Leaky Quest^

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Chas C
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Leaky Quest^

Post by Chas C » Thu May 04, 2006 12:21 pm

I'm looking for some advice.

On arriving at Lundy the rear compartment of my quest had probably 2 to 3 gallons of water in it - spoiling my kit sadly.

On getting back home I set the boat up on some stands, tipped it slightly backwards and filled the rear compartment with water - no leaks though.

Then I dried it out put some paper towels inside, hatch cover on, turned it over and pressure jetted water into the skeg area for about 3 mins or so - again no leaks found.

Turned it back upright and pressure jetted water around the hatch cover - found small amount of water had run across the hatch inside.

So I've ordered a new hatch - but how could so much water come in through the hatch.

Have had the boat for about one year and always had a cup full of water entering the rear compartment but incorrectly though it was the skeg.

Is there any thing else I could try - am I barking up the wrong tree ?? :-(

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Post by Bertie.. » Thu May 04, 2006 12:44 pm

Chas,

I had a similar problem with an Island Expedition a few years ago. The leak was finally tracked down to the end loop hole, through which it was leaking - might be worth a look.

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Post by JOHNF » Thu May 04, 2006 2:43 pm

Did you try the skeg when filled with water?
I had a similar problem till the skeg sleeve was resealed.

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Post by Goldspoon » Thu May 04, 2006 3:28 pm

Main areas for leaking are skeg boxes and toggle holes...

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Water in hatches

Post by surfkayaks.com » Thu May 04, 2006 4:09 pm

Try drilling a pinhole,1mm thru top of bulkhead. Differential in temps causes vacumm in hatches and sucks water under the best/tightest fitting covers

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MikeB
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Post by MikeB » Thu May 04, 2006 6:19 pm

As suggested - especially the skeg box! Turn the boat upside down and fill the box - it'll either be leaking where the cable comes in, or possibly the box is porous and / or there's a pin hole somewhere. In my boat, I sealed the cable with epoxy, and used gel coat filler on the box. The problem only became obvious when leaving the box with water in it - playing the hose on it didnt show it!

Also check the water isn't seeping in thro the hatch rim where it joins the hull. Some rims are bolted and sealed, but the rim seems to flex and destroys the seal. My Quest went back to P&H and they reseated the rim.

Also worth lubing the cover - use the Nylon and Plastic spray lube from Halfords. Water can indeed be drawn in by vacumn, but I've not had that problem and in fact I've sealed the breather holes that P&H provide.

Toggle hole can be tested with a hose (or some water in the hatch and see if it leaks out - - ). If found the easiest fix for that involved drilling the hole oversize and Aralditing in a suitable bit of rigid plastic tube. That in turn was drilled for the cord.

As you can tell, I've had them all!

Mike.

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Chas C
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Post by Chas C » Thu May 04, 2006 10:05 pm

Thanks for the advice.

Toggle hole didn't leak when the compartment was full of water - during my test - so should be ok.

Funny enough I found the 1mm hole in the bulk head and wondered what it was for.

Not sure how a pressure differential can let 2 gallons of water into the compartment throught the cover.

Seems like I'll try it with a new cover and if this does not work then its a long trip to P&H to get it sorted.

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Geoff Seddon
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Post by Geoff Seddon » Fri May 05, 2006 12:18 pm

What about hatch cover not quite seated properly for that trip?

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Pelagic
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Post by Pelagic » Fri May 05, 2006 1:55 pm

What about hatch cover not quite seated properly for that trip?
Top advise there Geoff, oval one no doubt, mine does it unless I take the time to line it up properly. Also I have had the boden cable leak when I have been too hamfisted packing stuff around the top of the skeg box and twisting the cable.
Two gallons seems a huge amount though, Quests eh? wobbly leaky things!

Phil

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Chas C
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Post by Chas C » Fri May 05, 2006 4:04 pm

Geoff Seddon wrote:What about hatch cover not quite seated properly for that trip?
Being a numpty - how do I ensure its seated properly.

So far I've just made sure its flat and level like the round hatch's and hard down - do I need to do any more.

I could see that the inner workings of the seal could get folded back perhaps causing an issue - but how would I know that ??.

PS: I do appreciate the help.

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MikeB
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Post by MikeB » Fri May 05, 2006 4:07 pm

Chas C wrote:- how do I ensure its seated properly.

So far I've just made sure its flat and level like the round hatch's - do I need to do any more.

.
As long as it sits "square" on the rim, that should be enough - I line up the longtitudinal lines on the cover with the middle of the rdf just in front of it. If you've lubed the cover with the stuff I suggested it helps.

MIke.

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Chas C
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Post by Chas C » Fri May 05, 2006 4:11 pm

OK thanks Mike - I will be much more carefull in future and get some of the car version of KY to lubricate it :-)

Perhaps I've wasted my money on a new cover - still I'll have a spare

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Pelagic
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Post by Pelagic » Fri May 05, 2006 5:59 pm

how do I ensure its seated properly.
Tricky one, as Mike says start by lining it up properly, then (and this is the tricky bit) kind of peel it on to make sure the rim seal is engaged properly, some hatches, if you look carefully have a sort of double seal arrangement whereby the bottom seal pulls the top of the hatch down on the rim (when seated properly) How to tell? Well if you need to peel it off you pretty much need to peel it on, the actual knack is to peel with your fingers while pressing away with the heel of your hand (a bit like kneading bread) then bash all around the rim for good luck! Last check is to ensure the hatch is flush with the deck, any gaps means its not seated.
It goes without saying of course that you will forget all this on the first day, in a hurry to cram all that stuff somewhere and usually racing the tide use the last bit of space available, cram the hatch on top of whatever essential item you need to stuff in, give it a good bash down and voila! on the first night your stuff will be wet. A cupful of water goes a long way in a sleeping bag!
Needless to say we always carry spare hatches , luckily no-one has ever asked us why we have them in the first place!

Phil

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Jim
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Post by Jim » Sat May 06, 2006 11:55 am

Get into the habit of unpacking diagnostically!

If when you open the hatch there is water sitting on top of the cargo, or the top layers of cargo are wet, AND you haven't capsized, then the hatch is leaking or wasn't on properly (anyone can make that mistake in a hurry, even Phil). If you only find water when you get to the very bottom (where it will pool anyway, then it must be coming in along the keel line or nearby.

Working towards the ends it gets more difficult as you tend to pull stuff through the pooled water (pump/sponge out as your go?) but try and establish if the topside of anything stowed next to the skeg is wet, or stuff right up in the end is a bit damp (curve of keel line usually means that stuff stays dry, unless you really have a lot of water!).

The other places no-one has mentioned are the seam or any deck fittings, although one would almost certainly spot damage by eye that would be likely to cause the former and the latter will not let water in that fast and a bit of work wiith screwdirver/allen key and spanner should solve it, if in doubt back the bolt out and put silicone sealant under the fitting (not in the hole unless you like to get in a mess) before re-tightening. My dad took a fair old amount of water in through his slack footrest bolts the other week, but they are more permanently submerged than deck fittings....

I'm off to work on my split in a bit, I'll try and get some pictures of the process :)

JIM

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Chas C
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Post by Chas C » Sun May 07, 2006 12:43 pm

Thanks Jim - and others.

Now I'm trying the "fill the skeg" slot with water and see if it leaks over time, initial view is some small drops are coming in.

Have raised it off the ground so I can get my head inside to see, will leave it for a few hours as suggested.

I'm getting a keel strip added in a week so will ask then to gell coat up the inside of the skeg slot and cable position.

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Post by Chas C » Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:56 pm

Well its taken some considerable time but I've cracked it at last.

The leak is coming from the rear hatch mounting ring - seems the mastic used to seal it in place had gone hard and cracked - allowing water to seep between the mounting ring and the boat.

Its something you cannot see but if you tip the boat on its side and fill with water until it reaches the joint with the hatch ring the water just poured out.

Have removed the hatch, added new sealant, everything is now hunky dory - no more leaks and luverly dry kit.

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Chas C
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Re: Leaky Quest^

Post by Chas C » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:39 am

Well the saga continues.

Just spent few days paddling around the IOW with fully loaded boat - the longest section of the trip was about 9 hrs and on finishing had about a gallon+ water in the rear hatch. On short trips, 2 hrs ish, I get about 1/2 ltr of water when boat is not loaded.

So have had the skeg box skimmed with gel coat, have reseated the cover rim. Cannot find a leak by filling the rear hatch with water.

I suspect its coming thro the skeg cable entry point - any idea's how I can seal this.

I will try to fill the skeg box with water and see if I can see any drips coming through but will try to re-seal anyway.

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MikeB
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Re: Leaky Quest^

Post by MikeB » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:39 pm

I used Araldite - Mike

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Chas C
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Re: Leaky Quest^

Post by Chas C » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:48 pm

MikeB wrote:I used Araldite - Mike
Ah yes Araldite - never thought of that - did you make a small funnel to pour it into ?

Have in the past tried forcing mastic in with my fingers but that never worked.

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Re: Leaky Quest^

Post by MikeB » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:59 pm

No need - this is an "inside" job anyway - there are two possible areas of ingress where the cable goes into the skeg box.

There is a brass ferrule thingie which screws into the box. The skeg wires outer conduit sits in that. It's easy enough to see if the conduit has lifted out of the ferrule.

I've found several boats where it has - all I've done has been to make sure it's securly seated and then apply a generous smear of epoxy round the cable and the ferrule joint, and also the joint where the ferule enters the skeg box. These have usually taken place on a exped, so very much "field repairs".

Problem solved in each case.

I guess some of that Sikaflex stuff would do it too - I've also used the super, heavyweight version of No More Nails with good effect to seal a bulkhead so I expect it would be ok too.

Hope this helps - Mike

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Re: Leaky Quest^

Post by horis karloff » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:54 pm

I have the same problem with my Ecobezhig, rear and front fills up with about 1/2 gallons in choppy waters. I filled comprtments with hose water to see if it leaks out and it doesn't.

I wonder if there's a vacum sucking in water caused by something I cant easily explain????????

I just started snorkeling from it and now it leaks.

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MikeB
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Re: Leaky Quest^

Post by MikeB » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:34 pm

Horis - have you checked the toggle holes? IIRC that's a plastic boat so the bulkheads will also be suspect and water in the cockpit will make it's way in. Assuming the Eco Bezhigs I've found thro Google are the same as yours, it also looks like it's got strap on hatches which could I expect also be a possible culprit.

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Chas C
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Re: Leaky Quest^

Post by Chas C » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:28 pm

Hi Mike - my boat is carbon kevlar base with fibre glass top, its not plastic. Also I do not have strap on hatches. But I will indeed check the toggle hole at the rear and see what happens.

Should it be an issue how do I fix a leaky toggle hole ?

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MikeB
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Re: Leaky Quest^

Post by MikeB » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:04 pm

Chas - apologies - I was replying to Horis.

For fixing toggle holes, what I did was use a bit of hard plastic tube I had lying around to make a sleeve - can't recall what it originally came from. It's external diameter was a bit too big for the original toggle drilling, and the internal was too small for the toggle cord, but that was what I was looking for anyway.

I drilled the original hole to fit the tube - scored the tube with a coarse file, smeared the hole and the tube with Araldite and stuck the tube in. Once it had set, I trimmed the ends flush and then drilled the tube just enough to allow the cord thro. Being a pedant with an eye for asthetics and to avoid having a sharp edge which would fray the cord, I ran a countersink over each end.

Re-fitted the toggle and the job was, as they say, "a good un". More to the point, it's never leaked since.

If you dont have a suitable bit of tube (you may be less squirrel like than I am) then another possible suggestion would perhaps be to drill the hole oversize, smear araldite all round the inside, and redrill to size. Hopefully there would be a layer of Araldite left which will seal any voids or cracks which may be letting water in.

Another thought which has just come to me would be to use an bit of aluminium tent pole as the sleeve - I have rather a lot of said tent pole lying in the garage as it happens which a PM with your details will result in a bit being posted if you think that would be any good.

A final thought would be to add a layer of resin to the existing plug which will have been poured when the hull was joined, and into which the toggle holes are drilled. Stand the boat on end, and devise some means of getting the resin into the end - perhaps you could have a cunning device to lower a cup of resin into the end of the boat and then tip it up to release the liquid into the space.

Not much would be needed and that could well be a simpler solution than my sleeve method. I didn't have any resin though!

(EDIT to add) Now - I'm not sure whether this qualifies me as seriously sad, or a cunning chappie, but having jsut had to pop out to the garage for something (yes, at 11.15) I find I have a small bit of the magic plastic sleeve / tube I originally used!! Shoudl your investigations reveal a leaky toggle hole, let me know if you want a bit of it.

Regs, Mike

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Re: Leaky Quest^

Post by TechnoEngineer » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:10 pm

Could it be worth cutting some closed-cell foam to make an additional temporary bulkhead so you could isolate the area around the skeg box?
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Chas C
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Re: Leaky Quest^

Post by Chas C » Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:09 pm

Thanks everyone for your suggestions, problem now diagnosed, one should never just assume something you'd already had fixed worked.

Today I filled the rear hatch, tipped up the boat and waited - no water from skeg - no water from rear lifting hole. Placed cover on and turned upside down and saw small leakage from hatch rim area.

Turned boat back over - dried around hatch and then flexed boat and saw water moving under the hatch fixing rim in all locations between the four fixing screws, thus the problem has always been the rim and the last repair did not work.

Boat obviously flex's more when loaded and therefore leaks more around the rim at these times.

What suggestions does anyone have for material to seal the rim back in place ?, looks like some black stuff was used last time.

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Re: Leaky Quest^

Post by Owen » Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:55 pm

If you can get the hatch rim off, clean off all the black stuff. To fix it back on again you can use either slikaflex
http://www.knoydart.co.uk/display_acces ... =14&id=976
This has some flex in it when set.
Or you can use this stuff
http://www.thegluepeople.co.uk/index.ph ... ucts_id=25
This will make a solid bond with no flex. I've used it to retro-fit three hatches to my kayak. All are water-tight and bombproof.

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Chas C
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Re: Leaky Quest^

Post by Chas C » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:13 pm

Thanks Owen - think the last repair was done with Sikaflex, will try your second option.

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Chas C
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Re: Leaky Quest^

Post by Chas C » Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:39 pm

Second option tried and it worked - thanks again for everyone's advice and Owen for the glue details.

Hatch rim is now water proof and hatch seems to be staying dry :-)

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