New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

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gethroberts
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New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by gethroberts » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:38 pm

I just saw this in Code

BCU Level 4 Programme pilot

http://www.bcu.org.uk/files/code172.pdf

"The award aims to develop coaching expertise, with candidates typically coaching at the forefront of their discipline and to develop coaches who would then be in a position to influence the development of the sport going forward"

£7,000 seems like a big investment, especially when compared to the old system. Will it be worth the money and will many of the next generation of top coaches do it?

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by twopigs » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:37 am

Let's NOT have a rerun of "the new scheme is too expensive" threads here.

So the new Level 3 is no longer good enough?

If you get to the last page you'll find an add from Glenmore Lodge - where they note that funding a significant barrier...... to gaining existing qualiufications!
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:02 am

There is something like 12 of them on the course at present. The BCU L4 Coach, will follow all but one module at Stirling Universities MSc in Performance Coaching, which the course I am currently. So it was a bit of a surprise to see so many paddle sport coaches there.

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Jim » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:09 am

gethroberts wrote:£7,000 seems like a big investment, especially when compared to the old system. Will it be worth the money and will many of the next generation of top coaches do it?
My very limited understanding is that you are making a mistake to compare with the old scheme - the level 4 is not in any way equivalent to old BCU L4, it is equivalent to UKCC L4 accross all sports using UKCC. I think you will find that old BCU L5 fits in somewhere around L3 in UKCC, certainly this paragraph you quoted:
gethroberts wrote:"The award aims to develop coaching expertise, with candidates typically coaching at the forefront of their discipline and to develop coaches who would then be in a position to influence the development of the sport going forward"
Is closer to what we expect from current L5 coaches, but I am not certain that all current L5 necessarily "influence the development of the sport", although through coaching conferences they will all have input.

Will it be worth the money?
To be honest the wording there is similar to the kind of wording you see used to separate professional (i.e. chartered) engineers from all the other engineers only qualified to degree level (in order to encourage us to get chartered). That suggests to me that coaching is becoming more and more recognised as a serious career with paths to a kind of professional status, so when you are asking is £7000 for a course worth it, you need to be comparing it with the cost of a degree, or perhaps post-degree professional qualifications.
Reading again, I see from Simon's post that it is virtually a masters degree!

Does paddling need it?
Well that is entirely another line of questioning! I had some very good coaching at the weekend - for the first time in probably 15 years or more - after 20+ years of paddling I can still find things to learn so definitely there is scope for expansion in coaching, but I do kind of worry that maybe ordinary paddlers like me are going to fail to see it...????
That hasn't answered my own question - there is scope for it, but is it needed? I just don't know.
I guess it depends where we want paddling to go - and we do seem to like to push the envelope (or celebrate others doing it for us).

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by icklepaddler » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:19 am

At least it is another way for the governing bodies to spend lottery funding / ensure that elite level coaching is a closed clique.

Whether this new L4 will be of any benefit for the average paddler is doubtful.

Cynical, moi???? But then I thought that paddling was a relatively simple passtime.

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Neptune » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:03 pm

Jim wrote:
I had some very good coaching at the weekend - for the first time in probably 15 years or more
Jim,

Any chance of letting the rest of us know who delivered this very good coaching for you at the weekend so we too can access have this?

Peter

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:51 pm

icklepaddler wrote:At least it is another way for the governing bodies to spend lottery funding / ensure that elite level coaching is a closed clique.

Whether this new L4 will be of any benefit for the average paddler is doubtful.

Cynical, moi???? But then I thought that paddling was a relatively simple passtime.
Anyone can apply to do the course at Stirling, and the MSc goes beyond the Post Graduate Diploma that is the mainstay of the BCU L4. The coaches on the current L4 pilot are UK heads of centre, GB squad coaches and one or two leading contributors to the old L5 development scheme, thus a small group none the less. Will it benefit the average paddler, hmm I think Gordon Brown's huge selling DVD series has reached far and wide, as to Doug Copper's Scotland Sea Kayaking Guides, and the GB Canoeing squad successes have gone a long way to fire up the next generation.

Being cynical about the BCU is of course a very healthy thing, but not everything they do is poor nor bad. They certainly need to change a lot in my view, but its not all ineffective admin.

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Jim » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:35 pm

Neptune wrote:
Jim wrote:
I had some very good coaching at the weekend - for the first time in probably 15 years or more
Jim,

Any chance of letting the rest of us know who delivered this very good coaching for you at the weekend so we too can access have this?

Peter
I see from the way you have quoted me that it might read like I have had bad coaching in the last 15 years, just to clarify, it is that long since I have had any coaching :-)

I was at the Welsh Open Canoe Symposium so had coaching from various people but I am not sure of all the names.

The Sunday workshop with Kelvin Horner was perhaps the biggest eye opener for me in terms of stuff which I do by instinct in kayak which I simply didn't have a clue how to do in a canoe.

I have also never done any poling before and Chris ? workshop was a huge revelation in that direction - I was not as surprised to have met big revelations there though because it was an entirely alien activity!

I reccommend you borrow one of Joshua's boats and get yourself along for a course with Kelvin :-)

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by chrisjacks » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:56 pm

So is this new level 4 UKCC endorsed?

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Neptune » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:11 pm

Jim,

I have tried getting in Joshua's boats both in the pool and on moving water before now, but my knees have no cartlidge in them, so C1 is very uncomfortable for me, my knees tend to lock-up and I get crepitus (bone rubbing on bone - ooh). I can manage in a traditional open boat as I can get my position a bit higher in one of those so that my knee joints done rub together.

Now borrowing one of Joshua's boats and going along for a session with Kelvin would be an interesting experience and probably lead to loads of verbal abuse and laughter from him at my febal attempts at C1 due to his direct approach. Can't fault him really, smashing fella and very good coach.

Peter.

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:12 pm

chrisjacks wrote:So is this new level 4 UKCC endorsed?
Its BCU Level 4 and not UKCC, BCU Awarding is the awarding body.

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by gethroberts » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:36 pm

I'm actually a supporter of the BCU UKCC system - I've developed my coaching and teaching through L1, 2 and now I'm doing the 3rd level.

I had thought L3 AWE with loads of experience would also share the new L4 aims. Currently L5 with loads of experience shares this aim?

"The award aims to develop coaching expertise, with candidates typically coaching at the forefront of their discipline and to develop coaches who would then be in a position to influence the development of the sport going forward"

So, what I'm not clear on is the actual aims of the new L4, as I suspect it is far more than the aim I quoted. Clearly aside from the cost a lot of effort will be required of the participants. Why are they doing it?

I'm just curious - I'm not looking to drag up old anti-BCU UKCC sentiment.

Cheers,

Geth

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Jim » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:51 pm

Peter - Ouch!
Canoeing and bad knees don't mix well!

Geth - I think Simon's breakdown of who the participants is enlightening - centre heads, GB squad coaches and people who worked on the old L5 development..... It is the people at the top of the structure practising what they preach and improving themselves.....

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Alex Shiell » Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:25 pm

The new Level 3 is the equivalent of the old Level 5 (once you have your AWE). The new Level 4 was described to me as the award for coach educators and those right at the top of professional coaching.

It will generally be wholly or partly paid for by employers rather than the coaches themselves. The vast majority of coaches will never need or want to do the award.

The award is not yet UKCC endorsed, but I believe they are investigating the possibility.

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by chrisjacks » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:42 am

I wondered if it was, but was told no, but the course at Stirling has UKCC slapped all over it.

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Simon Westgarth » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:59 am

chrisjacks wrote:I wondered if it was, but was told no, but the course at Stirling has UKCC slapped all over it.
The MSc in Performance Coaching, is likely to be accredited as UKCC L4. The BCU L4 follows all but one module of the MSc and will be a Post Graduate Diploma. This was what was explained to me by the BCU, who are running the BCU L4 as a pilot, applications are invited for 2014 entry. The first I knew about this was after I got a place on the MSc through Stirling University's normal entry procedures.

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by MarkEb » Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:20 pm

Anything been mentioned about what a new L4 might be able to do that a L3 UKCC can't do in terms of running assessments, courses etc?

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Simon Westgarth » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:58 pm

MarkEb wrote:Anything been mentioned about what a new L4 might be able to do that a L3 UKCC can't do in terms of running assessments, courses etc?
Run the coaching scheme......

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Lowri Davies » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:34 pm

Sorry to go on a bit of a tangent... can anyone see any author credits to the articles in Code? It would be really useful to have some idea of the background of the author and their interests, experience and profession - if relevant. All information is only as useful as the knowledge of where it has come from...

Also unrelated: lovely to see a 10 year old photo of the young miss Emily Wall on page 5!

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by MikeB » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:10 pm

Simon Westgarth wrote:
chrisjacks wrote:I wondered if it was, but was told no, but the course at Stirling has UKCC slapped all over it.
The MSc in Performance Coaching, is likely to be accredited as UKCC L4. The BCU L4 follows all but one module of the MSc and will be a Post Graduate Diploma. This was what was explained to me by the BCU, who are running the BCU L4 as a pilot, applications are invited for 2014 entry. The first I knew about this was after I got a place on the MSc through Stirling University's normal entry procedures.
So, if one did the BCU L4 PLUS whatever the additional module is, then one would also be eligible to obtain the MSc? IF so, this sounds like good joined-up thinking to me.

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Betty » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:46 pm

MikeB wrote:
Simon Westgarth wrote:
chrisjacks wrote:I wondered if it was, but was told no, but the course at Stirling has UKCC slapped all over it.
The MSc in Performance Coaching, is likely to be accredited as UKCC L4. The BCU L4 follows all but one module of the MSc and will be a Post Graduate Diploma. This was what was explained to me by the BCU, who are running the BCU L4 as a pilot, applications are invited for 2014 entry. The first I knew about this was after I got a place on the MSc through Stirling University's normal entry procedures.
So, if one did the BCU L4 PLUS whatever the additional module is, then one would also be eligible to obtain the MSc? IF so, this sounds like good joined-up thinking to me.
But no one 'did' the BCU L4... they sent off for it when they got their 5 Star and attended Coaching Process. BCU L4 s have not been assessed at a level higher than BCU L3... so they are like a UKCC L2 MWE coach with a 5 Star. ;-)

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Lowri Davies » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:09 am

You are referring to old Level 4. The above conversation is in reference to the new Level 4. They are vastly different things!

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by gizmo » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:47 am

I assume that there will be a transfer route to bring current level 5 coaches across.
Paul

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Jim » Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:35 pm

gizmo wrote:I assume that there will be a transfer route to bring current level 5 coaches across.
As far as I can tell it is higher than old level 5 so probably not.

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Re: New BCU Level 4 Coach scheme

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:46 pm

gizmo wrote:I assume that there will be a transfer route to bring current level 5 coaches across.
Yes, you can apply for the BCU Level 4 course, and its certainly well above the old BCU Level 5 award, which is more like the UKCC L3 with AWE.

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