River Derwent - Froggatt Bridge sign

From the Warwickshire Avon in the south, to the Trent in the north
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damppaddler
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River Derwent - Froggatt Bridge sign

Post by damppaddler » Thu May 16, 2013 12:55 pm

Image

this is the sign on the path next to froggatt bridge (in Derbyshire)

I spoke to the police about this as I wanted clarification on why the police were putting up a sign about possible civil offences (I know the police didn't put the sign up) - they said they would investigate

They call me back today to say they have looked at the sign - it is not their sign and they would be doing nothing about it

I asked them if they were ok with it saying 'Police Notice' and all they kept saying is "we have looked at the sign and we are quite happy with it'

Am I missing something here? How can someone put up a sign, making it look like it is from the police and the police not caring?

nutterboy
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Re: River Derwent - Froggatt Bridge sign

Post by nutterboy » Thu May 16, 2013 12:58 pm

Just put up a 'police notice' saying that angling on these waters is prohibited in order to allow canoeing. if the police are not bothered then surely 2 can play at that game?
temperature is a state of mind

tadpole
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Re: River Derwent - Froggatt Bridge sign

Post by tadpole » Thu May 16, 2013 1:04 pm

Brilliant idea!

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: River Derwent - Froggatt Bridge sign

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu May 16, 2013 1:16 pm

damppaddler wrote: I asked them if they were ok with it saying 'Police Notice' and all they kept saying is "we have looked at the sign and we are quite happy with it'

Am I missing something here? How can someone put up a sign, making it look like it is from the police and the police not caring?
The point you are missing is that they are stupid and didn't anticipate a follow-up question to their inadequate answer.

snuggle_bunny
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Re: River Derwent - Froggatt Bridge sign

Post by snuggle_bunny » Thu May 16, 2013 4:09 pm

under raparian law nobody can legaly own a river. unless you put to shore on private land you are not commiting ANY offence. If you do put to shore on private land then this is a civil offence and not a criminal one. The only legal right the landowner has is to ask you to leave by a route of their choosing There is no such law as tresspass in it's own right. There are 3 torts which constitute civil tresspass:-
1. TO enter private land causing or with intent to cause criminal damage
2. To threaten the landowner or friends/ family etc
3. To do something which is POTENTIALY hazardous

It is up to the landowner to prove his/her case in a civil action which they must bring. You are not legaly obliged to give any personal details accept to a police officer in uniform, a british waterways or other waterboard bailif/officer or an enviroment agency officer

Unless of course anyone else knows different

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andypagett
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Re: River Derwent - Froggatt Bridge sign

Post by andypagett » Thu May 16, 2013 9:38 pm

Similar one further down the Derwent at Church Wilne

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Pete K
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Re: River Derwent - Froggatt Bridge sign

Post by Pete K » Sun May 19, 2013 10:12 am

damppaddler, would you post the contact details you used so that I can (and hopefully others) make a similar complaint to the police.

damppaddler
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Re: River Derwent - Froggatt Bridge sign

Post by damppaddler » Sun May 19, 2013 11:09 pm

Pete K wrote:damppaddler, would you post the contact details you used so that I can (and hopefully others) make a similar complaint to the police.

Latest update on this

I spoke to Peak Park and it has been confirmed as a Public Footpath
I understand Picnicking is one activity you are allow to do on a public foot path (as long as you don't block the path)
You are not allowed to place intimidating or misleading signs on a public foot path

This sign is intimidating (saying Police Notice) and misleading (saying No Picnicking), so the helpful person at Peak Park suggested I contact the County Council Highways department (as they are responsible for Public Footpaths) and get them to investigate the sign.

I have did this on Friday - if I don't get anywhere with them, then I will publish a list of people to complain to.

I will keep you all informed

damppaddler
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Re: River Derwent - Froggatt Bridge sign

Post by damppaddler » Fri May 24, 2013 11:39 am

The highways department have got back to me a few days ago

The only thing they are going to do is to ask the police to look into this again as it says 'police notice'

I originally said ok to this, but I have been looking into this further

It is a breach of the National Parks and Access to the countryside Act 1949
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo ... -pb3-l1g42

Penalty for displaying on footpaths notices deterring public use.
1. If any person places or maintains, on or near any way shown on a definitive map, or on a revised map prepared in definitive form, as a public path or road used as a public path, a notice containing any false or misleading statement likely to deter the public from using the way, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F80level 1 on the standard scale].
2. The court before whom a person is convicted of an offence under the last foregoing subsection may, in addition to or in substitution for the imposition of a fine, order him to remove the notice in respect of which he is convicted within such period, not being less than four days, as may be specified in the order; and if he fails to comply with the order he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding two pounds for each day on which the failure continues.
3. It shall be the duty of a highway authority to enforce the provisions of this section as respects any public path, or road used as a public path, for which they are the highway authority; and no proceedings in respect of an offence under those provisions shall be brought except by the authority required by this subsection to enforce those provisions as respects the path or road in question [F81or by the council of the district [F82or, where they are not the highway authority, the council of the Welsh county or county borough] in which the notice is placed or maintained].


The sign is misleading - it says 'police notice' when the police have admitted it is not their sign
it also says 'no picnicking' - picnicking is allowed on public foot paths provided you don't block the path
It is the highways authority to enforce this law, so I will be taking it back to them and asking them to prosicute

rogersavery
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Re: River Derwent - Froggatt Bridge sign

Post by rogersavery » Fri May 24, 2013 2:40 pm

I managed to speak the highways man at the council and asked them to prosecute under the law mentioned above

He said they won't as a prosicution will take too long ("if we took all the offenders to court we would not have time to do anything") - which I understand, but is a bit frustrating

He confirmed the police are looking into the sign still and they will get back to him. He also mentioned that if the police do nothing then they would decide what action to take

They will keep me informed...

waterboatman
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Re: River Derwent - Froggatt Bridge sign

Post by waterboatman » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:04 pm

In the interests of fairness, whilst I wholeheartedly deplore the countryside being plastered with signs, I can't see how you can interpret this sign as "deterring public use of the footpath" as a footpath. The sign just states that it is a public footpath through private land which is true (as the private farm is not access land) and it asks people to keep to the path which is a reasonable thing to ask walkers passing through farm land. Talking to local dog walkers etc, it seems a sign like this has been in place at Froggatt bridge for over 20 years, I was told it goes back to the time when the pine trees were planted by the farmer to deter picknickers after several of his animals were either injured by broken glass or by eating plastic bags etc despite signs at the time asking people not to leave litter. Whatever we might think of the other contents of the sign I don't think we can argue it deters use of the footpath in the way a sign saying "angry bull loose" or "farmer prone to shooting people" would!

damppaddler
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Re: River Derwent - Froggatt Bridge sign

Post by damppaddler » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:32 am

waterboatman wrote: I can't see how you can interpret this sign as "deterring public use of the footpath" as a footpath.
It clearly states no picnicking - which is a perfectly legal activity to do on a public footpath

Latest update - the police have instructed the fishing club to remove the sign and they also told the club to agree the wording with derbyshire county council highways dept before putting up a new sign

As of monday the sign was still up, but it should be down very soon

martins1
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Re: River Derwent - Froggatt Bridge sign

Post by martins1 » Fri May 15, 2015 7:25 pm

Hi

We were down there this evening and the sign is still there, although the words 'police' and 'picnicking' have been blanked - anyone know of any progress on the sign removal?

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