Who needs to launch new boats?

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Whitey1
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Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Whitey1 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:55 am

Is it just me or has this been the quietest (and dullest) year in ages for new boats? What would YOU like to see launched at OR in August if you had a magic wand. I'd like to see a new (in no particular order) ...............
1. Wavesport, new Diesel along lines of Karma, Mamba etc.
2. Jackson, new displacement creeker now Villain has gone.
3. Liquid Logic, new playboat, they just don't compete.
4. Pyranha, new outfitting to be as good as their hull designs.
5. Dagger, dare I say new Nomad or is such a suggestion mere blasphemy?
6. Do all of them need new RiverPlay kayaks or is it time to give up on that altogether? Fun's seem to do quite well but what about the Fuse, Freeride, Varun (gone I think) and can't even think if Dagger have one. Or how about playboats from the likes of Zet or some others to challenge Jackson.

Any more ideas out there? Looks like there's nothing new in the pipelines unless they are all keeping very close counsel.

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Jones Chris » Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:45 am

Probably not popular but I'd like Dragorossi to do a new playboat, loved my Fish but my knees just can't cope with the seating position. It's probably more correct to say I'd like Corran Addison to design a new playboat - I've loved his designs from the Glide onwards but he's too busy playing with SUP boards now - shame.

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Lancs_lad
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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Lancs_lad » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:12 am

Why do they need to produce new boats? Do you not like your current boat? Or do you collect boats?

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Chalky723 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:55 am

It's probably getting harder to find and add that one little thing that actually improves the paddling experience.

There are only so many designs, shapes and features - I think there's still a lot of scope for improving the outfitting of boats, but the outsides are probably pretty close to being optimum for most people...

C
Jackson Nirvana, LL Remix 69, BMW F650GS...

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:06 pm

I am sure each manufacturer will have decided which part of the market they will be aiming at. Just as Perception got out of the playboat market and then restricted themselves to SOTs and tourers; Dagger moved out of the playboat market, as did Liquid Logic. I am guessing that the more specialist boats, and in these I include playboats and creekers, have such a limited market that it is even now quite saturated. Indeed, many playboats, whilst needing to be highly competitive for the competitions, need also to be quite forgiving to extend their appeal to paddlers with more limited skills.

Note that Dagger, Wavesport and Perception are all owned by Confluence Watersports who will not want their individual companies competing with each other too much unless the market is big enough.

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Whitey1 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:42 pm

Postby Lancs_lad » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:12 am

Why do they need to produce new boats? Do you not like your current boat? Or do you collect boats?
Cheeky devil Lancs Lad, course I like my boats and no I don't collect them, only got two at the moment and one of them was made in 2008! They need to produce new boats because that's what they do for a business. They try and make boats that are better than their previous models and better than the competition. Maybe though there are only so many ways you can design a boat for a specific purpose, but that doesn't mean there isn't a breakthough possible. For example the trend recently has been to bigger volume, continuous rocker and great big arse-end type of boats........the penalty for which is weight. See Recon, Mamba, Shiva for example.

What I'm wondering (and hoping) is has it been a quiet year because there are some breakthroughs waiting to be launched at OR? Maybe there's a breakthrough in material or construction. Maybe someone has cracked 3D printing and can produce the same features without the weight. Maybe there's a new Nomad with all the features of the previous but with massive weight reduction which will blow the opposition away? It can happen.............e.g. Honda Fireblades were considered unchallengeable until The R1 appeared and with a dedicated weight saving philosophy blew them away. So I'm hoping that maybe one of the manufacturers has a new ace up their sleeve.

Or maybe it's just a dull year for new boats!

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Neptune » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:59 pm

Whitey1 wrote:

5. Dagger, dare I say new Nomad or is such a suggestion mere blasphemy?
Have you ever heard the phrase "Don't fixed what isn't broken." ? I had a new Nomad with the new outfitting in January 2013. The only thing they have changed/updated in ten years is the outfitting. I removed the tray under the seat as it served no useful purpose for me, other than that, for me, it is still the best creek boat on the market. Others may disagree, each to their own.

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by SimonMW » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:49 pm

Maybe there's a breakthrough in material or construction.
There was a recent interview with Snowy Robertson saying that there are some pretty fancy new materials that they could use for WW kayaks, but that unlike sports like Mountain Biking etc where people will spend big money to have the latest gadget/gear, kayakers are a bunch of tight wads and it wouldn't make good business sense to do so.

Trouble with kayaking is that it is a small market to begin with, and there is an absolutely massive used market.

Outfitting is one area that needs development.

What is really needed though is a serious push for kayaking to become a much more accepted pastime. The new WW SOT's from Fluid and now from Pyranha should help it to become more accessible. There needs to be a push to show the public that WW kayaking isn't always about ball busting G4 and G5. There needs to be a change in perception amongst the public at large, as well as more presence in their psyche.

Maybe more marketing of boats, both for lower grade paddling image, as well as high grade, in general outdoors magazines and the like.

The paddle industry as a whole could be much larger, but like a lot of stuff in paddling their seems to be a bit of apathy and a sort of general acceptance that it is a small market and things should stay that way. New boats and material developments would be a lot more forthcoming if the market was a lot bigger.

There needs to be far more effort where demo boats are concerned. The lack of ease by which to find demo boats is absurd. If you want to sell a boat it is up to you as a manufacturer to work to gain my trust and confidence. Not the other way around!

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by kayak1 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:27 pm

I think playboats have reached the peak of what design can do... and think they have been that way for some time...As you take an old playboat design like the G force, Flair etc. they are still a very high performance bit of kit. Not to mention the trend to own an old slicey playboat that is cheap to buy, but still has some useful performance in it that makes your local run interesting.

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by DaveBland » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:36 pm

I was really surprised the Nano didn't catch on more. For many rivers it's all that's needed to have bundles of fun without so much risk. Sure you can paddle a play boat on creaky stuff but it's good to have all the safety features of a true creakier, but with the fun of a smaller boat.
dave

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by chriscw » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:59 am

personally to continue to support those in my town who want to try paddling I would like to launch:

1 At least two sea kayaks

2 At least two sit on tops

3 At lease 2 SUPs

4 At least one additional Canoe (really a replacement for the older of the two I have)

5 One additional small kayak perhaps a dynamo

6 A trailer to put these and the other boats I have on.

7 A bigger house/garden/boathouse to keep them all in.
Chris Clarke-Williams
Location Basingstoke

Paddling Interests:
Touring, Coaching Beginners (I am an L2K), Surf White water trips, Weir Play (I'm not good enough to put freestyle!)

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Yew » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:17 pm

Zet playboat.. Although I hear they're working on a river runner currently

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Mark Mulrain
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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Mark Mulrain » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:00 pm


Hakase
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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Hakase » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:59 pm

Mark Mulrain wrote:
Exciting!

A new creeker perhaps? Or maybe a long boat (doesn't look long enough from the video, though...)

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Mike A » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:32 pm

A small burn would be great.
Other half needs something a bit bigger than her old inazone 220 but with a lower deck height than the mk 1 or 2 burns.

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Yew » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:03 pm

Maybe something remix -esque? they could do with something between the burn and the giant battleship that is the shiva

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by tobym » Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:04 pm

Mike A wrote: Other half needs something a bit bigger than her old inazone 220 but with a lower deck height than the mk 1 or 2 burns.
z.one?

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by BryanF » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:18 am

Bring out a K2 Burn. It would be very popular with clubs and specially adapted boats for people with special needs. And would be much more cost efficient that buying in from overseas.

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by kayak1 » Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:37 am

Could they be making the first pyranha plastic freestyle surf kayak..along the lines of the Squashtail or Element..Now there's an Idea!

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by SimonMW » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:51 pm

Jackson have obliged with a new Fun.

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Jones Chris » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:50 am

kayak1 wrote:Could they be making the first pyranha plastic freestyle surf kayak..along the lines of the Squashtail or Element..Now there's an Idea!
They did one in glass years back, it was, I seem to remember, optimised for river waves but Ben White brought one out to Lanzarotee with us one Christmas, went very well. But if we are putting in requests - ill have a large one please!

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Shufflerschair » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:41 pm

Simon, Where's the new Jackson Fun?
There's nothing I can find on the JK website.

Andy

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Jim » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:32 pm

Hmm, Pyranha have teased OC1 paddlers on facebook with a photo of an old Prelude and the question of whether we would like to see them do something like that again. That video does not appear to show a plug for a new OC1 been routered....

Who needs to launch new boats - any British or Euro manufacturer with the skills to make an OC1 to rival the North American designs that are proving difficult and expensive to get hold of and get shipped here in small numbers. Royalex is dead, now is the time for PE creek canoes....

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Whitey1 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:28 am

Simon, Where's the new Jackson Fun?
There's nothing I can find on the JK website.

Andy
Last Friday Andy.

http://jacksonkayak.com/blog/2014/07/12 ... ckson-fun/

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by StoneWeasel » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:56 pm

Jones Chris wrote:
kayak1 wrote:Could they be making the first pyranha plastic freestyle surf kayak..along the lines of the Squashtail or Element..Now there's an Idea!
They did one in glass years back, it was, I seem to remember, optimised for river waves but Ben White brought one out to Lanzarotee with us one Christmas, went very well. But if we are putting in requests - ill have a large one please!
Really? I have no idea what that would be. I don't suppose you have any more information or pictures?

The only thing I can think of coming out of Pyranha in that vein at all would be the Sub Concept (which had fins everywhere) but that never made it past prototype.

Denzil

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by kayak1 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:20 pm

Pyranha guys !!!! if you are listening/looking we want a freestyle surf kayak.....that's comfortable, user friendly and better than the previous freestyle surfboats...Sqaushtail too uncomfortable, Element too tippy but will take a medium and prepared to pilot the prototype..

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Jones Chris » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:24 pm

StoneWeasel wrote:
Jones Chris wrote:
kayak1 wrote:Could they be making the first pyranha plastic freestyle surf kayak..along the lines of the Squashtail or Element..Now there's an Idea!
They did one in glass years back, it was, I seem to remember, optimised for river waves but Ben White brought one out to Lanzarotee with us one Christmas, went very well. But if we are putting in requests - ill have a large one please!
Really? I have no idea what that would be. I don't suppose you have any more information or pictures?

The only thing I can think of coming out of Pyranha in that vein at all would be the Sub Concept (which had fins everywhere) but that never made it past prototype.

Denzil
I have and will try and dig them out when Im near a PC but it basically was a cross between the one with fins everywhere and a glass prozone. It may have actually been a one off built and designed by Ben specifically for the trip, my memory fails me.

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Yew » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:25 am

Might have seen the pyranha boat at HPP last night. It looks interesting...

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Jim » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:58 am

Pyranha - if you are out there and listening.....

We still desire European made OC1s that we can get from an existing dealer network because shipping individually from the US or Canada is hugely expensive.

Bearing in mind that the Prelude is too advanced for many people and the cost of developing a new boat for a niche market is going to be difficult to recoup - how about looking at a partnership with one of the north American OC1 builders to build some of their boats under license for the European market?

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Re: Who needs to launch new boats?

Post by Hakase » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:36 pm

Yew wrote:Might have seen the pyranha boat at HPP last night. It looks interesting...
Ooooh! Can you give us a description?

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