Charges at Mile End Mill

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uwcamerakev
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Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by uwcamerakev » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:46 pm

Has anybody experienced charges per person @ Mile End Mill recently?

Any idea what this is for ?
Use of the Car Park ?
Using the facilities ?
Ingress, Egress ?
Crossing the land ?

It's not excessive, just not obviously advertised as you enter the site, or indication of why a charge is made.

Many years ago we paid to use their facilities including the car parking, but that was clearly signed in the car park, so is this new rule or just the cafe enforcing an old agreement ?

TinyPaddler
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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by TinyPaddler » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:56 pm

Mate you beat me to it! I can't make it out sounds like access charge as it's per person, and that's not cool.

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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by neonbowhawk » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:14 am

Its been like that for ages. You sign in and pay your 3 quid. Its a small price to pay for using the site and possibly helping to keep it open. There are a lot of other more inconvenient places to park and egress the river instead.

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John K
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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by John K » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:49 am

TinyPaddler wrote:Mate you beat me to it! I can't make it out sounds like access charge as it's per person, and that's not cool.
It’s to keep the site available for us to use. It covers car parking, toilets, changing rooms, and using private land to access the river.

That’s cool. And a bargain.

We have no right to use this land. It’s not a public right of way. If paddlers consistently refuse to pay their way then eventually we’ll lose it. Then we’ll have something to moan about.

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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by Jim » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:41 pm

Yes, I've only really started using it over the last couple of years but it has always seemed clear that the car park is private land and that there is a £3 per person charge for using it (and the toilets/steps etc.). I've always found the lady that runs it quite amicable, at times we have even been able to arrange overnight parking there, although I suspect she will be less amicable to that now that she is having to lock the gate to ensure that people pay up.

Is it a charge for access when it applies even if you are only parking to use the cafe or picnic tables?

I must admit I am surprised how popular it is as an access point since as far as I'm concerned it is right in the middle of the run...

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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by LucyLou19 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:43 pm

Its private land. Therefore they can do what they like.

Note that now Canoe Wales no longer pays the farmer for access on the convenient A5 side of the Llugwy Forestry Falls section, access there has been withdrawn and you must now access that section on the very inconvenient Public ROW on river right. Unless of course you are PYB, or the Army , or any number of rescue organisations that are still paying.

uwcamerakev
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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by uwcamerakev » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:00 pm

Thanks for the updates, the old system worked well but was well signed.

It's been a long time since I paddled here, long before the Kayak shop left! I really should support the site more.

But there are so many rivers in N.Wales still to do...... ; )

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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by John K » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:20 pm

Not many with water levels that reliable though!

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Chalky723
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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by Chalky723 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:32 pm

uwcamerakev wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:00 pm
But there are so many rivers in N.Wales still to do...... ; )
Off you go then.... (Hope the rain holds out for you).

D
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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by Franky » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:53 pm

Jim wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:41 pm
Is it a charge for access when it applies even if you are only parking to use the cafe or picnic tables?
It doesn't seem clear what it's a charge for, or who has to pay it. I'd been assuming from reading the first posts here, and in the parallel thread, that it was a de facto access charge - which I don't object to, on private land. But now someone's said it's a parking charge per passenger, it's not clear why paddlers egressing who don't have their cars parked there are being asked for money. Either it's a parking charge or it's an access charge, but surely the leaseholder can't decide what it is for each individual user of the facility. Or maybe they can? I know nothing of the legalities, but to show good faith, they could at least put up signs visible in the car park stating what their policy is.

I've used the car park without getting in the water, when I was picking up a paddler who had been doing a WWSR course there. I didn't pay any money, did not see any signs telling me to pay money, and was not asked by anyone to pay any money.

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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by jmmoxon » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:15 pm

Post on river active Facebook page shows sign at entrance, whilst not large it is pretty clear - "cost for using this site is £3.OO per person", unfortunately people aren't likely to be looking at it whilst leaving a busy road.
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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by stiffy » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:23 pm

The £3 is for use of the site/parking /toilets etc etc. Just be honest, if you are going to use the facilities, just go in reception and pay. It's 3 quid?? You would pay that for a posh coffee and never question it. Ultimately if people don't pay, we'll lose a great facility. Stop using the access argument to get out of paying.

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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by Chalky723 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:34 am

Franky wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:53 pm
it's not clear why paddlers egressing who don't have their cars parked there are being asked for money. Either it's a parking charge or it's an access charge, but surely the leaseholder can't decide what it is for each individual user of the facility. Or maybe they can? I know nothing of the legalities, but to show good faith, they could at least put up signs visible in the car park stating what their policy is.
Bloody long walk out with no car of any sort there.... Maybe the fact that they're using the space to "egress", get changed, strap their boats on someone's roof etc...

But you have no problems paying the £7 (£14) charge for the Tryweryn per paddler, why does £3 bother you?

I'm the other way round - I'm not a fan of the £7 charge, but have resigned myself to having to pay it, but I've lost more than £3 down the back of the sofa whilst typing this!

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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by Franky » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:27 pm

Chalky723 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:34 am
But you have no problems paying the £7 (£14) charge for the Tryweryn per paddler, why does £3 bother you?
It doesn't bother me at all. I was just expressing sympathy with the misunderstandings. I will pay the parking fee in future regardless of of how little time I spend there and regardless of whether I get on the water. Their land, their rules.

I would say that the attitude of the leaseholders, particularly on the occasion mentioned in the parallel thread, sounds heavy-handed, considering the lack of prominent signage. I understand their frustration at people not paying, but if they want to avoid these misunderstandings, they should advertise their charges clearly (that is, on a sign that you don't have to get out of your car in the middle of a steep driveway to read). That way, there will be no need for any unpleasantness on either side.

Since you brought up the comparison - and I ask purely out of interest, not to make a point - why you are happy to pay to cross private land to access a river at MEM, but not at Canalfon Tryweryn, a managed river with much more comprehensive facilities? Is it the difference in cost?

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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by Jim » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:23 pm

I can't work out how to copy/link facebook content here, but there is a photo of the apparently invisible sign on facebook (taken at night yet I don't have any trouble seeing it in the photo). Apparently the sign has been in place for 3 years.

Apparently it is going to be moved onto the gate to make it even more obvious, since the gate will now remain locked and you will have to call the office (No. on sign) to get in or out.

For those quibbling about the details the sign says:
Monday - Friday 0900 - 1700
Saturday and Sunday 0830-1700
All visitors to the site must sign in at the office
Cost for using the site is £3 per person

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John K
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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by John K » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:36 pm

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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by Chalky723 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:59 pm

Franky wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:27 pm
Why you are happy to pay to cross private land to access a river at MEM, but not at Canalfon Tryweryn, a managed river with much more comprehensive facilities? Is it the difference in cost?
Yep.

The only facility I ever use at CT are the cafe & the loo. I find £3 to be a reasonable amount for access to a loo, a cafe & somewhere to chuck my boat in/out. I've resigned myself to the £7 at CT now, buggered if I'd pay the non-BCU £14 rate for the privilege though - you have to admit that's a bit cheeky!

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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by proadventurepete » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:54 pm

A little background on the site.
The fees have, as far as I remember gone down in the last 32 years that I have been paddling there.
Please consider supporting the site even if you just play on the way down the river, various tenants have invested a lot in the site Over the last 3 decades. This investment has kept the site fun to paddle and a great coaching resource. Just maintaining the car park is a major expense. Mark and Kirsteen have improved the major access points, in times gone by the access to the top pool was a rocky track over fences. The site has also been the catalyst for year round access from horseshoe to town, something that only came about through years of negotiations with all the major stakeholders including the landlord at Mile End Mill, Natural Resources Wales, local and county councillors and the Welsh Assembly. Before this we got to paddle from Horseshoe to Town three times a year.

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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by davebrads » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:44 pm

proadventurepete wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:54 pm
. The site has also been the catalyst for year round access from horseshoe to town, something that only came about through years of negotiations with all the major stakeholders including the landlord at Mile End Mill, Natural Resources Wales, local and county councillors and the Welsh Assembly. Before this we got to paddle from Horseshoe to Town three times a year.
In sorry but that's not the way I remember it. Year round access came about because paddlers got fed up of the limited access being offered and decided to ignore all agreements. Several stakeholders (including the owner of MEM) went to some lengths to prevent this from happening, at least without charging paddlers for the use of the river, but since they didn't have a legal leg to stand on and because paddlers refused to acquiesce to their demands they eventually had to give up. I am sure that all of this is documented on this forum if you can go back far enough. It is perhaps because of MEM's dark history in this matter that certain people with long memories are somewhat antagonistic when the subject of access charges on the Dee comes up.

For the record I do think that the new leaseholders are not cut from the same cloth and should be supported in their efforts to run a sustainable business on the site with resulting benefits for paddlers.
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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by SimonMW » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:20 am

The new owners are really supportive of the sport. Look, it's a private car park, and the charges *are* signed (as someone posted above). The owners can charge what they like, and you are lucky it is as low as it is. £3 is less than a bleedin' pint of beer these days so I'm at pains to fathom how anyone can be so tight as to find that objectionable. Yes they make some money from rafting, but you aren't going to keep a site like that going from a few rafts and selling some cups of tea.

This just proves my theory about how tight kayakers are. It's clear it's private land, so don't play the "it's not clear I need to pay anything" card. Do you think it's just there for you to do what you please with? Just pay the £3 and stop whining. If you don't like it you are free to park in the town or at the top car park by horseshoe. This has nothing to do with river access. Some of you complain that you are only paying for a car to park and aren't using the facilities. Sorry but that's not true. MEM is a managed site, and the river on that section is modified for our benefit.

£3 is nothing.

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Re: Charges at Mile End Mill

Post by Adrian Cooper » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:49 am

And just to reinforce Simon's point, the tenants are at liberty to charge whatever they like; if they chose to charge £50 per day, my guess is they wouldn't get any customers and would go out of business, people on this forum would complain bitterly but that would be just tough. Market forces dictate that they can charge what they can get away with but it would need to be enough to cover their costs, including the cost of the lease, maintenance of the carpark, business rates on the building (if any), electricity and water and of course a salary for staff. If anyone would like to make a stab at the annual cost and see how it compares with the likely income, please feel free, but until you have done this, you cannot argue that the charge is either unreasonable or incorrectly calculated.

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