Bl**dy Rolling

Inland paddling
Alec
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 2:45 pm
Location: Edinburgh
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Alec »

EJ - recently made video.
That video is from 8-9 years ago

I'll let you read this thread for some opinions on EJ as a coach

viewtopic.php?t=71604

Maybe I need to qualify my comment about sculling for support a little. It can be useful for developing different paddle movements and how they feel however it needs to be done correctly and safely - unfortunately this is rare. If you go and watch someone sculling for support at your local club / pool session they will likely be pinned onto the back deck doing massive sweeping sculls with dangerously extended arms and shoulders. This position is so reinforced in their muscle memory that on encountering a grade 3 wave they automatically lean back on to their back deck with the resultant loss in stability and inevitable capsize. As they capsize they try to prevent the capsize with some sculling (the only support stroke they're in a position to attempt) which fails because their technique is poor. They then roll or swim then head to the next week's pool session where they yet again practice badly sculling for support in the vain hope that if they can hold a boat on its side in a pool this will somehow translate to improved stability on a river.

Franky
Posts: 563
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:07 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky »

Alec wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:31 am
EJ - recently made video.
That video is from 8-9 years ago

I'll let you read this thread for some opinions on EJ as a coach

viewtopic.php?t=71604

Maybe I need to qualify my comment about sculling for support a little. It can be useful for developing different paddle movements and how they feel however it needs to be done correctly and safely - unfortunately this is rare. If you go and watch someone sculling for support at your local club / pool session they will likely be pinned onto the back deck doing massive sweeping sculls with dangerously extended arms and shoulders. This position is so reinforced in their muscle memory that on encountering a grade 3 wave they automatically lean back on to their back deck with the resultant loss in stability and inevitable capsize. As they capsize they try to prevent the capsize with some sculling (the only support stroke they're in a position to attempt) which fails because their technique is poor. They then roll or swim then head to the next week's pool session where they yet again practice badly sculling for support in the vain hope that if they can hold a boat on its side in a pool this will somehow translate to improved stability on a river.
If they're sculling badly, someone should show them what they're doing wrong and correct them - same as anything else in kayaking.

When I first practised sculling and high braces I was told I extended my arms too much. It didn't take much adjustment to extend them less. (Incidentally, I've never heard anyone criticise moves that are just as risky to the shoulders, such as extending an arm to the other side of the kayak to get the paddle in vertical. This is clearly effective in many circumstances, but it only takes one shoulder injury to stop you doing it and accept that you're going to have to adopt less stylish, less efficient techniques.)

I'm not sure that I've seen anyone attempting to scull on white water in the circumstances you describe. Like many paddlers, at first I used to lean back when I encountered intimidating features, but I forced myself to stop doing it and to adopt an assertive posture. Most people improve step by step, and no bad technique is so ingrained that it can't be replaced by good technique. You soon learn what doesn't work on real rivers and gradually your technique improves.

As for leaning back while rolling (viz. the link you gave to the other thread): this is how Ken Whiting taught it and how I learned it. In fact, I believe it's how it was taught in all the videos I watched when I was learning to roll - and that was only 3 years ago.

The technical argument for leaning back is that it increases your angular momentum at the crucial moment - the same principle by which a ballerina spins faster by moving her arms down to her sides. From experience, I can say that it works, and means you have to use remarkably little muscle power to get back upright.

I understand the argument that leaning back exposes you to rocks, but as long as you remember to tuck forward as soon as you go under, this risk doesn't seem that serious - since by the time you're leaning back you're well away from the river bed, at least if your roll is successful. I'd rather have a solid roll with slight extra edge-case risks if it doesn't work, than a "safe" roll that is less effective. My roll may not be technically perfect, but it is reliable. I've used it in rocky rivers, and of the numerous bruises and cuts I've received, none have been to the face during a roll.

You can't eradicate the risk of injury from white water kayaking. Look at the former advocacy of the low brace over the high brace - theoretically safer, but of such limited practical effectiveness that you might as well not bother.

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3658
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland »

Franky/ wrote: I understand the argument that leaning back exposes you to rocks, but as long as you remember to tuck forward as soon as you go under, this risk doesn't seem that serious - since by the time you're leaning back you're well away from the river bed, at least if your roll is successful. I'd rather have a solid roll with slight extra edge-case risks if it doesn't work, than a "safe" roll that is less effective. My roll may not be technically perfect, but it is reliable. I've used it in rocky rivers, and of the numerous bruises and cuts I've received, none have been to the face during a roll.

You can't eradicate the risk of injury from white water kayaking. Look at the former advocacy of the low brace over the high brace - theoretically safer, but of such limited practical effectiveness that you might as well not bother.
Yes, exactly. There's far to much (often conflicting) fuss about the perfect technique for rolling. If it gets you up reliably it's the perfect technique for you.
I've ranted on enough about rolling being in the head rather than with the perfect technique. I do worry that all the focus on specifics are getting in the way of the two basics. Set up right without rushing to roll, and actually getting your head around the basic mechanics of the motion required.
dave

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3658
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland »

Here's a side note on rolling psychology...
Last season my shoulder was giving me grief. In part from trying to hand roll and knackering it up at polo. So after a few rivers where I hadn't rolled, I started worrying that my shoulder might affect my 'normal' roll.
Obviously the thing to do would be to just do a quick roll at the start of the river to find out, right?
But I didn't want to. I actually don't think I wanted to find out in case the answer was that my roll wasn't 100% any more.
So I paddled on not knowing. And it messed with my head. A lot. So much that I paddled like a gimp.
Until I rolled. And it hurt. I came up okay but it was sore.
So it affected my confidence. So I paddled like a gimp. And rolled. And it hurt...

So, my shoulder's all great again now and guess what?
My paddling has jumped loads as I'm now fully confident in my roll again.

It's totally a head game.
dave

User avatar
Chalky723
Posts: 934
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:56 pm
Location: Cambridgeshire
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chalky723 »

DaveBland wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:52 pm

Obviously the thing to do would be to just do a quick roll at the start of the river to find out, right?
But I didn't want to. I actually don't think I wanted to find out in case the answer was that my roll wasn't 100% any more.
This, a thousand times this!

Totally a head game.

D
Jackson Nirvana, LL Remix 69, BMW F650GS...

User avatar
TechnoEngineer
Posts: 3354
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:47 pm
Location: Berks, Hants, Essex
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer »

I use a sculling recovery if I attempt to roll up on an eddy line; the flow of the water makes the sweep ineffective so you have to get lift from sculling forwards.

In terms of the EJ thing - if the elbows are tucked into the body then pretty much any technique is fine, but leaning on the back deck Greenland-style is not a great way to recover from a roll in moving water in a short boat, especially if the backrest is close to the cockpit coaming.
XL-Burn-3 / Monstar / XPlore-X/ My Videos

gp.girl
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:54 pm
Location: Crawley Down, West Sussex
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl »

I can't believe I thought of this but if I wear my dry suit tomorrow I can plus going to need to, practice being upside down lots! Borrowing the first boat I rolled ...... maybe a hint from the river gods? :)
I can roll :)

gp.girl
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:54 pm
Location: Crawley Down, West Sussex
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl »

Rolling left to the end needed to concentrate on the group. Yeah I know :) Went really well, half roll and full roll with float then 2 successful rolls without. Both felt unhurried, smooth, and solidly up. Will watch the video once OH has got the pictures and footage off the gopro.
I can roll :)

Kirsten
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:47 pm
Location: Highlands

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Kirsten »

Just exercise next time rescues / how to prepare for rescues during the trip and yourself are the guinea pig and do rolling. If it is failing, then the group can exercise how to do rescues :P

gp.girl
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:54 pm
Location: Crawley Down, West Sussex
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl »

Group was a bit light on experienced paddlers and included 3 inexperienced paddlers. The person most capable of helping was in a canoe and I haven't tried a rescue off a canoe yet not that I would have needed it.... A lot of the paddlers are just along for a lovely flat water trip which it was except for the rather epic muddy bank get out at the end! Thinking we'll try the Lodden next time the weir with fun wavetrain sounds like a nice place to visit and those that want to do WW in october need a bit of experience.
I can roll :)

gp.girl
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:54 pm
Location: Crawley Down, West Sussex
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl »



Sundays and Mondays rolling
I can roll :)

User avatar
TechnoEngineer
Posts: 3354
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:47 pm
Location: Berks, Hants, Essex
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer »

gp.girl wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:09 pm


Sundays and Mondays rolling
Normally I'd ask if you want feedback, but here goes anyway:
1) You're lifting the head; remember David Hasselhoff is on your paddle and you want to keep looking at him, not away from him
2) Top hand needs to be tucked into the shoulder rather than fluttering away from your body
3) When setting up, try not to reach too far forward; it makes the blade (that matters) dive. Shift both hands slightly towards the stern, and you'll find it easier to break the surface
4) You're tending to pull the blade down rather than sweeping out to the side; get someone to guide you in a pool session.
XL-Burn-3 / Monstar / XPlore-X/ My Videos

Mccalley
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:13 pm

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Mccalley »

Rolling certainly takes some practice. I'm struggling with it too!

MaverickvRS
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:00 pm
Location: West Sussex
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by MaverickvRS »

Some people just take the mickey...

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3658
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland »

TechnoEngineer wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:46 pm
[
4) You're tending to pull the blade down rather than sweeping out to the side; get someone to guide you in a pool session.
That.
dave

Franky
Posts: 563
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:07 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky »

MaverickvRS wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:59 pm
Some people just take the mickey...
There's a point at which "odd" becomes "creepy"... Perhaps the point at which you don a gimp suit.

Chris Bolton
Posts: 3278
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:33 pm
Location: NW England
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 131 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Chris Bolton »

4) You're tending to pull the blade down rather than sweeping out to the side; get someone to guide you in a pool session.
Yes. My first ever successful roll was when I decided I would just practice sweeping on the surface to get the paddle out to the side at 90º, without actually trying to roll. So I did that, succeeded in getting the paddle to that position, and was startled to find that the boat was almost upright and it required minimal effort to complete the roll.

gp.girl
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:54 pm
Location: Crawley Down, West Sussex
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl »

Chris Bolton wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:13 pm
4) You're tending to pull the blade down rather than sweeping out to the side; get someone to guide you in a pool session.
Yes. My first ever successful roll was when I decided I would just practice sweeping on the surface to get the paddle out to the side at 90º, without actually trying to roll. So I did that, succeeded in getting the paddle to that position, and was startled to find that the boat was almost upright and it required minimal effort to complete the roll.
I have a horrible feeling mine involved yanking the paddle down and throwing myself upright! Some where I have footage of my entry for worst successful roll. Wait for boat to settle, no, set up, no, sweep, no, head up last, no, upright, yes!?

Never had much luck with sweeping the blade out, tends to foul on the back of the boat, not much recently probably because I'm not sweeping. Will try just sweeping it next time and setup further back hopefully OH will be fine to do filming and rescue! Guiding the paddle works fine but I revert to old habits ASAP.

At least I can get upright :)
I can roll :)

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3658
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland »

As Chris B says above, and as I keep harping on about, get set up and focus on where the blade is and what's happening to the blade as it moves. Do this with no expectation of rolling. Just get the blade in a nice out the water [certainly on the surface] position and cock that wrist so the blade can skim the surface without the leading edge diving – and focus on the sweep out to as close to 90 degrees as you can.

Keep working on this without any pull and don't try to get up. Once you've got the movement and motion down, the slightest pull while you are doing it will pop you up.
dave

Franky
Posts: 563
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:07 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Franky »

After many attempts to master the screw roll - actually skimming the blade over the surface of the water till it's at 90 degrees - I reverted to the C-to-C roll, i.e. you set up, move the blade to 90 degrees while it's totally out of the water, then plunge it down and backwards - with, to adapt TechnoEngineer's suggestion, Claudia Schiffer sitting on the blade.

The C-to-C is less elegant than the screw, but it's much easier to concentrate on the individual actions.

When I watch footage of my rolling, it looks like a screw roll (maybe it's morphed over time) - but that's not how it feels. It very much feels like a series of steps.

So my suggestion is, if you're having trouble getting the movements right for the screw roll, go for a C-to-C. That way you are sure of getting your blade at 90 degrees to the boat, and therefore getting maximum leverage.

I too was thinking of mentioning that you raise your head too soon once it's out of the water - but you didn't say you wanted feedback so I didn't say it. By far the most important thing is that you got up - and you took your time about it, which is very good. You'll probably find that you fine-tune the movements instinctively over time. That said, keeping your head looking at David Hasselhof will definitely reduce the amount of physical effort you need.

When you've been doing it for a while, you'll find that even if you are exhausted, missing eddies, and making all sorts of stupid mistakes when upright, you will roll every time because it actually takes very little physical effort. It's all about taking your time and waiting till you can get the blade out of the water. If the water's pulling your limbs in all directions, wait a few seconds. Let yourself be flushed down drops if necessary. After a few seconds - 5 at the maximum on artifical courses - you will notice the water suddenly becoming calmer, and that's the time to go for it - again, still taking your time.

As for moving the blade back when you set up - I reckon I have my blade in the same position as you, and it works for me. I might try adjusting my technique, but as it is my roll doesn't sem broke and I'm wary of trying to fix it if it works.

gp.girl
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:54 pm
Location: Crawley Down, West Sussex
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl »

I think one of the other videos shows a roll thats more like a c2c but it still has the diving paddle bit. In the video (14 and 41 seconds) there's nowhere for the back blade to go if I sweep the paddle? It's next to the boat at the top not anywhere near the hull it has to go over.

Gave it a go, I reckon my blade would give a comerant a run for best diver. Straight for the bottom everytime. No fouling, very difficult to get it out of the water for set up. I'm trying to concentrate on the sweep or even getting the blade out to 90 degrees. Thats what it felt like, interesting that the next video looks different to how it feels. So the blade is out of the water it might even go over the hull and the boat is already starting to roll over. There's no sweep at all and I'm right about the diving. Top hand stayed down on the 2 rolls that worked.



Yeah I know I raise my head, it has improved - thats starting from a really bad head raising habit.
I can roll :)

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3658
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland »

Franky wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:06 pm
So my suggestion is, if you're having trouble getting the movements right for the screw roll, go for a C-to-C. That way you are sure of getting your blade at 90 degrees to the boat, and therefore getting maximum leverage
Yup. That too. But if you are going to put your blade in the 90 degree position, you may as well get the roll half done while you are at it with a sweep :)
As you say, it all kinda morphs together.
dave

Kirsten
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:47 pm
Location: Highlands

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by Kirsten »

in the last video, to much action with the left hand. As this hand is far out of the water it was easier to recognize it when watching the video. Your left hand should stay close to the body and do more or less nothing. Instead it is going first up and then forward, this is causing the diving of the blade. If you put a piece of foam under your left armpit it should stay there during a roll. It nearly looks whether you extent your left arm more then the right one.

What help my roll was an intensive pool session, it was more a less a one to one even we were 5 or 6 people as working in pairs in a small pool. The actual coach was filming with an iPad and used CoachesEye (or something like this), an App where you can slow down the footage and going back and forwards step by step, immediately at the pool side. So I did a roll, went to the pool side, got the analysis and went off for the next attempt, trying to work on what was pointed out. Starting with the biggest mistake/the one with the most effect and when this was ok, next topic. Because of the direct feedback and see myself just moments after the roll was very effective and just a few rolls were needed to get stuff sorted.

gp.girl
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:54 pm
Location: Crawley Down, West Sussex
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl »

Thought about doing direct feedback but don't have anything capable of doing it. Will try sticking something under my arm next and hopefully actually sweeping! Thats as far up as the right arm goes then normally ends up somewhere behind me under the boat. Left needs to be higher to get the blade past the boat so it's always going to start at an angle.
I can roll :)

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3658
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland »

Don't get hung up on the 'back' blade hitting the boat. Only focus on the front blade. As you are extending out the front blade and continuing to sweep, the action rotates the boat by default so it shouldn't really catch. And if it does, just ignore it it's not important. It's all about the front blade.
dave

gp.girl
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:54 pm
Location: Crawley Down, West Sussex
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl »

Can someone tell the back blade this? Used to stop dead and\or move the pivot point 45cm further back! Probably one reason why I never 'got' sweeping. At one point I tried sweeping with the back blade going under the stern of the boat in the water to try to get the front blade out. Obviously this doesn't work.
I can roll :)

User avatar
TechnoEngineer
Posts: 3354
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:47 pm
Location: Berks, Hants, Essex
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer »

Franky wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:06 pm
As for moving the blade back when you set up - I reckon I have my blade in the same position as you, and it works for me. I might try adjusting my technique, but as it is my roll doesn't sem broke and I'm wary of trying to fix it if it works.
My roll went through a shaky period and I realised that I was going *too* far the other way; the front blade was so far out of the water that the sweep was in mid-air, so it didn't provide any pre-rotation before rotating the knees. The sweep needs to be on the surface, not above it.
XL-Burn-3 / Monstar / XPlore-X/ My Videos

User avatar
TechnoEngineer
Posts: 3354
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 7:47 pm
Location: Berks, Hants, Essex
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by TechnoEngineer »

Kirsten wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:17 pm
Your left hand should stay close to the body and do more or less nothing. Instead it is going first up and then forward, this is causing the diving of the blade. If you put a piece of foam under your left armpit it should stay there during a roll. It nearly looks whether you extent your left arm more then the right one.
This is true; a lot of the time I see people extend it so they get the rear blade clear of the hull. That's fine at the end of the sweep, but they often forget to pull it back it at the end of the roll. Also, if the rear hand is extended at the beginning of the sweep, it will cause the front blade to dive (think of the paddle shaft pivoting in the front hand). I do something I call the "choo choo" with the back hand, elbow in at start and finish of the roll, but away from the body at the middle of it if necessary to clear the hull.
XL-Burn-3 / Monstar / XPlore-X/ My Videos

gp.girl
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:54 pm
Location: Crawley Down, West Sussex
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by gp.girl »

TechnoEngineer wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:29 pm
Kirsten wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:17 pm
Your left hand should stay close to the body and do more or less nothing. Instead it is going first up and then forward, this is causing the diving of the blade. If you put a piece of foam under your left armpit it should stay there during a roll. It nearly looks whether you extent your left arm more then the right one.
This is true; a lot of the time I see people extend it so they get the rear blade clear of the hull. That's fine at the end of the sweep, but they often forget to pull it back it at the end of the roll. Also, if the rear hand is extended at the beginning of the sweep, it will cause the front blade to dive (think of the paddle shaft pivoting in the front hand). I do something I call the "choo choo" with the back hand, elbow in at start and finish of the roll, but away from the body at the middle of it if necessary to clear the hull.
Get this as my front blade does little else but dive but still can't see and certainly haven't experienced any way of sweeping it round without either the back blade hitting the boat before I get anywhere or the top hand being up past the boat or the front blade diving to give room for the back blade to miss the boat. Loads of videos showing sweeps, not one showing the fouling problem so it must be easy/obvious. It's interesting how much further other people rotate boat over and how near the surface they get during setup compared to me. I do the sweep (dive) from almost completely flat in the water

On a slightly positive note I might have sorted a camera out so I can actually watch what happens straight away. No idea when I'm going to get a chance to try though.
I can roll :)

User avatar
DaveBland
Posts: 3658
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Calgary Canada
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Bl**dy Rolling

Post by DaveBland »

Totally left field thought... have you checked your shoulder mobility? It sounds like you may be struggling to get the blade up into position due to a lack of flexibility in your shoulder. Can you point straight up in the air with your right arm then bend at the elbow so the forearm comes over the top of your head, pointing to the left side?
dave

Post Reply

Return to “Whitewater and Touring”