Tubular Tape / Sling

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no-no
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Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by no-no » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:07 pm

I did a swift water rescue course a couple of months ago, only just got around to buying some of the stuff I should be carrying, sling, carabiners....

I can't remember what our instructor said about slings, is it better to have a closed stiched loop or an open piece of tape you can knot when needed? He was telling us that a knot can weaken the tape when under strain so I guess a stiched one is better?

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by Adrian Cooper » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:29 pm

Palm offer a couple of tape solutions; using an untied tape with a loop sewn into either one or both ends. The double looped one could be tied or linked with a krab. Understood that tying makes a tape or rope weaker but consider the breaking strain of the tape and decide if reducing this by half would make enough of a difference to worry about. They start off quite strong.

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Jim
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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by Jim » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:36 pm

no-no wrote:I did a swift water rescue course a couple of months ago, only just got around to buying some of the stuff I should be carrying, sling, carabiners....

I can't remember what our instructor said about slings, is it better to have a closed stiched loop or an open piece of tape you can knot when needed? He was telling us that a knot can weaken the tape when under strain so I guess a stiched one is better?
All knots reduce the breaking strength of a rope or tape, the amount depends on the type of knot. Sometimes it doesn't matter, other times it will.
Palm have come up with a neat solution that gives the flexibility of an open tape but can be made into a closed loop without tying - look for their RED rescue tapes, each tape has a small eye stitched into each end big enough to feed a krab through. You can put a different krab through each end for a long single belay, or thread both ends onto the same krab to make a closed loop.
Be aware that the yellow palm tape only has a loop at one end, the other has some velcro - I don't see the benefit of this but some people seem to thnk one of each is a good combo, I carry 2 red, although one of my krabs has gone missing.

You can still knot the red tape if you need to use it in different ways.

Sounds like you need to do more rescue practise to drum inthe stuff you learned on the course....

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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by Mark Dixon » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:16 pm

I purposely bought a new Peak BA to have room for emergency slings. I carry a 5 metre yellow snakeskin type sling with a sewn in loop on 1 end, I keep this curled neatly and can be deployed as a quick throw line close quarters or ina quick pin situation.
I also carry a 5 metre standard red tape just knotted with a figure 8 and a quick clip caribiner for clipping a boat in water etc. Also wrapped neatly for quick deployment, instead of £15 its about £6.50 for same thing, its not difficult to tie a knot and knot weakening is relative to our sport, its no big deal.
Mark

no-no
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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by no-no » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:28 pm

Yep, I definitely need to go over it all again, it's amazing how quick you forget it if you don't practice. I'll grab one of the red palm ones I think, nice design.

Cheers

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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by MikeB » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:36 pm

Mark Dixon wrote:- - its not difficult to tie a knot and knot weakening is relative to our sport, its no big deal.
Back in the day, when I was climbing, we made up slings using a tape knot as a matter of course. We had a reel of tape from which we just cut suitable lengths. Only later did I discover that you could buy slings all nicely sewn!

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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by Chalky723 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:50 pm

I got the local tent repair shop to sew another loop on the other end of my yellow Palm tape - never understood why they only did it with one end in the first place.

Would like to get it properly bar tacked at some stage but can't seem to find anywhere that can/will do it....

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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by MarkEb » Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:24 pm

Seem to recall that the yellow Palm tape is a 5m tape but the red one is only 4m. Might or might not be a factor which influence purchase.
I have the yellow tape. I think it has a breaking strain of about 3MT. On this basis, even if a knot reduced the strength by a third that would still leave a breaking strength of about 2MT. My throwline by contrast is about 500kg so as Mark said, I don't think reduced strength due to a knot is a huge factor for us.

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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by Mark Dixon » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:11 pm

MarkEb wrote:Seem to recall that the yellow Palm tape is a 5m tape but the red one is only 4m. Might or might not be a factor which influence purchase.
I have the yellow tape. I think it has a breaking strain of about 3MT. On this basis, even if a knot reduced the strength by a third that would still leave a breaking strength of about 2MT. My throwline by contrast is about 500kg so as Mark said, I don't think reduced strength due to a knot is a huge factor for us.
The red tape is only 4 metres, thats why I just bought 5 metres of plain red tape, a little trick I use if anyones concerned about knots tightening during a boat extraction a good idea is to insert a caribiner into the middle of knot, that way when you break everything down its dead easy to undo. If you havent a spare crab then a stick will do the same thing. Breaking strengths only need to be reckoned with if climbing is involved.
Mark

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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by The Chuckster » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:39 pm

One reason that sewn slings are not ideal on a river is that if one fell out of a PFD pcoket (or some people tuck them up their cag) then it could present itself as an entrapment hazard if a swimmer came down the river at a later date. Also if for the people who carry them up their cag it came partially out it could also snag.

An un-sewn piece of tape gives the option to put it around a bigger anchor or thread in through something.

The yellow palm tape I believe was only made with one loop as tapes are probably most often used in chase boating situations. Therefore when you clipped on to the boat, you didn't have a loop in the system. If you needed to use it as a traditional anchor then tie a tape knot/overhand knot. I guess Palm saw the demand for the red version and made it! The early yellow ones had the loop in the middle of the coil, which made it harder to clip a krab in to. The newer ones have it on the outside making clipping in much easier

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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by no-no » Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:30 pm

Mark Dixon wrote:
MarkEb wrote:Seem to recall that the yellow Palm tape is a 5m tape but the red one is only 4m. Might or might not be a factor which influence purchase.
I have the yellow tape. I think it has a breaking strain of about 3MT. On this basis, even if a knot reduced the strength by a third that would still leave a breaking strength of about 2MT. My throwline by contrast is about 500kg so as Mark said, I don't think reduced strength due to a knot is a huge factor for us.
The red tape is only 4 metres, thats why I just bought 5 metres of plain red tape, a little trick I use if anyones concerned about knots tightening during a boat extraction a good idea is to insert a caribiner into the middle of knot, that way when you break everything down its dead easy to undo. If you havent a spare crab then a stick will do the same thing. Breaking strengths only need to be reckoned with if climbing is involved.
Mark
Which knot are you using? The water knot? can you post a pic? Sounds useful.

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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by Mark Dixon » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:22 pm

no-no wrote:
Mark Dixon wrote:
MarkEb wrote:Seem to recall that the yellow Palm tape is a 5m tape but the red one is only 4m. Might or might not be a factor which influence purchase.
I have the yellow tape. I think it has a breaking strain of about 3MT. On this basis, even if a knot reduced the strength by a third that would still leave a breaking strength of about 2MT. My throwline by contrast is about 500kg so as Mark said, I don't think reduced strength due to a knot is a huge factor for us.
The red tape is only 4 metres, thats why I just bought 5 metres of plain red tape, a little trick I use if anyones concerned about knots tightening during a boat extraction a good idea is to insert a caribiner into the middle of knot, that way when you break everything down its dead easy to undo. If you havent a spare crab then a stick will do the same thing. Breaking strengths only need to be reckoned with if climbing is involved.
Mark
Which knot are you using? The water knot? can you post a pic? Sounds useful.
I use a figure 8 for virtually everything, I learnt about sticking a caribiner in the knot on AWWSR course, it saves a lot of hassle breaking down kit

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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by MikeB » Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:15 am

no-no wrote:
Which knot are you using? The water knot? can you post a pic? Sounds useful.
What do you want to achieve? A long sling - in which case the water knot (also known as a "tape knot" - as per my link earlier) ? Or a loop in the end of the tape (or rope)? In which case a figure-of-eight as suggested is the solution. The krab idea works really well - but generally a figure 8 will release even without it, even having been under considerable tension. A simple overhand knot will also create a loop, but will usually be seriously hard to release after tension.

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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by no-no » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:46 am

ah, I was wondering which knot you were using, we were shown how to make a figure 8 with an extra loop or two to stop it tightening too much when you're making a loop at the end of a sling for an anchor point. Trying to picture where in the figure 8 the krab goes.

Worth trying all this stuff out.

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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by MikeB » Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:34 pm

no-no wrote:ah, I was wondering which knot you were using, we were shown how to make a figure 8 with an extra loop or two to stop it tightening too much when you're making a loop at the end of a sling for an anchor point. Trying to picture where in the figure 8 the krab goes.

Worth trying all this stuff out.
Knowing knots is fun! Not to mention useful. Nothing worse than having your belay come undone, or the knots or lashings holding your boat on the rack come loose - -

The Figure 8 with an extra turn is known as a Figure 9 - amusingly! As regards the insertion of a krab or a stick, without wishing to hi-jack Mark's post about that too much, I just insert it into the knot any old where. But perhaps I'm not following best practise :-) Anyway, the aim is just to stop the knot tightening up on itself too much, so making it easier to undo.

This said, I've never, ever, had a Figure 8 I couldn't undo, even when it had been under extreme and prolonged tension, typically when building things like tripods and bridges back in my Scouting days, and of course that was generally using hawser-laid rope. Or after use in a climbing situation where they were under tension for abseils, or tie-ins which have taken a fall. I've certainly had overhand knots which have had to be cut off the end of the rope!

Enjoy! Mike.

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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by nutterboy » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:42 pm

When we were looking at slings and tapes n a WRT course we actually looked at the palm tapes and discovered that they only have a 10kn breaking strain, compared to 22kn for plain tape off the reel. Obviously it depends what you want to use the tape for and 10kn will be plenty strong enough for the majority of situations but if your planning on doing deep gorges or think whatever your doing will exceed 10kn remember that the palm tapes arent as strong as tape off the reel
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Re: Tubular Tape / Sling

Post by Chalky723 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:26 am

My Palm Alpine 11mm rope is only 10kn, should be more than enough for most situations, can't see much real advantage to having a sling with a higher breaking strain than the rope that's going to be part of the same system.

Plus, after a year or so of wet/dry/wet/dry I'd be interested to see some tests showing what the breaking strain of any of our gear really is....

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