Burn, Machno, 9R???

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Dr Robin
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Burn, Machno, 9R???

Post by Dr Robin »

I've been paddling a large Burn for years and love it, but my friends tell me that I'm behind the times. Should I move on to a more modern design?

I tried the Machno on my local river. The big advantage of the Machno is the enormous bow which seems to be able to rise over anything. In general you feel the benefit of the extra volume. It's also surprisingly easy to turn and manoeuvre around obstacles. My main issue was that it doesn't "grip" the water like the Burn: I felt like I was "slipping around". Also I didn't feel that I could boof as well.

Besides these fairly objective thoughts I was left with a personal feeling: the Machno isn't as much fun as the Burn. You can't surf waves, tear into an eddy or carve round an aggressive turn. You don't feel "engaged" with the water but instead float on top. The Machno also weighs a ton, I don't fancy carrying it into a river!

So what should I do? Is it worth considering the extra large Burn so I get the benefit of the Burn's responsiveness plus the extra volume?

countvoncount
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Re: Burn, Machno, 9R???

Post by countvoncount »

I would only get a new boat if you are really excited about it--who cares if the one you have is in fashion or not. Also, the Burn is plenty big for most situations. So unless you feel that you are pushing your limits and routinely find yourself wishing you were in something more forgiving, you will end up missing the zippiness of the Burn.
It is worth trying some of the other "new generation" boats, however, just to see what you make of them. The 9R2 is really quite sporty and responsive, as is the Jackson Nirvana. In general, these boats come alive when the water gets bigger and pushier (i.e. from grade 4 or so). I know what you mean about the "floaty"/corky feeling, which I also don't like--but again, in really pushy water, it can feel great to be on top of it...

Franky
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Re: Burn, Machno, 9R???

Post by Franky »

I demoed the Machno and had the same feelings as Dr. Robin. It's very stable, and it is manoevrable, but rather too much, I'd say: I found it hard to keep in a straight line. It's designed to respond to constant forward paddling; rudders are really hard work.

I've had a Nirvana since last summer and haven't looked back. It has the stability of the Machno, but feels much better-balanced between bow and stern. Like the Burn, it tracks very well, but it's also easy to turn thanks to the very curved hull and the hard rails - just lean it a little and it carves a nice turn.

I'm not in anything like Dr. Robin's league, so he might find it too much boat, but I find the Nirvana both fun and forgiving. I've used in on Grades 3 and 4 and since buying it, I haven't felt the desire to return to my old Mamba once.

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Mat @ Pyranha
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Re: Burn, Machno, 9R???

Post by Mat @ Pyranha »

Good question!

Boat design has taken a few leaps since the Burn came out, but I do still believe it has its place, which you've covered quite well yourself in this sentence, '...surf waves, tear into an eddy or carve round an aggressive turn.'

I would say the advantages of the Machno over the Burn are that it's faster, (usually) much easier to boof, incredibly easy to roll, a drier ride, and thanks to these and the more 'forgiving' sidewalls, it lets you really get stuck in and push your boundaries, which personally I found meant I was trying a lot more moves and lines than I would have in the past.

When you (and others) mention about the Machno not gripping the water or tracking in a straight line, it sounds as though the stern rails may not be engaged in the water, and in combination with you finding it hard to boof, I wonder whether perhaps you're paddling too big a size for yourself... may I ask which size you tried, and what your height and weight is? For anyone in the correct weight range, moving the seat back often fixes any issues like this.
Franky wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:43 am
...it is manoevrable, but rather too much, I'd say: I found it hard to keep in a straight line. It's designed to respond to constant forward paddling; rudders are really hard work.
See above; you're thinking of the 9R when you say it's designed for constant forward paddling, as a 'lazy paddler', I can confirm the Machno works pretty well whether you paddle hard, smooth, or stare in terror at a rapid and only remember to paddle at the last second!
Current Boats: Ripper L, 9R II L

chrissloan
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Re: Burn, Machno, 9R???

Post by chrissloan »

I've moved from a large Burn (B2) to a large Machno about 6 months ago, I'm 105kg and 182cm tall. The Burn had a hole in and I got a good deal second hand so didn't demo first.
I've found the same effect and I love the huge bow that rises up out of things, as the bow is (almost) impossible to sink I find that I've had to change technique a bit and have a more forward posture in the boat. It definitely doesn't eddy like the burn though which I was disappointed with but I've got used to it now. Despite being heavier, the bit that's in contact with your shoulder is a better shape so I don't mind carrying it too much. I'm definitely paddling more confidently and running grade 5 more often than I was before, but this probably isn't just the forgiving boat, I've also had some coaching this winter.

I've paddled the XL Burn 3 a few years ago in Nepal and really didn't get on with it, despite the slightly smaller volume I remember it being even more 'corky' than the Machno, probably because it has less rocker and more of the volume is in the water.

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Re: Burn, Machno, 9R???

Post by purelandexpeditions.com »

Dr Robin
I just went back to a design that is almost a decade old - why becuase it suits my style.

Nuff said!

DAZ
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lakesboy
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Re: Burn, Machno, 9R???

Post by lakesboy »

none of these...try other companies and designs as well

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Re: Burn, Machno, 9R???

Post by SPL »

I loved my Burn after which i have owned a Newmad and then a Tuna 2.0 and demoed nearly everything else.

Like you i find many new design's corky, uninspiring on average flows and almost too safe/dry, not engaging enough.
The 9r2 is nice and i was tempted but i noe own a Ripper and love it.
It has great edges, gets vertical occasionally but is stable and hasn't backed loop yet! Its challenging me again forcing me to improve and its far more capable than you think.
It carves better than my old burn, i can hit any eddy, it boofs great and makes any grade enjoyable.

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Re: Burn, Machno, 9R???

Post by clarky999 »

Dr Robin wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:32 pm
I've been paddling a large Burn for years and love it, but my friends tell me that I'm behind the times. Should I move on to a more modern design?

I tried the Machno on my local river. The big advantage of the Machno is the enormous bow which seems to be able to rise over anything. In general you feel the benefit of the extra volume. It's also surprisingly easy to turn and manoeuvre around obstacles. My main issue was that it doesn't "grip" the water like the Burn: I felt like I was "slipping around". Also I didn't feel that I could boof as well.

Besides these fairly objective thoughts I was left with a personal feeling: the Machno isn't as much fun as the Burn. You can't surf waves, tear into an eddy or carve round an aggressive turn. You don't feel "engaged" with the water but instead float on top. The Machno also weighs a ton, I don't fancy carrying it into a river!

So what should I do? Is it worth considering the extra large Burn so I get the benefit of the Burn's responsiveness plus the extra volume?
I went from my old Raptor to a Machno for similar reasons, though I also have a few of the same problems (and have been considering switching to something smaller as a result).

First up, I'd say the massively increased rocker is the key difference to older designs, more so than the extra volume (though that obviously has an effect too), and for that reason I doubt just a bigger burn/more volume would bring you much. The rocker definitely makes the Machno ride up higher over holes etc, skip out from boots and slides, as well as making it more manoeuvrable when pivoting with a flat hull and so on. When first testing it, it definitely like a significant performance upgrade on the Raptor. Faster too.

However paddling it lots over the past two years, I've also started noticing the downsides more and more too - particularly that feeling of not gripping the water. Despite it being so forgiving, somehow sometimes this gives me the feeling that I can't always trust it to make the moves I want to when carving/engaging an edge is important. So forgiving it loses that performance characteristic maybe? And on occasion I've worried about whether I can make (micro)eddies in it rather than slipping past them if the nose doesn't grip and pull in, which is something I've never ever worried about before in any boat.

Re. being hard to boof, I find generally it's amazingly easy to boof - apart from situations where I want to come carving/arcing in on edge. In which case I don't always trust that the edge will hold/track/carve in as I want... Could obviously be me paddling badly, but not an issue I've had before. It's a hard feeling to describe. Just lacking the sensitivity to feel the edge? Maybe I'm just not heavy enough to get the edge deep enough in the water to engage it properly?

Don't get me wrong, most of the time it's great, just for me not completely 100% dialled, and these niggles creep in sometimes.

I also find it surfs pretty well, at least better than other creek boats like the Raptor or the original Nomad.

I tried a few other boats last summer thinking about replacements.

Waka Stout - super fun, amazingly agile on edge, but sooo slow
Waka Tuna2 - meh, definitely prefer the Machno
Waka Steeze - fun, different, fast, also nice on edge, but so big and bloody wide...

Didn't get around to trying either 9R, or 9R2, but probably are more edgy and 'high performance' so I guess would solve the issue.

I'm also interested in the Zet 5, Spade Blackjack (but probably a bit small) and Royal Flush (probably a bit big), and JK Nirvana (but crazy expensive due to Trump's trade war). Would love to try a Tuna 1 too, as I think size/volume wise it would probably fit me better than the either Stout or OG.

Mat @ Pyranha wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:40 am

When you (and others) mention about the Machno not gripping the water or tracking in a straight line, it sounds as though the stern rails may not be engaged in the water, and in combination with you finding it hard to boof, I wonder whether perhaps you're paddling too big a size for yourself... may I ask which size you tried, and what your height and weight is? For anyone in the correct weight range, moving the seat back often fixes any issues like this.
Interesting. Hopefully Robin doesn't mind me jumping in on his thread, but I'm in the medium and at 175cm and 70kg + whatever wet paddling kit I'm wearing I think it should be the right size? I tried raising the seat and adding the hooker thigh grips, both of which helped a bit but not as much as I hoped.

I haven't tried moving the seat though. Intuitively I felt like moving it back might help - but my head says that should raise the bow rails further out of the water which would presumably exacerbate the not gripping and carving and carving into tight eddies/turns? Will try it though!

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