BC's new Access Charter

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Mark Gawler
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BC's new Access Charter

Post by Mark Gawler » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:39 pm

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DaveBland
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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by DaveBland » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:31 pm

Only read the summary, but it seems they are using tone and language that says they WANT access to all waterways, rather than they believe they ALREADY HAVE access, and just want carification of the right in law.
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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by Steve Agar » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:24 pm

I'm impressed with the intention, but worried about the practicality. If this does eventually go to Parliament through a private member's bill, you can bet your bottom dollar that the compromise will end up that riparian owners will be able to limit access at certain times in a way that leaves us no further forward, but loses the unfettered access basis that many of us currently believe in. However, if it were subject to European law........

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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by chicklechives » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:35 am

Quite a nice vid to go with it. Pretty clear that the existing rights are being pushed.

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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:46 am

Steve Agar wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:24 pm
I'm impressed with the intention, but worried about the practicality. If this does eventually go to Parliament through a private member's bill, you can bet your bottom dollar that the compromise will end up that riparian owners will be able to limit access at certain times in a way that leaves us no further forward, but loses the unfettered access basis that many of us currently believe in.
This has been my argument for years, I still think the campaign should be to announce our interpretation of the law and our willingness to share with other 'stakeholders'.

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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:47 am

Steve Agar wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:24 pm
However, if it were subject to European law........
We'd be paying the anglers several billion pounds for us to stay off the rivers.

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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by bouncyboatbloke » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:06 pm

Sounds very similar to the NERC act that decimated the legal use RUPPS, [ ROADS USED AS PUBLIC PATHS ] by LEGAL trail bike riders. All through the discussions with DEFRA we were assured catagorically that this " would never come to pass ", " no need to campaign, there'snothing to worry about ", history now says otherwise. I wouldn't trust the current incumbant, " useless Eustace any further than a rat could chuck him.
The Barons and Baronesses that made up the hearing committe were ludicrously over willing to believe the lies and half truths gleefully fed to them by those with a vested interest in seeing the act passed. DO not expect a fair crack of the whip.
Pity fish don't get to have a say on the matter, " er let me see, get frightened by a passing kayak, or get me top lip ripped open for a bit of sport ", I don't think the jury would be out long on that one.
Mike

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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by DaveBland » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:52 pm

Okay so watched all the vids. They are excellently put together and do a great job. Exactly what you'd expect from an NSO.

One vid does have a short segment saying that they believe there's an established right of access, but that's all. It would have been nice to have that viewpoint spreada little wider throughout the videos, but I do like the way the general thrust of the campaign is taking the responsible high ground and not getting embroiled in detail.

Great job on the vids. The summary pdf document is significantly less well done though. Can't even get the grammar right in the intro.
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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by SPL » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:38 pm

Having paddled for 20yrs I would make several observations...

If you abide by signs saying no canoeing then those placing the signs will have no interest or need to discuss the matter.

European fishermen happily share the rivers.

The BCU try and good on them but I am not aware that they have made changes to my access. I still paddle the upper dart and Lynn when i want to and over the years the whingers have given up...if thats down to the BCU then fair play.

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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by Pam Bell » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:02 am

DaveBland wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:31 pm
Only read the summary, but it seems they are using tone and language that says they WANT access to all waterways, rather than they believe they ALREADY HAVE access, and just want carification of the right in law.
Adrian Cooper wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:46 am
...I still think the campaign should be to announce our interpretation of the law and our willingness to share with other 'stakeholders'.
BC wrote: Charter Section 1 Introduction
Access on English waterways is a matter which has been contested for more than 60 years. British Canoeing now believes that there is already a strong case to demonstrate an existing Public Right of Navigation (PRN) on all navigable rivers.
Until such time as the law is clarified, either in a court or through new legislation being enacted, British Canoeing will support the right of paddlers to use inland waters. It will promote opportunities for everyone to participate responsibly and actively protect the places we paddle.
BC wrote: Charter Section 3 current access legislation in England
British Canoeing believes, based on a wealth of historical evidence, that there is, under common law, a public right of navigation on all rivers which are physically capable of being navigated.
It is acknowledged that this position is firmly rejected by others.

British Canoeing believes it is for the Government to introduce modern, comprehensive legislation, as has been shown to work in Scotland
(Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003).
BC wrote: Charter Section 3 Access Arrangements
British Canoeing will no longer enter into or renew restrictive agreements based on an assumption of the need for permission to navigate.
However, British Canoeing will remain open to genuine agreements and environmental measures to protect wildlife, guided by the principle of taking the least restrictive option.

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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by DaveBland » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:06 am

That's a fair point Pam, but the comment you quoted me from was refering to the summary document, where it has absolutely no indication of BCs standpoint.
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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by Chris Bolton » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:42 am

DaveBland wrote:the summary document, where it has absolutely no indication of BCs standpoint
From the Summary (My underline):
1. Champion the case for fair, shared, sustainable open access on and along inland waters to be confirmed in law.
From the Summary
British Canoeing believes there is a strong case to demonstrate an existing right to navigation on rivers

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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:40 am

My preferred wording:


"British Canoeing believes there is an existing right to navigation on rivers"

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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by Chris Bolton » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:56 am

I think believing there's a strong case to demonstrate that something is true is more robust that just believing it's true. People believe all kinds of strange things without feeling that there's any need to demonstrate their truth.

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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:08 am

I agree that the word 'believe' can appear equivocal and certainly in terms of faith but I really don't think the 'strong case to demonstrate looks better. It sounds as like the opposing viewpoint in a legal argument. I feel it needs something more positive and that is my point.

Many paddlers have been involved in extensive research into the legal history and can establish that there is a legal right based on the information gathered. the Charter Section 3 quotation is much better, more forceful, it would have been a more appropriate wording for the summary.

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Re: BC's new Access Charter

Post by DaveBland » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:48 pm

Adrian's point exactly. The tone of the summary document just feels a bit wishy to me on this point. And more importantly, I don't think that an interested reader who is not aware of all the history of access isues would 'get' the established right of access viewpoint from this.

But Pam, please don't get me wrong – I'm super impressed with the effort and work that's been done and have already stated that the videos are excellent. It's fantastic to finally see a turnaround in the governing body's activities and actions.
dave

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