In-reach or SPOT?

[Grian]

As I understand it these devices track your route so that others can follow it and allow you to send a small number of pre-determined messages. This would be useful for reassuring husband and keeping him updated. Which make or model is considered best these days please? For use around Argyll coast, not anywhere remote.

[Owen]

In reach give two way texting spot is as far as I know only one way I.e. you can send but don't get any replies.

[Grian]

Thanks Owen. I hadn't thought about two-way messaging. Mostly there is mobile signal but my screen works poorly with damp hands. Something to consider.

[MikeALCC]

Think we hired an inreach for a recent expedition.

Family loved that they could follow us.

The text facility was useful as we received some weather reports from external sources.

Writing texts to send was painfully slow.

[Chris Bolton]

I have an older model Inreach. It have several possible functions:

1. Before the trip (this needs a computer) set up a list of email addresses and mobile numbers (you can have quite a lot, if there's a limit I haven't run into it) and up to 3 standard messages (eg, all going to plan, delayed but all well, something's up and I'll call you when I can) - then you can send one of those messages, plus your current position, with a couple of button presses. This is the function I use most - get to camp and press the button to say all's well.

2. Basic weather forecast for current location - I use this sometimes

3. Emergency red button, sends your location and a generic distress message (no details of the problem - but you could send a follow-up) - I've haven't needed this so far!

4. Live tracking, sends your position at intervals. Costs more.

5. Custom messages, very slow as you have to select characters one by one on the keyboard using up/down/left/right arrows. Costs extra.

The subscription model (which may be different for the new ones) is an annual fee of about £24 irrespective of use, then you can activate it with a specific 'plan' one month at a time. I use the 'Safety' plan which includes 1-3 as above (effectively unlimited use of these functions), not 4, possibly 5 as an extra, which is something like £15 per month activated. Months run from when you choose, not calendar months.

I think the newer models can be paired with a phone to use for text input.

[Sean_soup]

Mostly there is mobile signal but my screen works poorly with damp hands.

Stating the bleedin' obvious here to a degree - but if you mostly have a mobile signal you could 'share' your location to get that 'tracking' functionality most of the time using an app on a mobile phone. (Most obviously Google Maps.)

The phone could be in a drybag, but it'd be hard on the battery so maybe it'd be worth considering a second phone for the job to avoid the risk of a flat battery if you need it in an emergency. In which case it might as well be a waterproof phone - even if you were to buy something like an Ulefone with a big ol' battery for the purpose, and give it its own PAYG sim, it'd still be quite a bit cheaper to buy and run.

[Owen]

@Chris Bolton which model do you have? I have the old Delorme SE which can be paired with my phone. Makes texting just like normal texting. You just need the app "earthmate " . With the tracking, the standard settings is every ten minutes, you can adjust this I have mine on every hour. I think it's 5p or 10p a plot. On standard it came in quite expensive for a three week trip.

Never used the panic button but I believe that once you've activated it they start messaging you to get as much details as possible. One of the advantages of two way messaging.

I got one for a backpacking trip to Lapland where there's definitely no signal. Now I carry it on most walking and padding trips here in Scotland as phone signal is not very reliable. The other alternative is to carry a PLB but this only gives the SOS function, depends how valuable two way comms are to you.

[Grian]

Thanks for this information. I don't have a PLB, so that is another important function that the device would fulfil. I hadn't thought of the benefit of two way messaging if using the panic button but of course that is an advantage, assuming circumstances allow.

[Chris Bolton]

@Owen, I think that's the same model as I have. The Earthmate app used to require a subscription if your Inreach predated the start of supplying it free with the device, and I've never needed to send a custom message so haven't bothered with it. Did you have to pay for it?

[Chris Bolton]

I don't have a PLB, so that is another important function that the device would fulfil.

I've never felt that my Inreach was waterproof enough to just leave in my BA as I do my PLB, but I may be being over-cautious. Current Inreach models are IPX7.

My understanding is that a PLB may work in more places than the SOS function of the Inreach, and can manage with less perfect view of the sky. A PLB also provides a 406MHz signal that SAR services can home in on. But an Inreach also has the potential to send more details for the emergency, or cancel the SOS if necessary, which you can't do with a PLB.

[Owen]

@Owen, I think that's the same model as I have. The Earthmate app used to require a subscription if your Inreach predated the start of supplying it free with the device, and I've never needed to send a custom message so haven't bothered with it. Did you have to pay for it?

No I just downloaded the app free of charge and paired it to the InReach.

[Chris Bolton]

I received an email from Garmin yesterday. Their charges for InReach use have been radically changed. Instead of £24/year and £15 per month when not suspended, it's now £15 every month with no option to suspend, although you can cancel and re-activate for £40. So using mine for one month a year used to cost me £39, plus another £15 if I used it an extra month. It will now be £55 for one month, and £110 for two, unless the second was within 4 months when it would only be £100.

See https://www.garmin.com/en-GB/p/837461

I can stay on the old plan until my annual renewal in June, I might cancel it then.

[Grian]

I think on the basis of input I will opt for a PLB in conjunction with a tracking app on my phone. Can anyone advise whether they are pretty accurate? Thanks

[ChrisJK]

Hi Grian
I'm possibly late to the discussion but I've stayed shy of getting a plb but have a short wave radio, a phone kept in a pac a mac thingy and a Garmin Fenix watch.
The latter is GPS and will inform of position and has a facility to send that in an emergency to three contacts who can then raise the alarm.

[Grian]

Thanks Chris. The Garmin sounds interesting... Even if my emergency is minor and can be solved by husband paddling out to me it would help if he had a proper fix on my location rather than directions that might not come over clearly by phone or radio or could be misunderstood. The downside is I guess it doesn't continue to give a location but even so a starting point is useful and if I have a tracking app on my phone that would show my location if drifting.

I think that would definitely be useful but would still like a device that will alert the coastguard more or less directly.

[ChrisJK]

Thinking aloud is good.
It makes others think. I would reckon that as long as there is battery life one could resend alerts to update your position. I’ve put my wife and two children as receivers of these alerts but not investigated to see if it might alert the coastguard directly.
I was recently in Holland and downloaded the KNRM helpt app which even though I am in the UK still shows my position and theoretically I could call for help via that and theoretically they could pass that to the RNLI who could possibly be helped by providing a similar app.
Take a look on your smart phone App Store

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_N ... nstitution



A further note is that I used the share location provision on the KNRM app ( I was sitting in a forest in the Hoge Veluwe) to notify my brother and a club member as to where I was and could do the same now from my living room. Perhaps download the app and let hubby know where you are on your next trip!

[Mark Graham]

Is it the case that tracking apps on a watch rely on going via a mobile phone? -If so the watch has to keep it's link to the phone, the phone has to have a signal and both need their batteries to be charged. Then you have to be confident that your nominated individuals will have their phone with them, have a signal, not have a flat battery etc..

I have a running watch which in theory will do that but have never tried it. In practice I have much more confidence in my PLB, which can also be used in the mountains.. I also carry flares and a VHF - my first recourse in most kayaking emergencies would be VHF, followed by PLB if I couldn't make radio contact.

There's a law of diminishing returns that comes in to play here. Cars are very much safer than they used to be but the reduction in deaths and serious injuries in collisions has not dropped as much as it should have done in line with that. The thinking is that drivers feel safer and therefore take risks that they otherwise would not. This occurs in the mountains with GPS and mobile phones too. I still carry the kit but base my decisions and planning on the basis that it doesn't exist.

[Grian]

Definitely worth having belt and braces where safety is concerned!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3g ... 0M00VczMJA

[ChrisJK]

Thanks Mark
As far as I know the alert on the Fenix watch is sent via GPS when I tested it the receivers were charged 50p so assume that was why.
I think there is overlap in being linked to the phone for much data but on many features it works separately from the phone. The KNRM app would need a phone yes.
As has been previously pointed out a plb also needs a battery and to be maintained.
Kit isn’t cheap so I would think many of us slowly improve that whilst being cost effective.I use my watch every day.
I don’t tend to make risky trips solo and know others cover some of the gaps.
Also car drivers get distracted by the plethora of tech in a car!
Thanks Grian for the RNLI link
One might question the wisdom of setting out alone into choppy seas in the dark perhaps.

[Chris Bolton]

The Fenix can't be sending messages over GPS because GPS is not capable of transmitting messages, it's only a location system. The Inreach uses Iridium satellites, but I would be surprised if something the size of the Fenix would have the power to send a message to a satellite. Are you sure they couldn't have been sent by a linked phone?

[ChrisJK]

Thanks Chris
I think its basically the location information which is sent. I will perhaps switch my phone off after informing those nominated and attempt to send an alert but not just now while my daughter is on Holiday in Greece. It's good to know what it's real capabilities are.
Perhaps another Fenix wearer can provide more information.
in the interim I have found this
https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp ... FA3FC.html

Which does appear to confirm what you say Chris.
Perhaps a PLB is somewhere on my Christmas list.

[on the rocks]

I have a Garmin Fenix watch. I understand that Live-track on the Garmin Connect ap on my iphone (I assume Android is the same) connects to the watch getting it’s GPS data and the phone broadcasts this to the web. So if you have your phone in a waterproof case on you or in a hatch it should work if you have a mobile phone signal

[ChrisJK]

Thanks otr
Yes this is the quandary, If one has signal or someone can be contacted via VHF in an emergency, help is possibly on it's way. Depending on budget I guess we all head to belt and braces:Radio,PLB,flares etc.
However after taking a quick swim short only dip in lake Coniston after a pleasant bimble paddle. I re-enforced the sensible decision of investing in a drysuit.
No matter how much tech I'd have had I think the rescue services would have been too late if i'd not been wearing that.

[PaulCB]

Hi,

Zoleo are worth considering / comparing. Will use both satellite and mobile signal for tracking and messaging, and has potentially cheaper rates. But this does use the mobile phone for doing the texts. Easy to put the subsrcription on hold for a month or two. There are pros and cons for the different systems, not one size fits all.

Paul

[Sean_soup]

Depending on budget I guess we all head to belt and braces:Radio,PLB,flares etc.

The paddler in the news story that Grian linked to above - this one: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3gg49j22klo - bravely stuck his head above the parapet on the "Sea Kayak UK" group on FB to share the experience. (It's always better to learn from someone else's mistakes if poss!)

In his case the bits of kit that were most immediately lacking were a spare paddle and a paddle float. His paddle broke at the ferrule whilst bracing into a wave, causing him to capsize, and lacking either a spare paddle or a paddle float he found himself unable to self-rescue. So all he could do was hang on to his kayak and shout for help, and happily he had his VHF, was able to raise the Coastguard (and accurately give his position) and the RNLI were able to successfully locate him and pick him up while he was still only relatively mildly hypothermic.

Pyrotechnical flares largely seem to be going the way of the dinosaur now, and at night at least an electronic 'flare' is probably a better bet. (And obviously *much* safer to use.)

Edit to add:

Here's an interesting snippet of information for Garmin (and other) satellite comms/tracker users btw. Turns out it's possible to use a third party subscription service rather than Garmin's own for those, and it may be a cheaper/better option in some circumstances.

There's a youtube video explaining it here:




And here are a couple of links related to that:
https://trackme.nz/
https://www.protegear.de/en-gb/

[Paul-C]

Thanks Owen. I hadn't thought about two-way messaging. Mostly there is mobile signal but my screen works poorly with damp hands. Something to consider.

It's not answering your original question, but I keep a basic push button mobile phone in my BA for emergencies, having realised the futility if trying to use a touchscreen with wet hands. Doro make basic push button phones with large buttons for old people, which is ideal for basic texting and emergency calls, and there are plenty of them available second hand on eBay. And Asda still do a pay as you go SIM that doesn't need a monthly top-up. I'm too much of a cheapskate to pay a monthly fee for SPOT or Inreach, so currently have mobile phone + VHF +plb. But I don't paddle solo yet.

[Mark Graham]

Following on from my earlier post about diminishing returns (and without prejudice, just asking constructively), I wonder if the possession of a VHF (or a PLB in other cases perhaps) was a factor in deciding it was OK to go out without a spare paddle?
I've no idea who the guy in question is and I admire him for sharing his account. I wonder if this is at least partly a generational thing? Those of us who grew up going on the hills or out to sea without mobile phones, GPS, PLB etc had to plan and equip on that basis - and still do. That doesn't mean we don't take that kit with us now but we see it featuring further down the list of actions in an incident. I don't mean to suggest delaying calling for help in a genuine emergency but it's maybe easy to overlook basic equipment and responses in the blinding light of new and not necessarily reliable technology. Best answer of course, I respectfully suggest, is to have both options but to appreciate and remember the value of the basics.

[on the rocks]

Not necessarily related to Sean’s post, but how many of us practice rolling with half a split? It’s something I have managed a couple of times in the pool but I’ve now added it to the list for regular and systematic practice. Useful if a paddle does break or you lose a paddle and need to retrieve one half of your splits from the deck

[Ceegee]

Not necessarily related to Sean’s post, but how many of us practice rolling with half a split? It’s something I have managed a couple of times in the pool but I’ve now added it to the list for regular and systematic practice. Useful if a paddle does break or you lose a paddle and need to retrieve one half of your splits from the deck

Just use your norsaq

[andynormancx]

Stating the bleedin' obvious here to a degree - but if you mostly have a mobile signal you could 'share' your location to get that 'tracking' functionality most of the time using an app on a mobile phone. (Most obviously Google Maps.)

The phone could be in a drybag, but it'd be hard on the battery so maybe it'd be worth considering a second phone for the job to avoid the risk of a flat battery if you need it in an emergency.

Using Google Maps to share your location with friends and family (or Apple's Find My system) doesn't have to have a significant impact on battery life, they don't keep the GPS chipset turned on all the time. Both of these are enabled permanently on my iPhone, the battery life is fine.

(I'm not saying however that in some circumstances a spare phone wouldn't be a good idea)