Winter paddling thermals

[ForeverYoung]

Is there any great advantage in buying the watersport specific thermal tops for under a wetsuit, as opposed to just normal mountaineering etc baselayers? What layering do you find effective either under a wetsuit or with separate dry trousers and top? I don't have a dry suit and can't afford one for now, so layering for under those not relevant to me just now! I do have a neoprene swimsuit which I might be able squeeze under the wetsuit, but I think it would be very tight if I can manage it, so not comfy. My standard mountaineering baselayers are merino, so pretty cosy, but hold a lot of water if I was to go in.

[Owen]

I'd save the money, I can't see any thermal layer working if it's soaking wet, which it will be if its under a wetsuit. Save your pennys for a drysuit.

[ForeverYoung]

I'd save the money, I can't see any thermal layer working if it's soaking wet, which it will be if its under a wetsuit. Save your pennys for a drysuit.

A dry suit is a long way off the cards. We are renovating a house so there isn't spare cash. I also only buy kit second hand for environmental reasons, so baselayers wouldn't be many pennies at all. However, if the watersport ones wouldn't make much difference, then no need even for that.

Would a warm layer over the wetsuit be more effective than one under it?

[Owen]

Would a warm layer over the wetsuit be more effective than one under it?

Probably. Certainly a cag/over trousers over a wetsuit works.

[P4ddy]

I would wear 2 short sleeve rash tops under my wetsuit plus a cag and benny hat in winter. Id get really warm in that. There's no way I could get a long sleeve thermal on as the arms would just bunch up to short sleeve.. I could add a wooly jumper under the cag. When winter snorkelling I wear a 2.5mm open cell neoprene vest underneath (because I couldn't find a closed cell vest in suitable thickness at a reasonable price) so my torso has 6.5mm neoprene. I've worn that winter kayaking before and I was roasting.

[Sean_soup]

In general probably not, but I think you'd be right to be a little bit cautious about merino wool. Great if you can keep it reasonably dry, but even assuming you don't capsize it's more difficult to manage your layers than on land and there's a greater risk of being a bit too warm at times, getting a bit of a dab on and having a soggy base layer as a result.

Decathlon do a pretty good 'thermal fleece' for quite cheap, and a version meant for surfing with neoprene front and back with fabric sides and sleeves.
Eg:
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/men-s-sur ... mc=8529013
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/t-shirt-a ... 53&c=black
(Being fabric, if you're up for a bit of sewing, easy to adjust the length of the sleeves should you need to.)

Bit of an 'out there' suggestion, but if you have a lot of mountaineering kit I don't suppose that would include a Buffalo 'Special 6' shirt would it? Old-school pile/pertex. Under, or perhaps even instead of a cag.

[ChrisJK]

If you are in a club you just might find someone with a drysuit nearing the end of its life for a reasonable price which might need some tlc but might fit the bill (someone might get a new one for Christmas )
However waterproof layers over rather than under your wets suit are probably more effective,

[mrcharly]

Merino thermals are the bomb for paddling.

You can't effectively vent or take layers off, so it is inevitable that your thermals will end up sweaty. Merino copes so much better with this.

A drysuit is NOT essential. It's a nice to have.

If you are paddling a decked kayak (rather than a surfski), your legs are already protected. A cag over thermals and maybe an old woolly jumper is fine.

If you are short of money, buy second hand. I picked up a couple of cags in fine condition for very little this year.

[ForeverYoung]

If you are in a club you just might find someone with a drysuit nearing the end of its life for a reasonable price which might need some tlc but might fit the bill (someone might get a new one for Christmas )
However waterproof layers over rather than under your wets suit are probably more effective,

I'm not the shape for second hand! Very very short and stumpy with all my weight on my hips and legs! (152cm tall!). Dry suits don't come my size so would have to be custom. My local paddling group are more normal shapes 🤣

[ForeverYoung]

Merino thermals are the bomb for paddling.

You can't effectively vent or take layers off, so it is inevitable that your thermals will end up sweaty. Merino copes so much better with this.

A drysuit is NOT essential. It's a nice to have.

If you are paddling a decked kayak (rather than a surfski), your legs are already protected. A cag over thermals and maybe an old woolly jumper is fine.

If you are short of money, buy second hand. I picked up a couple of cags in fine condition for very little this year.

I do normally paddle with neoprene trousers and normal warm kit and cag. But starting to try and push into bigger and scarier stuff, so capsize starts to become a risk. So I'm looking more at what happens if I actually get wet.

Yes, I am aware dry suit is not essential, and just trying to maximise the benefit of what I have.

[Mark Graham]

It's easy to underestimate how much heat you can lose in a wet wetsuit exposed to the wind. Your buoyancy aid will give some protection from that but a cheap cag will make a big difference.
I used to be a diver and we nearly always each took one along on the boat to put on over our suits for the trip back to shore.

[ChrisJK]

Thanks Foreveryoung you could always put a post on the kayaking gear for sale thread.
I guess you will have experienced that swift cooling down from an exposed wet wet suit it's not much fun even in the summer. I've done rescue practice in spring when the water is cold using a 4mm wet suit but always worn a cag.
Re sizing drysuits are more generous than a wetsuit. I bought my first drysuit from a guy who was probably 3 or more inches than my 5'11'and of slighter build than me.
It cost £25 and a bit of tape ,stormsure and proofing. It's had good use and I still use it if the likelyhood of a capsize is low
I've now since invested in a new one. Do appreciate cost/useage balance and general life expenditure affect these things.

[Sean_soup]

I do normally paddle with neoprene trousers and normal warm kit and cag. But starting to try and push into bigger and scarier stuff, so capsize starts to become a risk. So I'm looking more at what happens if I actually get wet.

Do you carry a storm cag normally? (Which goes right over the top of your buoyancy aid and everything.) Good for emergencies but also for lunch stops etc. It works by, unfortunately, keeping you damp! Your outer layers anyway, as Mark Graham points out above you lose a lot of heat from the outer surface of wet neoprene in evaporative losses as it dries in the wind.

Do you have (access to) a sewing machine? Most commercial storm cags are 'one size' which would almost certainly be far too big. Your best bet might actually be a cheap, basic, non-breathable pullover cag, size XL or whatever will fit over your buoyancy aid etc. easily, and then shorten the sleeves and body to suit.

While you're pushing it and more likely to capsize/swim and a drysuit isn't an option, I guess you need to pick your battles a bit so you're not too far from somewhere you can land if you need to, and use your mountain skills & kit to keep yourself safe. Hot drink accessible on the water, but maybe also carry a stove. Change of thermals and some extra bits in a drybag, and a group shelter or maybe even a small tent so you can get out of the weather while you change out sopping wet thermals for dry ones.

Sorry if this is teaching granny to suck eggs btw, as a mountain leader you're probably already carrying a group shelter on club paddles.

[ForeverYoung]

Ah, great. I will look into storm cags, thanks. I think that is probably the answer. I do have a sewing machine (anyone odd sized generally does! 😂), so can shorten sleeves etc.

Yes, I do always carry spare layers, group shelter, warm drink etc (my husband always jokes that I take my group shelter to Tesco with me 😂), but the coastline around us isn't always that suitable for landing. So a storm cag to chuck on seems like a great solution.