The new Access Charter and Campaign June 2018

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stuartcm83
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The new Access Charter and Campaign June 2018

Post by stuartcm83 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:08 pm

Everyone who wants to see the access rights to rivers and the outdoors recognised and or clarified by the government under the new Agricultural policy, should read this article:

https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/go-c ... ct-your-mp

MikeVeal
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Re: The new Access Charter and Campaign June 2018

Post by MikeVeal » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:21 am

https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/go-c ... r-campaign
British Canoeing wrote:Through the Charter, British Canoeing will be asking the Government to legislate through new modern legislation: to confirm fair, shared, sustainable open access to water.
Halejuah! We all believe that the rights of access are already enshrined in law, all we need is confirmation of the interpretation of that law.
British Canoeing wrote:The paddling community has said very clearly, it wants to see public rights enshrined in law, to move towards a model that is seen to work in Scotland.
And in the very next sentence they're back to the old mixed messages of confusion and disarray. [emoji of Mike banging his head against a wall until blood spouts profusely]
If the other thread here is a fair representation of the paddling community, it seems that the paddling community has clearly said that it wants existing rights confirmed, not that it wants new rights.

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Pam Bell
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Re: The new Access Charter and Campaign June 2018

Post by Pam Bell » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:00 am

MikeVeal wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:21 am
British Canoeing wrote:Through the Charter, British Canoeing will be asking the Government to legislate through new modern legislation: to confirm fair, shared, sustainable open access to water.
Halejuah! We all believe that the rights of access are already enshrined in law, all we need is confirmation of the interpretation of that law.
British Canoeing wrote:The paddling community has said very clearly, it wants to see public rights enshrined in law, to move towards a model that is seen to work in Scotland.
And in the very next sentence they're back to the old mixed messages of confusion and disarray. [emoji of Mike banging his head against a wall until blood spouts profusely]
If the other thread here is a fair representation of the paddling community, it seems that the paddling community has clearly said that it wants existing rights confirmed, not that it wants new rights.
What aspect of the Scottish access legislation are you objecting to Mike? With all user-groups working together, Scotland achieved a lot more from their new legislation, enshrining existing rights with new ones to enhance them, than acknowledgement of the existing right to paddle rivers. From the paddlers' point of view: access across land to/from/alongside the water; lochs and reservoirs where access was previously denied; presumption in favour of access...

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Re: The new Access Charter and Campaign June 2018

Post by MikeVeal » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:42 pm

There's nothing wrong with the Scottish system Pam, I was not suggesting that there was.

It is British canoeing's language that I found fault with. I do not want any new rights, I don't want anyone to renegotiate the rights that I already have as a paddler. From the other threads on this forum, I think my view is broadly representative of the paddling community.

The idea of "Enshrining existing rights" is bull. We believe we have a legal right, we do not need new legislation to enshrine anything. The right already exists in law.

It's like asking for new legislation to enshrine your right to cycle on the highway. It simply isn't needed, you already have that right. Worse, it gives anyone who opposes your existing rights a chance to lobby for the new legislation to impose restrictions that were not present in the existing legislation. It is a very foolish and dangerous thing to do.

What we do need is confirmation that our interpretation of the law is correct, as our view is disputed. Only if that battle is lost should we seek new legislation.

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Pam Bell
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Re: The new Access Charter and Campaign June 2018

Post by Pam Bell » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:09 pm

MikeVeal wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:42 pm
There's nothing wrong with the Scottish system Pam, I was not suggesting that there was.
'The Scottish system is broadly what BC are calling for.
It is British canoeing's language that I found fault with. I do not want any new rights, I don't want anyone to renegotiate the rights that I already have as a paddler. From the other threads on this forum, I think my view is broadly representative of the paddling community.
This forum is one source of opinion. Another, the recent BC consultation, showed that of those who responded (about 670 I believe) over 98% were in support of the proposed direction. The WoW FB page, dedicated to campaigning for legislation similar to the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, has over 4,000 supporters, and over 3,000 signed the WoW petition for this legislation in 2016.
The idea of "Enshrining existing rights" is bull. We believe we have a legal right, we do not need new legislation to enshrine anything. The right already exists in law.
I agree that the right exists in law, but that does not stop many of us from being prevented from exercising that right by fear of challenge.

We may know we have the legal right, but that does not mean that if we do nothing we will have it for ever. Also, not everyone wants to have to argue the case every time they go out on the water, particularly if they have children with them.

You may have access to and egress from the rivers you paddle, in places that are convenient to you, but not everyone is that lucky, and not everyone wants to paddle rivers.
It's like asking for new legislation to enshrine your right to cycle on the highway. It simply isn't needed, you already have that right.

The difference is that your right to cycle on the highway is clearly set out in the highway code, which is binding in law on all users.
Worse, it gives anyone who opposes your existing rights a chance to lobby for the new legislation to impose restrictions that were not present in the existing legislation. It is a very foolish and dangerous thing to do.

They already have that chance. There have been calls for legislation to restrict canoeing. Scotland's existing access came under increasing pressure, before they passed new legislation to enshrine the rights they already had, along with new rights to enhance the enjoyment of those. IMO it is much more 'foolish and dangerous' to be complacent about the situation until it may be too late.
What we do need is confirmation that our interpretation of the law is correct, as our view is disputed.
I agree that would help considerably. Both Welsh and Westminster governments have so far refused to go down this route.
Only if that battle is lost should we seek new legislation.
I don't see much likelihood of that battle being lost, but in that event, I wouldn't fancy our chances...

Maybe we will have to agree to differ!

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Re: The new Access Charter and Campaign June 2018

Post by Chris Bolton » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:44 pm

The issue as I see it is the Governments don't interpret law; courts do that. The separation of roles is a key constitutional principle. Courts will only rule if there's as dispute - so far, nobody has wanted to get the courts involved - it can be very expensive.

So if Government are to do anything, it would have to be new law, as in Scotland. That could have the advantage of giving access TO the water, which I don't think anyone believes we have (except where there's a right of way) the in England and Wales now.

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Re: The new Access Charter and Campaign June 2018

Post by MikeVeal » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:42 am

Pam Bell wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:09 pm
This forum is one source of opinion. Another, the recent BC consultation, showed that of those who responded (about 670 I believe) over 98% were in support of the proposed direction.
Odd, I don't remember bring asked any yes/no questions in the survey, especially not if I was in support of the proposed direction. I did answer broadly positively, but it should have been very clear from my response that I felt that Canoe England (BC? I can't keep up, can't we just call them the BCU?) needed to tweak their approach.
I look forward to seeing the survey results and unadulterated comments published.
I agree that the right exists in law, but that does not stop many of us from being prevented from exercising that right by fear of challenge.
[Thumbsup]

Mike Veal wrote:It's like asking for new legislation to enshrine your right to cycle on the highway. It simply isn't needed, you already have that right.
The difference is that your right to cycle on the highway is clearly set out in the highway code, which is binding in law on all users.
That's a common misconception. The Highway Code is not binding law. It is a concise guide to interpreting motoring / cycling legislation, eg the Road Traffic Act: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/40/contents and many more.

They already have that chance. There have been calls for legislation to restrict canoeing. Scotland's existing access came under increasing pressure, before they passed new legislation to enshrine the rights they already had, along with new rights to enhance the enjoyment of those. IMO it is much more 'foolish and dangerous' to be complacent about the situation until it may be too late.

Firstly, Scotlands legislation did not enshrine existing rights, it replaced them. Please stop using this misleading rah-rah language.
Secondly I said nothing about being complacent. Nor did I suggest that any attempt to restrict our existing rights should not be robustly defended.
I was attempting to point out the madness of owning a nice cake with a cherry on, coveted by powerful groups of drooling men who, poor things, mainly eat fish, then going to the government and saying "About this cake, I'm not sure that I really own it, let's renegotiate my rights."
You are not campaigning to enshrine rights. You are campaigning to replace old rights with new, probably altered, ones. And in doing so, you are inviting to the negotiating table those who seek to remove your existing rights. This is folly, we already have the rights we need.
I agree that would help considerably. Both Welsh and Westminster governments have so far refused to go down this route.
As Chris points out. That is not within their remit. They are being asked to do the wrong thing.
As the Highway Code offers guidance on road related legislation, the Countryside Code offers similar guidance for users of the great outdoors. Inclusion of our rights in the Countryside Code would go a very long way towards resolving the issues of being challenged.

Maybe we will have to agree to differ!
You are of course entitled to your opinion, however wrong you may be! :D

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