composite day boats and weights

[GEOFF S]

I'd like a lighter day boat than my plastic Virgo. I saw a nice looking used Aries 155 in performance construction - nice boat but same weight as
my Virgo I think (26kg)
Valley Gemini ST by contrast I believe is about 17kg.
So my question, as I'm being lazy and can't be bothered hunting for specs, is what recommendations for a sub 20kg day boat which won't cost the earth on the s/h market ?
Suitable for sporty stuff, surf and day tours
Cheers

[AllanH]

I’m not sure that lightweight sea kayaks and surfing are such a good combination - have a look at this: http://kajakwoerden.blogspot.com/2009/1 ... k.html?m=1

[mrcharly]

Carbon is brittle.

I don't know why there aren't more lightweight day boats/touring boats made. Something similar to the construction of my (very very old) race boat. It is 5.2m, but still only 8kg. Mostly kevlar and skin coat rather than a thick gel coat.

Sure, the hull and deck flexes.
However it is actually quite strong. Maybe not withstanding breaking surf, but perfectly fine for calm river paddling.

[on the rocks]

You would be very lucky indeed to find a second hand sea kayak that meets your (or anyone’s) exact requirements. Most composite sea kayaks are at, or a little over 20kg. Rockpool kayaks tend to have a slightly thinner layup than some other makes; the hull bends and scrapes less going over smooth rocks, which can be a good thing. Tiderace boats seem to save weight be having thinner gelcoat layers and in my opinion are more vulnerable to damage. You can save a little weight whilst maintaining durability by having a 50:50 glass hull and carbon deck. My 50:50 Pilgrim Expedition has a keel strip (useful for surf landings) which probably offsets the carbon deck weight saving.

[pathbrae]

To slightly (mis)quote a well known UK manufacturer, when asked why their boat was a couple of kg heavier than their competitors....

"We don't make lightweight boats. That boat of yours will still be looking after you years from now when all these competitor boats have fallen apart and sunk to the bottom"

[ChrisJK]

Have you considered wooden boats?
As on the rocks points out to find all you want in a second hand boat may be an ask particularly under 20 kg
I have two wood boats both around 15kg but I’m careful round rocks and tend to launch in and out mostly in water. I’m not a surfer but enjoy a reasonable push.
One is glassed inside and out so is probably reasonably robust.
A friend brought a wood boat recently for £100!I bought the other unfinished one to customise but therein lies the problem you might need to build your boat.
However I just took a look on Etsy and I see a decent looking boat for £150.

[GEOFF S]

Cheers all
Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned 20kg but said "towards the lighter end of the spectrum" .
I was surprised that the Aries and a Gemini had such a weight difference. Basically, something that's a good bit lighter than a plastic Virgo would help my back, shoulders.. etc etc

[MikeALCC]

You can save a little weight whilst maintaining durability by having a 50:50 glass hull and carbon deck. My 50:50 Pilgrim Expedition has a keel strip (useful for surf landings) which probably offsets the carbon deck weight saving.

Always intrigues me for the lighter boats why Nigel (SKUK) goes glass hull with carbon deck, but P&H go carbon hull with glass deck. Amazing how two respected companies have completely opposite methods to reach same interim light boat.

As for the opening question, it always surprises me how heavy and un balanced my classic aries 155 is when carrying on shoulder. But then suppose I want strength in dynamic environment

[on the rocks]

Always intrigues me for the lighter boats why Nigel (SKUK) goes glass hull with carbon deck, but P&H go carbon hull with glass deck. Amazing how two respected companies have completely opposite methods to reach same interim light boat.

The logic of glass hull and carbon deck is that glass is much easier to repair DIY than carbon and the hull is much more likely to get damaged than the deck

[ChrisJK]

Forgive me for asking Geoff S but rather than changing boats have you considered investing in an easier loading system eg Karitek or Thule. Or more simply using a roof bar extension lever?

[GEOFF S]

Hi Chris, yes. I have a van so bit more of a pain to start with. I've been using an extension bar for a while but have just ( yesterday) got a kcs assisted loading cradle and v bars. Not tried loading yet but they will hopefully make life easier. I'm trying to do everything possible to reduce possibilities of strains and injuries.

[Chris Bolton]

I was in the P&H shop and spotted that they make composite Virgos. The lightest construction is about 16kg. I thought you might be interested but when I reread your OP you said "not cost the earth s/h", and a lightweight composite Virgo is £5k-£6k.

[Will Hay]

Norse have a graphene coming out at 17kg, and a carbon on the market at 21kg.
I'm 5' 10", 170lbs, legs like Usain Bolt and arms like Hilda Ogden [I'm a runner] amd the norse carbon felt light.
£3.4k and £2.5k new, the same price as SH from the likes of P&H.

[Will Hay]

I’m not sure that lightweight sea kayaks and surfing are such a good combination - have a look at this: http://kajakwoerden.blogspot.com/2009/1 ... k.html?m=1

Giant monster wave immediately followed by a 5m wave?
You think that's a good example and appropriate test of a composite boat for real world use?

[AllanH]

I grew up by the sea, and always take stories about wave sizes, particularly when they involve boat damage or loss, with a slight pinch of salt. ;-)

[Sean_soup]

Giant monster wave immediately followed by a 5m wave?
You think that's a good example and appropriate test of a composite boat for real world use?

Just the one big 'monster' wave I think, but it's the kayak that's 5m and the wave wouldn't have needed to be anything like that size. About 1.5m or so would be big enough if it came with a dollop of bad luck - just big and steep enough to back-surf the boat despite the paddlers attempt to power over it, and just shallow enough at the bottom of the trough for the tip of the stern to dig in and make contact with the beach below.

I've done something similar in my Romany Surf (standard layup, glass and polyester). I probably should have capsized and attempted to roll up on the other side of the wave but chickened out, tried to power my way through, failed, got surfed backwards and felt the tip of the stern dig in to the sandy beach below. At that point getting flipped is inevitable.

In my case I came out of the cockpit immediately (it felt like a big hand just got hold of my upper body and just yanked me straight out), lost contact with the boat and spent a minute or two (which felt much longer) going through a brief spin-cycle every 12 seconds or so whilst swimming in with the paddle.

The boat was waiting for me on the beach unconcerned and undamaged apart from a missing hatch cover when I arrived, having surfed in much more successfully on its own without me getting in the way.

[GEOFF S]

I was in the P&H shop and spotted that they make composite Virgos. The lightest construction is about 16kg. I thought you might be interested but when I reread your OP you said "not cost the earth s/h", and a lightweight composite Virgo is £5k-£6k.

Indeed, that would be the idea solution l. I've currently got a plastic one which I use as a day boat

[Will Hay]

I was in the P&H shop and spotted that they make composite Virgos. The lightest construction is about 16kg. I thought you might be interested but when I reread your OP you said "not cost the earth s/h", and a lightweight composite Virgo is £5k-£6k.

Indeed, that would be the idea solution l. I've currently got a plastic one which I use as a day boat

Excuse the pun, but I'm in the same boat.

I have a Wavesport Hydra 145 which I'll keep, but want sonething lighter, for longer trips.

I have the Thule Hullavator, but I'm a runner, so no upper body strength.

Shame I can't paddle wirh my legs, I'd be in the Olympics.

I'm pretty sure im going to pull the trigger on a Stellar boat.

[Will Hay]

I grew up by the sea, and always take stories about wave sizes, particularly when they involve boat damage or loss, with a slight pinch of salt. ;-)

That's exactly my point.
A example such as the one you gave is not a reason for suggesting a composite boat isn't suitable for the sea.

[Chris Bolton]

Shame I can't paddle with my legs, I'd be in the Olympics.

Off topic, but that's what Olympic sprint paddlers do - watch how much knee movement they have! Obviously they do use upper body as well, and lifting onto a roofrack is not the same as paddling.

[Sean_soup]

Nobody is suggesting that a composite boat isn't suitable for the sea!

The suggestion was that a composite boat with a particularly lightweight 'elite' layup isn't a good choice for surfing. Rightly so imo. Likewise rockhopping. They're built for careful expeditioning, munching up the miles with lots of efficient forward paddling, and other forms of sea kayaking that go out of their way to avoid having fun.*

*Ha ha, kidding. (Mostly.)

[Will Hay]

Nobody is suggesting that a composite boat isn't suitable for the sea!

Fair point, acknowledged.