Mystery Boats^

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MikeB
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Mystery Boats^

Post by MikeB » Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:00 pm

from Steve Corston, a request to help identify two "mystery boats" - can anyone help or shed light on them?

The first one is 18 foot long, 18 inch beam, 16 inch at the water line. Made of fibre glass it unusually has the seam down the centre of the deck and hull shown on image 3 before a change of colour.


Image

Image

Image



This one is 17 foot long, 24 inch beam. Fibre glass, normal construction with deck and hull joined at gunwale. Swedish form with the cockpit set well back.

Image

Image

Image

I'm sure I bumped into someone going round Little Cumbrae on the Clyde in one of these in February. It was red or orange, and the guy paddling it told me he'd made it at school, some 20 or more years ago. If he told me the name, I can't recall it.

Mike.
Last edited by MikeB on Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RichardCree
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Post by RichardCree » Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:15 pm

I think the blue one is a sea hawk, probably need to wait for the older readers to confirm :)

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capsized8
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Older reader

Post by capsized8 » Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:19 pm

RichardCree wrote:I think the blue one is a sea hawk, probably need to wait for the older readers to confirm :)
Sorry but everything is in soft focus these days!
peace and good padlin.

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Pelagic
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Post by Pelagic » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:35 pm

The first one looks very like an Angmagssalik.
but the dimensions are wrong, if memory serves they were 18` 8" with a 19" beam. Made in plywood by Granta and Kayel among others.
I suppose it could have been modified and then a mould taken?
a mystery indeed........

Phil

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Richard Uren
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Post by Richard Uren » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:06 pm

My thought for the first kayak is the angmassalik, the second certainly looks like a Seahawk. Manufactured by trylon in the seventies there were also a couple of moulds knocking around. My 1st sea boat was a seahawk circa 1978. Stornaway canoe club also had a few in the mid seveties.
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Mike Marshall
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Kayak recognition

Post by Mike Marshall » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:55 pm

I would go with Angmassalik on the first one. Although unusual in glass?
Normally built in wood.
Dont know the second that well.
MikeM

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ChrisS
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Post by ChrisS » Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:15 pm

The first one certainly does look like an Angmagssalik.

Rockpool
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Post by Rockpool » Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:47 am

There is/was? a plywood version of this Angmagssalik hanging up in the Paddler's Return bar at the Anglesey Centre. It's different to the Granta model being shorter, wider and with a curvy cockpit. I think it was donated by Rowland Woollven

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Post by steamstevec » Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:07 am

Many thanks to you all.
I got the measurements for the blue boat wrong. Shame on me.
It is actually 22" beam and is 16' 9" long.
The cockpit is 15" X 26.5"

Further measurements on the brown kayak are that the cockpit is nearly round and 17" diameter.
The bottom is nearly flat in the centre and 12" wide with the sides flairing up to 18" maximum.

In his book Derek Hutchinson says "Some firms started producing boats moddled very closely on Eskimo designs, but which demanded a very high degree of skill from the men paddling them. The Tyne Greenland, the Ottersports Angmagssalik and the Klepper Eskimo were all this type."

The Ottersports Angmagssalik can be discounted as it is the plywood kit later produced by Granta. But are the other two possibilities?

Thanks again.
Steve
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ChrisS
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Post by ChrisS » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:18 am

Tyne were a folding boat manufacturer and made a folding greenland kayak. Klepper were, and still are, are a folding boat manufacturer.

goliver
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Post by goliver » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:44 am

Tyne made fibreglass boats during the 60's and early 70's. I can recall very heavy chopped strand touring boats with a 'tin lid' deck join. Can't recall them making a glass sea kayak though.

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Post by Bertie.. » Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:21 pm

The first does appear to be an angmassalik, looking almost identical to mine (I suspect the homemade nature of the boat is why it doesn't quite look right).

In sea kayaking history, a gentleman by the name of Oliver Cock (first BCU Director of Coaching) owned one painted red with modified dimensions. It was nicknamed the 'red spear'.

I suppose I could go home tonight and measure it to see how the dimensions relate...

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Pelagic
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Post by Pelagic » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:21 pm

Hi Bertie,
Oliver apparently got Ken Littedyke (designer of Kayel Kayaks ) to built him the first one when Ken was working as a woodwork teacher. He came into Kens class one day with a skin boat and said " make me one like this in plywood" thus was the Angmagssalik born..................presumably the original skin boat was from Angmagssalik in Greenland.

Phil

Do you think boat no1 may be "the red spear" of legend?

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Post by Bertie.. » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:25 pm

Pelagic wrote: Phil

Do you think boat no1 may be "the red spear" of legend?
it was a thought..

I can't remember which book I read it in, it might be Oliver's very own 'I paddled my own canoe' or maybe in one of Derek Hutchinson's.

I had the pleasure of meeting Oliver a few years ago.. a very unassuming, humble person.

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Post by NickB » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:18 pm

Klepper also made Fibreglass boats in the 70's, I don't know whether they ever made a Sea Kayak though. The blue one is definitely a Trylon Sea Hawk.
Cheers
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ChrisS
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Post by ChrisS » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:37 pm

Perhaps everyone is convinced that the first one is an Angmagssalik, or based on/moulded from one, because it is an East Greenland design, and as far as I know the Angmagssalik (which is still available as a kit) is the one and only commercially produced example of one. Most greenlandic designs are based on West Greenland models.

Rich Best

Post by Rich Best » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:40 pm

I'm pretty sure the first is an Angmagssalik. I have one, and the shape of the bow and stern is identical. But from memory I think these kayaks are a little longer and slightly wider, but I imagine they vary. Mine is basically plywood, but the deck is reinforced with glass or resin of some description.

Richard

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ChrisS
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Post by ChrisS » Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:56 pm

Dimensions given in Geoffrey Hunter's "Angmagssalik Round Britain" are 18 feet 8 inches long by 19 inches across the beam, with a bow like a sword fish and the lure of a beauty queen. I have one in the shed. It sounds as if everyone does!

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Post by Bertie.. » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:44 am

hell, I thought I had the only left in the world and I was just planning on storing it then selling it for a fortune to a sea kayak museum....

oh well, ebay it is then! ;-)

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Post by steamstevec » Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:21 pm

Many thanks for all the help Gents,
It seems safe to say that the blue boat is a Sea Hawk. Richard Uren says about moulds knocking arround. This ties in with the boat as when I got it the coaming / seat was supplied but not fitted. So obviously not a factory build.

The brown boat is still a mystery. Usually people say Angmassalik but dimentions and material are both wrong.

Best wishes
Steve
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It's the longest thing your going to do.

DaveM
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Angmassalik

Post by DaveM » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:28 pm

There is no doubt that the first is an early Angmassalik, the deck and cockpit were later changed, supposedly to make construction from kits easier.

Bertie et al,
please can you take some measurements and photos of the cockpit area, coaming, templates of the bow deck beams & bulkhead, plus anything else useful to re-create that beautiful deck and cockpit.
How was the coaming made?

I paddled one regularly about 1970 when I was 14, quite the most amazing boat I've ever been in, though not as fast as it looks (compared to a race kayak).
I have long wanted to build another one with the curved deck, I didn't think there were any around. Of course I'd have to scale it up a bit now.
I think my daughter would love the original design as much as I did.

Bertie, any chance of taking it to the Weymouth coaching update? Perhaps I could make the templates and draw the deck up for the benefit of anyone interested.

Dave

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Angmassalik

Post by DaveM » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:34 pm

Now I look at the cockpit, I seem to recall that the original coaming was a flat circle set at about 30 degrees.

There seems little doubt about the hull and bow deck.

Dave

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Post by Bertie.. » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:34 pm

There's every chance of me bringing it to the Weymouth Coaching Update - good idea, as I never seem to have the time to do half of the things I say I will!

Provided it is used on a 'you bend it, you mend it' basis, I'd be happy for people to have a go - it's fair to say they are an experience to paddle.

The cockpit coaming on mine appears to have been a ring cut in a sheet of ply, with a smaller (external diameter) ring cut to sit beneath it.

There is also another Angmassalik hanging in Weymouth Outdoor Education Centre, but it's a bit of a basket case (but seems to support the view that everyone seems to have one!)

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Post by ChrisS » Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:21 pm

My example was made by Rockpool. He surveyed it after making it and still has the data on an Excel file I believe.

The Only Ant!
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How much OLDER!

Post by The Only Ant! » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:51 pm

RichardCree wrote:I think the blue one is a sea hawk, probably need to wait for the older readers to confirm :)
The blue boat certianly looks like the Sea Hawk I remember. Amomst my friends it was affectionetly known as the 'Big Banana' It was certainly the fastest sea boat in our fleet. I sold mine in about 1994 having owned it for 20 years. I would insert some pics but I can't see how (maybe I'm toooo old.[/img]

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Post by steamstevec » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:08 pm

Bertie.. wrote:
Pelagic wrote: Phil

Do you think boat no1 may be "the red spear" of legend?
it was a thought..


Has anybody got more information on "the Red Spear of legend"?

Best wishes
Steve
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It's the longest thing your going to do.

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Re: How much OLDER!

Post by AllanJ » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:57 am

The Only Ant! wrote:
RichardCree wrote:I think the blue one is a sea hawk, probably need to wait for the older readers to confirm :)
The blue boat certianly looks like the Sea Hawk I remember. Amomst my friends it was affectionetly known as the 'Big Banana' It was certainly the fastest sea boat in our fleet. I sold mine in about 1994 having owned it for 20 years. I would insert some pics but I can't see how (maybe I'm toooo old.[/img]
Here's mine;
Image
On a very calm day circa 1995. So calm you could paddle up and touch the Worm. Not a bad old boat - I only sold it to make room for the double - although the exaggerated bow didn't serve much purpose except to catch the wind.

Allan

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Post by Jersey Kayak » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:54 pm

I agree the first is an “angmassalik, the second certainly looks like a Seahawk”.

I owned an angmassalik back in the mid 70’s. My father and I built one from a design we measured up. It is quite possible that this could be why the design varies from the manufactured model. Any good carpenter would –like my Father- have seen this as a great challenge. My kayak had a much more rounded cockpit. I think I recall the design we measured up also had a very round and tiny cockpit. Later designs had a larger cockpit I think.

I undertook some of my first open crossings to les Minquiers, :Les Ecrehous, Chausey in this craft. Main problem was the lack of storage space for gear. I ended up carrying the small and heavy items while my pals carried the light but bulky kit. It was a great boat to paddle. Not as fast as you’d assume and rather tippy. However, by leaning on one chine it was ok, unless you day dreamed, in which case I’d end up having to roll. I once got caught offshore near Les Minquiers reef (12 miles south of jersey) in a 5. I was very comfortable paddling in this craft. Being so low it did not suffer from much problem with the wind but it was a wet paddle. It certainly made me perfect my paddle skills.

At this time we had a Sea hawk mould bought form Trilon. This was a popular self build design at a time when there were few sea kayaks about. It was a pig in a beam wind and would weather cock a lot. I think I recall a Dutch friend mentioning that this design was subsequently re modelled in Holland.

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