EJ resigns

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Whitey1
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EJ resigns

Post by Whitey1 »

Just spotted this. Can't believe it. Jackson's without EJ ? Eh ? https://www.jacksonadventures.com/2019/ ... hitewater/

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Re: EJ resigns

Post by jmmoxon »

Well, it was never his company & he's spending more time fishing nowadays ;-)

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Re: EJ resigns

Post by countvoncount »

Lots of talk in the US about the WW kayaking industry being in crisis--and EJ's resignation is seen to be part of that. Jackson, Dagger, Liquidlogic are all in trouble, it seems. The WW side of thing is not making enough money.

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Re: EJ resigns

Post by Whitey1 »

Lots of talk in the US about the WW kayaking industry being in crisis--and EJ's resignation is seen to be part of that. Jackson, Dagger, Liquidlogic are all in trouble, it seems. The WW side of thing is not making enough money.
The EU retaliatory tax against Trump at 25% can't be helping any of them. £1250-£1500 for some models now. What a shame for everyone, manufacturers, importers, retailers and customers. No winners in a trade war as they say.

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Re: EJ resigns

Post by Strad »

Whitey1 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:49 pm
Lots of talk in the US about the WW kayaking industry being in crisis--and EJ's resignation is seen to be part of that. Jackson, Dagger, Liquidlogic are all in trouble, it seems. The WW side of thing is not making enough money.
The EU retaliatory tax against Trump at 25% can't be helping any of them. £1250-£1500 for some models now. What a shame for everyone, manufacturers, importers, retailers and customers. No winners in a trade war as they say.
To be honest, there needs to be thought about production line management for cost cutting etc, but also some consideration of how much end users are willing to put their hand in their pocket. I don't think WW kayaks have tracked anywhere near inflation over the last 30+ years, so we effectively are all paying less than we should (unless we want market force to play into low company numbers / low model count to give economy of scale).

(Now I will duck as I am sure others will disagree with that view point)
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Re: EJ resigns

Post by PaddyW »

Strad wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:04 pm
Whitey1 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:49 pm
Lots of talk in the US about the WW kayaking industry being in crisis--and EJ's resignation is seen to be part of that. Jackson, Dagger, Liquidlogic are all in trouble, it seems. The WW side of thing is not making enough money.
The EU retaliatory tax against Trump at 25% can't be helping any of them. £1250-£1500 for some models now. What a shame for everyone, manufacturers, importers, retailers and customers. No winners in a trade war as they say.
To be honest, there needs to be thought about production line management for cost cutting etc, but also some consideration of how much end users are willing to put their hand in their pocket. I don't think WW kayaks have tracked anywhere near inflation over the last 30+ years, so we effectively are all paying less than we should (unless we want market force to play into low company numbers / low model count to give economy of scale).

(Now I will duck as I am sure others will disagree with that view point)
A glassfibre kayak cost £70 in 1977. Using online inflation calculator that would be £438 in today's prices. A glassfibre surf kayak today would cost £1000
A paddle cost £15 in 1977. or £93 in today's prices. Current cost range of a paddle in 2020 = £80 to £500

A plastic ww boat cost £450 in 1996 or £851 in today's prices. Current cost range of plastic ww boat = £700 to £1400.

Ok so they are not exact like for like comparisons but it would indicate that people are paying more for kayaking gear these days. With top end gear costing substantially more.

Neoprene wetsuits are cheaper these days. That's all I can think of that is definitely relatively cheaper these days.

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Post by jmmoxon »

Like for like the prices probably have followed inflation, although lowest nowadays are slightly less as production methods are generally better.

Most products are either made from more expensive materials (paddles & composite boats) or require more man-hours per boat for outfitting, or stitching on softwear etc.

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Post by Strad »

inflation calculator I used suggested a current price of around £1200 for a boat in current prices - so I would take it that so many are sold below that line (a Dagger GT or Axiom can be found at £600) That feels under-priced not that I'm moaning as I'll happily buy something like that as they are good boats - but it I can't help but wonder if we are cutting off our noses.

(My comment above was thinking purely about boats).
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Post by jmmoxon »

It does depend when & what you start with.

The cheaper boats are using old moulds that otherwise would be on the scrap heap, so do cost the manufacturer less.
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Post by countvoncount »

Corran Addison has a piece on the price of kayaks: https://paddlerezine.com/2019/11/14/the ... -kayaking/
He is hardly a neutral observer in this, but it does seem to be true that many companies have been losing money on their WW boats rather than making money on them.

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Post by jmmoxon »

With every product there is a "sweet spot" price where you make the most profit - too cheap & you don't make enough money, too expensive & you don't sell enough units...

Will be interesting to see what effect Pelican's recent buy out of Confluence will have:
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 75696.html

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Post by jmmoxon »

A couple of other thoughts - several companies are now owned by conglomerates that need to make more profit to cover their costs than the original owners (who started up for the love of the sport).

& 20 years ago most outdoor centres used low spec ww boats - now many are using sit on tops & SUPs...
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Re: EJ resigns

Post by Chris Bolton »

Will be interesting to see what effect Pelican's recent buy out of Confluence will have
Pelican's range is very much at the 'Recreational' end of the market. The Pelican open canoe is not well regarded by serious paddlers.

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Post by jmmoxon »

Yes, it's a number of years since they took it over from Coleman - however, they won't be looking to compete with themselves...
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Post by Mark Mulrain »

He's started his own composite fishing kayaks company. Says on his linkedin.

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Post by jmmoxon »

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Re: EJ resigns

Post by Dave Manby »

Kayaks are far too cheap these days to allow the manufacturer enough profit margin to re-invest in the development of new boats, new fittings, events, sales support etc. You can argue as much as you like about the rate of inflation but kayaks are far better now-a-days: the plastic is better the fittings are better the designs are better and so there is no reason why the boats should be the same relative price.

Have a guess at the cost of a mould for a plastic kayak from concept to ready to produce the 1st trail boat out out it. OK go a number, then when you know that the fittings for the boat cost more than the shell you may have an idea of what a boat costs before you advertise it etc.

Do you question this? Jackson have been losing money for some time - you can buy a carbon Jed for less than a plastic Rockstar. Why because the freestyle market hasn't sold enough boats to cover the cost of the mould and then you realise that the investors have pulled the plug on Dagger Wavesport Perception because there was no point in throwing god money after bad.

What will happen with the US manufacturers - who knows but quality WW kayaks will cost more soon I suspect. Read Coran's article he says much the same.

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Re: EJ resigns

Post by Chalky723 »

Dave Manby wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:47 pm
who knows but quality WW kayaks will cost more soon I suspect.
For some people.

For those people that buy the second hand, usual scratches models that the "must have" brigade get rid of every 6 months, not much will change!!

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Re: EJ resigns

Post by Adrian Cooper »

But for all this doom and gloom Silverbirch are building a business on whitewater open canoes and no-one is telling me they are doing this for charity.

A carbon Jed is £1,750 and a plastic Rockstar is £1,250

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