Optimal day boat

[Florafloats]

Boat suggestions please. I'm going to be working on balance brace / rolling as well as improving forward paddling. Aside from this my paddling is entirely day trips and I would like to cover distance, at the same time I do require a good degree of inherent stability, enough to confidently take photos in waves. I don't need capacity for cargo - I'd like the volume to be ideal for me and a packed lunch. I weigh 10st/66kg, am 172cm/5.7ft tall and am looking for a boat suited to my objectives.

[AllanH]

You may need to give some more details. For example, the type of water you’ll be paddling makes a big difference. I think a lot of people will immediately suggest a Romany, but unless you are regularly rock-hopping and paddling tide races, you might find it a bit stodgy and slow.

And then there’s the question of materials - rotomoulded boats are heavier but more robust, while a carbon fibre boat is a joy to handle but doesn’t like to be run up onto pebbled beaches.

My suggestion is to contact Summit to Sea on Anglesea, and book one of their demo weekends - you can try a whole range of kayaks from different manufacturers (other retailers may do something similar, but I’m not sure how many offer the same range). That’s how I chose my present kayak - which wasn’t one if those I was initially considering.

[Florafloats]

Thank you. The Romany is definitely an iconic boat for good reason. For my purposes it isn't well connected and is a bit too high volume. I have found carrying weight made a difference to its responsiveness. I could do this and pad to fit but I would rather find something more inherently suited to these particular requirements, and as you say, it is at the slower end of the spectrum. I'm looking for good connectivity with no more volume than needed for me and my sandwiches. There is no requirement to excel at rock hopping / surf or tide races, just something suited to rolling and covering distance quickly in reasonably fair conditions.

My preference is composite construction with a keyhole cockpit - my Greenlandic leanings don't go so far as an ocean cockpit or skin on frame (yet).

I hope to narrow the options down as far as possible before finding places to try. It is like getting married after a single date and it would be great to hire a boat for at least a weekend to assess compatibility.

[Chris Bolton]

Rolling, inherent stability and covering distance quickly are going to be difficult to achieve as the design characteristics tend to conflict. A possible solution would be build, or have built for you, a plywood Shrike. You could adjust the beam to get the right balance between stability and rolling. Most composite boats will have more volume than you need for your sandwiches, or for rolling, and you can have Shrike with as low a volume as you like. It will probably be lighter than nearly all composite boats.

[on the rocks]

Pilgrim or Pilgrim expedition. I’m 72 kg and 5’4” ( a little over the ideal weight at the moment but sliming down) works well for me including taking photos. It’s a lot faster and also more agile than a Romany and rolls easily. Although the hull is relatively narrow I do find it stable in lumpy water albeit with a little conscious or unconscious input from my knees etc. Arrange a demo with the manufacturer or a dealer. Alternatively book a weekend course with somebody like Sea Kayaking Wales on Anglesey where you should be able to try one for the course and maybe get a discount if you buy.

[Ceegee]

Balance (static) brace and the general plethora of Greenland rolls require a low volume and narrow beam.

Imho, the best bet with some practicality for day use beyond the dedicated boats like the Arrow Ivalu, Black Pearl, Waterfield etc. is the Tahe Greenlander.

If you want a "standard" boat that works, the Rockpool Isel, NDK Pilgrim, or even Valley Anas Acuta come to mind.

[on the rocks]

To add: I had a Rockpool Isel before my Pilgrim Expedition, both are excellent low volume boats. My main reason for changing was more space for camping gear, but I also appreciate its faster speed and soft chines (read on). The Pilgrim standard and Expedition have smaller cockpit rims. I have quite short legs so getting in and out is no problem, including re-entry roll, however you may find it awkward if you have long legs, try and see. The actual cockpit volume is less than the Isel so there is less water to pump out , or to slosh around while getting to an eddy after self rescue. The Isel’s larger cockpit rim makes getting in and out a doddle, however if you have short arms it can be harder to reach items on the front deck, eg a map. I found the boats handle fairly similarly, both with good connectivity and easy to roll. The Pilgrim Expedition is faster than the Isel and standard Pilgrim due to its longer water line, but all faster than a Romany. A big difference is that the Isel had harder chines than the Pilgrim, this makes it easier to find and sit on / lock onto the secondary stability, however if you want to edge beyond this it will get tippy, I found the softer chines of the Pilgrim easier to modulate edging, particularly adjusting edge for lumpy water, however this is my personal feeling and I know paddlers who out perform me in their Isels. If you decide to go for one of the Pilgrim options I highly recommend the rear deck pump recess option.

[ChrisJK]

Hi Florafloats

It's interesting that Chris Bolton has recommended the Shrike, I have built one and its a fantastic Greenland style design. It weighs around 15kg and when motoring is pretty fast as it's total length 17'7" I've used it as a day boat and carefully loaded it's been on several multi day trips. However it's main preoccupation is to aim and keep to a direct line as it has a V shaped hull that's without deploying the skeg,.
I've only just learnt to roll so haven't yet tried that. The V hull means that it is more stable when moving but once mastered sitting still and balancing especially with a Greenland paddle isn't a problem.
Alongside that I also now have a Vember which is Shrike's sister which I am presently taking up as my day boat. It is 16' so is likely not to be as fast but given that it is also around 15kg in weight and is glassed inside and out it is hopefully going to keep up with the pack. It has a rounder hull and likely to be more manoeuverable and again I've yet to attempt rolling this one.

The problem is as Chris points out you'd need to build or commission a builder.
There are of course other wooden boats out there.
On this forum viewtopic.php?f=4&t=110381

[Florafloats]

Thank you I appreciate your input, some possibilities hadn't occurred to me at all, the Shrike is a beautiful boat. I was aware of a couple of the others and thank you on the rocks for that detailed comparison, very useful - I like to fold my legs in easily so that narrows that down.

Two boats I thought might be possibilities but there is not a lot of info on are the Xceed S and the smaller of the Volans, I'd be interested to know if anyone has experience of those.

[Mark Graham]

I've tried both of the above, the Volan just for one paddle, the Xceed S for a 5 day trip. Both seemed very nicely built but for me personally were just a little on the cramped side - I'm 5'10, 150lb with size 9 feet, so they could be a better 'fit' for you.
It's probably not fair to compare a fully laden Xceed with a nearly empty Volan and I didn't try rolling either of them but I preferred the Xceed, beautiful as the Volan was. I'd urge you to try both. My normal 'day boat' and occasional short trip was a composite Necky Chatham 16 which I've replaced with an Ocean 17 to give me a bit more space and comfort for extended trips. The Chatham has a decent amount of Greenland influence in its design and handles extremely well without feeling unstable - neither of the other two felt quite the same liveliness. (The Chatham, reluctantly, is for sale by the way) -

[andypop]

Another contender, not mentioned so far is the Cetus in its LV form. Narrower than the Volan, but with good primary stability for photo taking.

[Florafloats]

Thank you again. Both those never models are less frequent on the used market so perhaps it isn't worth even looking. I had comepletely overlooked the Cetus lv. Oddly I forget p&h and Valley.

Are my two objectives unlikely to be satisfied in a single boat without some compromise? I was looking at the Anas Acuta just now, another model I had forgotten. While I think it would lack speed on calm water, perhaps it would be a decent fit and therefore perform better than a too-large compromise boat! Again I have never known one or anyone who paddles one. Another clear compromise is the Avocet but I think standard size would be too large and the lv much too little (I would vacuum pack myself if I thought I could fit, the lines, so perfect!).

[PlymouthDamo]

Are my two objectives unlikely to be satisfied in a single boat without some compromise? I was looking at the Anas Acuta just now, another model I had forgotten. While I think it would lack speed on calm water, perhaps it would be a decent fit and therefore perform better than a too-large compromise boat! Again I have never known one or anyone who paddles one. Another clear compromise is the Avocet but I think standard size would be too large and the lv much too little (I would vacuum pack myself if I thought I could fit, the lines, so perfect!).

A Greenland hull, like the Anas Acuta, won't necessarily be slow. I''ve got self-built boats with identical hull dimensions to the Anas Acuta, and I don't really notice any performance difference when compared to other sea kayaks. In fact, these ones seem to be quicker than many run-of-the-mill rotomoulded sea kayaks because their construction method is very stiff so you don't get that 'paddling a mattress' effect. Greenland hulls do have low primary stability, so arguably not great for photography, however my experience has been that you quickly adapt and stop noticing it.

For rolling and balance braces, you want (1) a low back deck and non-restrictive seat (ideally allowing you to lie down on the back deck) and (2) very good contact between the deck and your thighs. I don't think there's any way of telling whether a boat will give you this other than sitting in and checking. For example, I borrowed a very early Anas Acuta, which I'd heard great things about, but I couldn't physically fit in it and only managed one desperate test paddle with both my knees on one side of the boat(!) A low volume, well-fitted ocean cockpit will give you the best possible contact (between your thighs and the front deck) but that's not what you're after, so you'll need to be sitting in the boats and checking how snug you can get those thigh braces.

But in theory, a very low volume Greenland boat could be what you're looking for. I built a very low volume boat for rolling, but subsequently found it was my favourite boat for all purposes where I didn't need to carry large amounts of luggage. The handling is a delight and it will turn in gale-force winds with no question of needing a skeg. I've got a day hatch and front hatch which could probably hold enough kit for a travelling-light overnight trip.

[on the rocks]

There may be a danger of over thinking this. Get to Anglesey and demo some boats. From everything you’ve said I suspect a Rockpool Isel will be the one, enjoy!

[Ceegee]

I suspect a Rockpool Isel will be the one, enjoy!

The Isel is basically a trimmed-down Alaw hull with a new deck, so lower and a slight beam reduction (as Mike Webb once explained to me). It would be my choice, so demo it at the very least.

I paddle an Alaw Bach, as does my 5'6" daughter, and it's a great soft-chined hull. It's also a good roller. My daughter took the 2016 Greenland rolling prize at Anglsey in hers, but that's maybe the paddler as much as the boat?

[Florafloats]

Thanks all. Appreciate all these great reviews and suggestions.

[almorris1]

Hi, any one paddled both the Romany Latitude and the Rockpool Isel? Same same or different?

[AllanH]

I paddled the NDK Pilgrim Expedition (nearly the same as the Latitude) and the Isel on the same day a couple of years ago. The NDK is longer and narrower, and at my weight (70kg) it had significantly less primary stability than the Isel. Noticeable, but not worrying, and probably not a factor if you are lighter than me.

[AllanH]

Oh, and I found the seat on the Isel to be much more comfortable than that on the NDK - but my rear and NDK seats have never been friends.

[on the rocks]

Hi, any one paddled both the Romany Latitude and the Rockpool Isel? Same same or different?

I’ve not paddled the Latitude but I understand it’s like the Pilgrim but for light people who are too tall or too long legged to fit the Pilgrim or Pilgrim expedition.

[on the rocks]

Phil Clegg has written really useful and impartial articles comparing the characteristics of different Rockpoool and NDK(SKUK) kayaks
https://www.seakayakpaddler.co.uk/all-a ... ool-kayaks

https://www.seakayakpaddler.co.uk/all-r ... sea-kayaks