Werner or Lendal Paddes^

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Mike Marshall
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Werner or Lendal Paddes^

Post by Mike Marshall » Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:08 am

Currently I paddle with Lendal cranked Nordkapps in lovely CRF!!
However, change of boat coming up and so some spares or new main paddles are required.
Werner Corryvreckans look nice (but dear)!
Anyone paddling Werner paddles in preference to Lendals?
Anyone tested Werners?
Oh and while we are discussing..re Lendal - Nordkapp or Kinetic Wing blades???


Mike Marshall
Snowy north Wales...uuurrrgh!!

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Pelagic
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Post by Pelagic » Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:04 pm

Werners Mike
every time, if you can wait a little try the Werner Ikelos, I believe stocks are arriving in the spring, its the best sea-touring blade I have ever used.

Phil

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Jim
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Post by Jim » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:11 pm

I haven't tried Weners touring/sea paddles but in general I'd say that Werner and Lendal are equal in terms of materials and construction so concentrate on things like blade shape, features, and availability.

For splits, are werner making a locking joint now? If not the only way to go for split paddles has to be Lendal Paddlok.

As for what blade is best, if Phil says Ikelos is best, it's a fair bet that it is! Only thing is that blade choice is very personal and depends on the type of paddling and type of paddler you are.
Personally I use Kinetic Touring now and find them great for long days on the water, I do get left behind a bit in a sprint though! I really should try some Kinetic Wings and see what all the fuss is about, and presumably I will get a shot of the Ikelos at Easter? :-) My old WW Lasers were similar to Nordkapps and I found them hard work over long distances, mind you they were kind of heavy.... I should probably look at CF Nordkapps at some point as well!

JIM

ian.miller
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Post by ian.miller » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:34 pm

I paddle with an old set of CRF cranked Nordkapps but will probably change to Kinetiks next time round trading acceleration for a slightly lower gear. I have tried the Kinetic wings and was impressed but they are pricey and not a so forgiving as a normal blade. . I found this out when demonstrating a Scull and let the angle of the paddle change slightly only to find myself demoing a roll. They were also quite long and would have been better a lot shorter. I think Lendal rcommend this.
One last point, I have over the last few years loaned paddles to people who haven't realised the limitations of carbon shafts and I have had no problems getting the subsequent repair carried out by Lendal. It would be worth checking the repair options on Werners.

Canuck
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Post by Canuck » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:31 pm

I've been using N12 nordcapps for seven years and the blades are as tough as anything else out there.

The Werner ikelos blade which most of my friends are using has no spine along the backside. This makes it more effective than the lendal when doing somthing like a low brace turn, and the foam core adds considerable bouyancy.
The cranked portion of the loom is also geometrically different, and the oval at the grip is the same on both sides,as opposed to the lendal with the bulge only on the control hand side. [The newest lendal I own is seven years old so I can't say for sure if they still do things the same]


My next paddle will be a Werner.

Fast Pat
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Post by Fast Pat » Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:32 pm

I paddle with a set of kinetic wings on a four way split as my main paddle, with kinetic touring blades on a bent shaft as my split – also four way for maximum flexibility.

Having paddled with the wings for nearly two years, I cannot fault them, once your body has adjusted and you’re using them efficiently you’ll never want to go back to a conventional paddle. As a consequence of my preference for the wings the Kinetic tourers have seen very little use – normally loaned to others to experiment with the cranked shaft.

I’ve only tried the Werners for a short paddle, whilst someone else tried the wings, when changing back from the wings all paddles feel odd so it is difficult to comment. As said above Lendal do superb after market care – you’ll also be buying something made in Britain!

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Jim
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Post by Jim » Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:02 pm

Canuck wrote:The cranked portion of the loom is also geometrically different, and the oval at the grip is the same on both sides,as opposed to the lendal with the bulge only on the control hand side.
This reminds me, the crank on a Werner is different to the crank on a Lendal!
That is to say the hand position is slightly behind the centreline on a Lendal, giving a balancing castor effect to forward strokes (who uses reverse strokes on the sea?), whilst the Werner is directly in line making it totally neutral (like a straight shaft). Both have the blade centreline and shaft centreline coincident making them feel much more natural than double torque cranks. I'd be interested to find out how much effect the very small differences between Werners Neutral Bent Shaft, and Lendals Modified Crank Shaft actually have - if most paddlers can even feel it for example?

It used to be common practice in the UK to only add an oval to the control side of the shaft (composite shafts with a glued on strip), I'm not sure why Lendal still do it but I'm sure if you are getting paddles custom made you could ask them to do it to both sides! Personally I find it quite useful when using assymetric blades to know by feel if I have them in the right hand before I even take a stroke (think of situations when you may have to let go of the paddle for a while to see what I mean!).

I think the real question is whether your new paddles will be your primary set or spare set? Like I say I wouldn't bother with any other type of splits now!

JIM

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Mike Marshall
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Lendal or Werners

Post by Mike Marshall » Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:32 pm

Jim,
From my point of view I would retire the Lendals to the deck and use the new paddles as my primary pair.

My Lendals are splits, however they were splits long before the padlock arrangement came along and cannot be modified, I believe.
I used to tape them up with insulation tape to join them, until one cold winters day on Barmouth bar when the tape hadn't sealed and the paddles rotated!!! Really Deep recovery!!
Bought a Stainless spring clip in the end and carefully drilled a hole in them! Still use the tape though to seal the tube.
Also replaced a blade after breaking one first time I used the paddles :-(
They got caught in the boardwalk at LLandudno between the wooden slats and snapped off the lowest quarter of the blade, just as I was sliding off in the kayak to go and test them!!! Grrrrrrr!

I guess I need to see some Werners and the newer Lendals.

Regards
Mike

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MikeB
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Re: Lendal or Werners

Post by MikeB » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:57 pm

Mike Marshall wrote: My Lendals are splits, however they were splits long before the padlock arrangement came along and cannot be modified, I believe.
Lendal could replace the shaft - with a Padlock version - I had that done last year when I broke my one-piece - - -

Cheaper than buying a whole new paddle.

Mike.

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Post by CaileanMac » Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:44 pm

Image

;-)

Rob G
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Re: Werner or Lendal Paddes

Post by Rob G » Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:14 am

Mike Marshall wrote:Currently I paddle with Lendal cranked Nordkapps in lovely CRF!!
However, change of boat coming up and so some spares or new main paddles are required.
Werner Corryvreckans look nice (but dear)!
Anyone paddling Werner paddles in preference to Lendals?
Anyone tested Werners?
Oh and while we are discussing..re Lendal - Nordkapp or Kinetic Wing blades???


Mike Marshall
Snowy north Wales...uuurrrgh!!
Mike,

I have a pair of Lendal's; one as a cf kinetic and the other a nordkapp in carbon-plasticy kinda thing. I use the latter for rocks and surf. As both have the 4 piece paddlock system It makes travel a breeze. I broke one part of the shaft and spent 50 bucks USD to fix it. My local dealer had one tube in stock so I was good to go quickly. You can fix a Werner but it has to go back to the plant, or in your case, likely the importer. Their 4 piece system of which I have on an older Molokai is good but not as good as the paddlock. It is the older spring button design.

The Ikelos is a very sweet design. A couple of buddies have them and I have enjoyed using them from time to time. To me it has the slicey, controllability of the kinetic with the power of the nordkapp blade. Still, I like the repair/interchangeability of the lendal better. If you live in the states Werner's customer service is extremely good, abroad their importer would probably do a good job, but I do not know for sure.

Rob G

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MikeB
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Post by MikeB » Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:39 pm

Thank you Cailean! Before the inevitable comments start from Helen and other, may I say that the paddle in question had spent many miles flapping in the breeze on my roofrack, and on that particular weekend had been subjected to being bent upwards when I opened the rear hatch on the car having forgotten to take the wretched thing off first!

That I should stress was AFTER a certain Mr MacLeoad had been most sociable on the Friday night and we'd been testing the quality of a number of very fine malts in the bar. A considerable number as I recall. Vaguely.

And then I sat on it getting out of the boat - - - -

But I still maintain the paddle had been excessively stressed BEFORE I abused it further - LOL.

I'm now a big Padlock / two-part-paddle fan - in fact, I'd never buy a one-oiece paddle again.

Mike.

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Post by robmackenna » Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:41 pm

I've been paddling with a 1 piece carbon cranked Werner for the last few years and found them excellent. They're light weight and very durable.

For 2 piece and even 4 piece paddles the Lendal Paddlok provides a good solution giving a stable joint. With their range of paddle shapes and paddle and shaft materials it's possible to create a set of blades to meet most requirements.

Another paddle range worth considering is the Epic range. They have a very clever length-lock centre joint that allows you to extend the length of the shaft by up to 10cm and vary the feather angle to any position. They are light weight and well constructed. If you're interested in wings they do them too.

Rob

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Post by CaileanMac » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:43 pm

MikeB - Yes would own up drinking a number of fine malts on the evening in question whilst in your company but I did not ply you with more than one dram and you did drink it of your own accord...

Werners feel different from Lendals and again different from Epic blades. There are slight difference's in terms of quality, design and manufacture but really it's down to which one feel's right for you, out on the water. If possible demo three sets together in one session would be ideal. (possible?)

As to joints in 2 / 3 / 4 piece paddles I don't think anyone has come close yet to Lendal and their paddlok system for a very durable and solid system for joining paddles.

CaileanMac

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steve-m
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Arm Problems

Post by steve-m » Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:04 am

Just as an aside on this thread, i am a newcomer to sea kayaking so do not have much to contribute. I have had both wrist and elbow problems with kayaking (poor technique - I know) and on discussing the matter with Brookbank settled on Lendal Archipelago blades on the longest (220) lightest cranked shaft.
It seems like it was a good choice, we did a weeks trip round Mull, Staffa and the Treshnish last summer and my arms were fine for the whole trip. I may not be the fastest paddler on the sea but at least my arms still work when i get to the campsite!
Would the wing paddles mentioned in this thread be of any help to those of us with wrist and elbow problems?
Regards Steve
Steve-M Shropshire

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Douglas Wilcox
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Post by Douglas Wilcox » Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:46 am

Steve>
Would the wing paddles mentioned in this thread be of any help to those of us with wrist and elbow problems?
Hello Steve, I have arthritis in my wrists, elbows and shoulders. For touring I have found Lendal Kinetic Wings on cranked shaft with a variable feather centre joint set to 30 degrees to be very good. I swapped paddles with a friend who had a 90 degree feather. My control wrist hurt for 6 months after that. I do not lend my paddles to anyone now! I also have a shorter straight shaft that I use with nordkapp blades and 15 degree feather in surf. The short shaft lets you get more quick strokes in to get better acceleration.

Have you ever seen Sean Morley's arms go as he catches a wave?

I have had no problems in wind with low feather angles in but in a bow rudder stroke, you do need to apply a little more rotation to get the angle right.

Douglas

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Zoe Newsam
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Post by Zoe Newsam » Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:31 am

I think this comes down very much to personal choice- you have to try out different blades / shafts / feather angles / shaft lengths and find out what works for you.

Personally I use Lendal Kinetic Touring blades on a cranked 210cm Varilok shaft, usually set to 45 degrees- the carbon version. It suits my hand size, as the Lendal shafts are quite small. I use Werners for river paddling, though, and love them too. I'm sure their sea version would be lovely.

Werner however do 2 shaft sizes, and their standard locking joint can do both right and left handed. The composite Werner blades are not noticeably heavier than their carbon ones ans they're probably more durable- so I guess you could save money by buying composites.

My partner has been using Lendal Nordkapps for sea paddling, but as he has large hands, he's found they become very sore after a long-ish day out because of the small shaft diameter. Conversely he's used Werner blades for river paddling for 15 years without any problem- so he's switching to Werners on the sea, too.

As with almost every 'advice' thread on this forum- Try before you buy! Some canoe shops will actually lend out 'demo' blades (I know AS Watersports do)- why not ask to borrow some for a day?

Zoe

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Zoe Newsam
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Post by Zoe Newsam » Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:35 am

Just as an aside- I shortened my shaft length from 216 to 210 on advice from Nigel Dennis & Aled Williams- who both seemed to think using the shortes shaft length & smallest blade size you can get away with will be beneficial, and help avoid injury. It used to be fashionable to use really long shaft lengths for sea kayaking- I think this is changing.

Len
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Post by Len » Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:36 am

Good advice. Try as many as pos. Go with your own feelings. I contacted Knoydart and found them very helpful. Dave gave me loads of different paddles, different lenths, shafts and blade, to try on Derwent Water (Lendel, Nimbus, Epic). Amazing how different they all felt.
In the end I went for Epic touring blades with adjustable length and feather. But I've never had wrist problems.
Len

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MikeB
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Post by MikeB » Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:41 am

zoenewsam wrote: It used to be fashionable to use really long shaft lengths for sea kayaking- I think this is changing.
- - and big blades. That's changing too. A thought - Rob Mckenna mentioned the Epic range - having been using mine for a few months now I'm impressed overall and find the ability to adjust the length "on the fly" using that relativly clumsy looking joint system they have is very useful - I also find I'm decreasing the feather as time goes by and find 60 degrees works well.

The Lendal joint is a masterpiece though. A superb piece of design.

As Zoe says - try first / spend later.

Edited to add a comment Barry Shaw made about blade sizes in his excellent trip report on crossing from Holyhead to Dun Laoghaire - "After another hour I had a bit of pain in my elbow so I switched paddles from my Nordkapp to an Archipelago which has a smaller blade and this seemed to do the trick."

(Check the trip report for the full story).

Mike.

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