Pyranha 9R '2' - what's the difference?

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banzer
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Pyranha 9R '2' - what's the difference?

Post by banzer »

Regular readers of this forum will know (and not care) about my apathy towards new boat styles. I'm not especially aiming at Pyranha but they seem a good one to start with.

What's so much better about 'version 2' of the 9R over 'version 1'. I didn't particularly notice Bren et al paddling rubbish in the first version.

With that in mind, what features of 'version 2' are still not quite right yet and they are looking to improve on in 'version 3' in no doubt three or four years time. Why don't they just do that now with 'version '2 and save the bother. What massive difference in boating style and demands is there likely to be in the next three years to warrant these changes. I'm quite sure Aniol would have worked out a Cobra Flip in an original Nomad if that's all he had to paddle.

What I'm trying to say is, surely 'creek boats' as we know them have reached the zenith of design, and until someone makes a radical change (eg twin hull or something), any tweaks are pretty immaterial and designed purely to shift new boats (not that I blame them btw, they're a business after all). Sponsored paddlers are bound to say the new one is so much better because they're paid to do so.

Blah blah, etc etc. Where's the rain?!
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Re: Pyranha 9R '2' - what's the difference?

Post by Mark Mulrain »

I think most changes are down to the way the original 9R was used. Pyranha did not expect people to take a boat that was primarily designed to go as fast in a straight line (as fast a sub 9 foot river design can go anyway) and push their limits with hard whitewater.
With harder and harder race courses being run, paddlers are demanding boats that are both fast and controlled. The 9R was not as easy to control as some of the other designs but this is why so many people fell for it.
The challenge was to keep this magic that made the 9R special. From all the inital reports coming in for devoted 9R paddlers, it sounds like the 9R II has managed it.

Paddling styles will continue to change; kayak designs probably will change to flatter these new styles. If a boat company did not try to innovate then it would be a bit of a dull marketplace and we would probably all still be in Nomads/Jefes and doing backwards sweep strokes.

At the end of the day every design is a compromise and there are people that will prefer the original 9R over the 9R II. I know that Pyranha will be keeping both designs going.

Everyone's a winner surely? Bring on the dam releases, I want to try my 9R II (and 12R) out!

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Re: Pyranha 9R '2' - what's the difference?

Post by Dave Manby »

I don't know about the 9R:2 but years ago I paddled the Burn mk1 own the Yusufei gorge section of the Coruh and then took the Burn mk2 down the same section. It was almost enough of a different boat to maybe warrant a different name except it looked so similar. The main improvement in the mk2 was that the stern didn't suck down like the mk1 did. This was the first time I really noticed a difference in a similar boat if you see what I mean. Now obviously everyone is going to notice different changes because everyone has different paddling styles/weights/stroke rate/arm length. (I never upgraded to the mk3 burn and have never paddled it.)

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Re: Pyranha 9R '2' - what's the difference?

Post by Strad »

banzer wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:33 am
What I'm trying to say is, surely 'creek boats' as we know them have reached the zenith of design, and until someone makes a radical change (eg twin hull or something), any tweaks are pretty immaterial and designed purely to shift new boats

Think I've been hearing the 'pinnacle of design' line for more years than I care to remember, yet things have continued to evolve and the way we paddle has continued to evolve too. Long may that continue..
Old School?? I miss my AQII..
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Re: Pyranha 9R '2' - what's the difference?

Post by Jim »

banzer wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:33 am

With that in mind, what features of 'version 2' are still not quite right yet and they are looking to improve on in 'version 3' in no doubt three or four years time. Why don't they just do that now with 'version '2 and save the bother. What massive difference in boating style and demands is there likely to be in the next three years to warrant these changes. I'm quite sure Aniol would have worked out a Cobra Flip in an original Nomad if that's all he had to paddle.
It is pretty rare to know what the improvements for a new version will be just as the current version is released, otherwise as you say, those features would have been included, except if they had been discovered soon after the process of making the production moulds started. It is one thing to have top end paddlers doing R&D testing of prototypes to suit them, and completely another thing to come up with a design that really suits the masses that probably don't have the same paddling style or requirements of the top paddlers, only the R&D test data is available when the production moulds are built, it is only after production boats get out into circulation and 'real' paddlers start to put the hours in and give their own feedback that a design can be really tweaked, but even then there will be some differing views and ideas coming back.
The trick is to get something generally good for most people the first time round, if you don't get that right it will cost to update the design too soon!

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Re: Pyranha 9R '2' - what's the difference?

Post by Franky »

People will always buy new stuff if it's marketed appropriately. It doesn't have to be "right", it just has to be different. Consider the 9R and Machno, both radical new designs that found their market in people looking for a change.

I'm of a "when I find something I like, I stick with it" cast of mind, and haven't been convinced that all new boat designs are improvements. I bought a Mamba 4 and a half years ago and have paddled half a dozen other boats since, sometimes as demos with a purchase in mind, but I've always been disappointed that nothing screamed at me to part with my cash. If I had to replace my boat now, I'd buy another Mamba.

My paddling has a lot of room for improvement and that's what keeps me motivated. If I felt totally happy with my paddling, I'd probably be looking for a "lateral" move to a different boat style.

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Re: Pyranha 9R '2' - what's the difference?

Post by SimonMW »

For one thing the 9R2 is a slightly different type of boat to the first 9R, which is why they are keeping the original 9R on the market alongside the Mk2.

As any boat designer will tell you, small changes can make big differences to the way a boat behaves. When the Dagger Nomad was originally released, that was the pinnacle of creek boat design at the time it came out. But I doubt you'd find many people now preferring it over, say, a Machno, or an Gangsta etc. It isn't really a matter of what you can do in the boats that is different, but in the feel on the water in how they do it.

Are you suggesting boat designers just give up and vow never to design a new boat ever again? It's not as if the 9R2 has been released quickly. The 9R has been around for a few years now! 2014 if memory serves.

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Re: Pyranha 9R '2' - what's the difference?

Post by rach »

I have paddled the original 9R for many years now, and since being in Chile have had the chance to try the 9R II on some of the most challenging sections that I have ever paddle.

For me the difference between the original and the II is the stability/friendliness. I felt a lot more in control and stable in the 9R II that it gave me the confidence to run a drop that has only been run by a handful of women before, and when the run in to the drop wasn't going perfectly I still had the speed to get back online in time for the boof. I enjoyed this boat so much that I changed the order for a original 9R that I had, for the II, which I will be picking up in March.

Downsides, the Pyranha stout 2 outfitting is better than its predecessor, but ZET boats still have the best outfitting and plastic durability currently on the market. That said I love my 9R and can not wait to get and paddle my 9R II.

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Re: Pyranha 9R '2' - what's the difference?

Post by Neptune »

SimonMW

When the Dagger Nomad was originally released, that was the pinnacle of creek boat design at the time it came out.
It still is for me, even though I have had the new Nomad medium since it became available. As others have said, when you find a boat that suits you and your style of paddling then you tend to stick with it or go back to it.

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Re: Pyranha 9R '2' - what's the difference?

Post by StoneWeasel »

Neptune wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:46 pm
SimonMW

When the Dagger Nomad was originally released, that was the pinnacle of creek boat design at the time it came out.
It still is for me, even though I have had the new Nomad medium since it became available. As others have said, when you find a boat that suits you and your style of paddling then you tend to stick with it or go back to it.

Peter
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Re: Pyranha 9R '2' - what's the difference?

Post by buck197 »

So while we are talking about boat design, the 9R was stated that it was faster? How is this quantified? In mph? In a dynamic environment how is this recorded or is it just a feel how it gets down a rapid?
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Re: Pyranha 9R '2' - what's the difference?

Post by Franky »

buck197 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:39 pm
So while we are talking about boat design, the 9R was stated that it was faster? How is this quantified? In mph? In a dynamic environment how is this recorded or is it just a feel how it gets down a rapid?
I've always assumed that "faster" means "accelerates faster".

Without anyone paddling them, and other things being equal, won't the "terminal velocity" of all boats be more or less the same? I.e. the speed of the water?

I paddle a boat that was designed as a competitor to the 9R, a Jackson Nirvana. It certainly does accelerate very fast, and I suppose that means that its top speed when being actively paddled is higher than for a less aquadynamic boat (again other factors being equal).

That said, perhaps there are aspects of boat design that make it possible for them, counterintuitively, to go faster than the water even when there's no power input from the paddler. Sailing ships can go faster than the wind pushing them because their sails are designed to concentrate and "funnel" the wind. The 9R and the Nirvana both have squared-off sterns - does this enable water in the slipstream of the boat to push against the stern, adding a bit of "free speed"?

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Re: Pyranha 9R '2' - what's the difference?

Post by Adrian Cooper »

It would be possible to measure the speed of a boat, or at least to provide a measure which would convey this. But, since the speed is ultimately determined by the engine, you need to take this out of the equation. What you need is a combined drag coefficient. Now, it would need to be conducted at a sensible speed for the use of the boat so let's say for a creek boat normally paddled at say 3mph. You set the boat in a tank with a current in the water running at 3mph, attach one end to a scale and measure the resistance. Faster boat, less resistance, slow boat, more resistance. Now, as I said, it needs context so it's no point doing the same 3mph measure for a racing boat which might be paddled at 6mph because you need to factor in all the variables in real conditions so skin friction and rocker, eg. A heavily rockered boat will meet it's maximum (planning) speed early at say 4mph whereas a racing boat this would be much faster. You would need a number of categories for groups of boats.

To be honest, whilst I've considered this in general terms, Jim would be much better placed to explain it.

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