply significant leverage as a result and coup one in the surf - very ignominioius!)

Re "Padlock" - agree - you're right, I understand that Lendal won't supply except as factory-fitted-option.

Mike.


Steve B
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Paddlok

Post by Steve B » Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:57 pm

I'm pretty sure Lendal will sell you a jointed shaft to fit your old blades to. Quite possibly they don't sell the bits, that would make sense because the Paddlok joint is much better than just a glued-in afterthought.

Steve B.

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Rich P
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Padlock

Post by Rich P » Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:10 am

I have to agree with Jim the Padlock system is the way to go, once set up you have a paddle almost as good as your normal one. I have a set of the emergency paddles (based on the cheaper mania, I think) and they're fine, I've used them on grade IV with no problems. The other advantage they have over homemades is they go both left (for those of us who paddle properly) and right handed (for the wierdos) with a a feather less than 90%. To top it all they're about £100 which for something you may well need to rely on isn't that bad

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MatSav
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Re: Padlock

Post by MatSav » Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:02 am

"... The other advantage they [Lendal Paddloks] have over homemades is they go both left (for those of us who paddle properly) and right handed (for the wierdos)..."

I'm told the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body. Does that mean that left-handed people are the only ones in their right mind? :)

guy
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padlok

Post by guy » Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:49 am

the padlok system is great EXCEPT is is only found on cr@p lendal shafts
why do you think Jim takes his werners into a ditch ;)

Jim Wilson @ Carlisle canoes has a choice of spigots
to suit different diameters of shaft as well as the
reinforcing rings that are essential IMHO unless you reinforce locally with kevlar string and epoxy

unless you want to change the feather why do you need to cut at 90 degrees

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siwiles
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Re: padlok

Post by siwiles » Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:29 pm

Of course LH Mark's "advantage!" swiftly disapears when forces to use RH splits (cos he didn't have any lefties), particularly when positioned in an inescabable gorge above a nasty class 5!

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MikeB
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Splits

Post by MikeB » Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:31 pm

Guy asked " - - - why do you need to cut @ 90 degrees??) - no need to - it just looks neater (if such things are important to you of course :D )

Unless of course if you are trying to make an ambidextrous paddle I suppose.

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Jim
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Re: Splits

Post by Jim » Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:09 pm

MikeB - the slots are a critical part of the Paddlok system, check back I was suggesting how a regular kit might be adapted to paddlok if you can get hold of the buttons. It is not a converison for the faint hearted and I recommend buying a set of Paddloks. The method only works for 2-piece and having tried 4-piece I would never go back :)

Guy - Lendal will fit paddlok to any shaft you want. If Jim Wilson only offers it on the economy shafts find someone who is prepared to order you a fully custom paddle from Lendal - I have seen a large number of HPS shafts set up with Paddlok. On the basis that I got a replacement ordered through Stirling I don't think Jim will refuse if you explain what you need, I've always found all of his shops helpful in supplying what I need.

Guy also mentioned using metal rings any time you don't have additional reinforcing fibres in the joint areas - both my Lendal Paddloks do have plenty of extra reinforcement, and this has not been the area where I have eventually (after a lot of heavy use) had breakages. If making splits yourself, the rings are probably the easier way to go.

JIM

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