A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

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jackmyster
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A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by jackmyster »

Hi guys,

I recently came across the dilema of buying a new kayak helmet, primarily for playboating and freestyle. Now there is so much choice out there and some helmets are crazy expensive :/ I'm an avid mountainbiker, I race and I know alot about the sport. I decided to take the gamble and buy a high end mountainbike helmet instead of paying the overprice dolla for a kayak one.

Well I wasn't dissapointed, With a great colour scheme, awesome fit and snug feel the Giro Feature was a cracking buy. The insane amounts of adjustment are amazing... with a circular ring at the back that you twist for instant rear adjustment allowing a snug feel, this helmet punches in right at the top, well above others of a similiar price... and right now at a stonking price, what's not too like? Go ahead grab yourself a bargain- this shop is free UK delivery as well as great customer serivice and with £30 + off it's a no brainer :)

http://www.dotbike.com/p/11668

Please feel free to message me with any Q's :)

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Wildwood Wil
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by Wildwood Wil »

You can get away with a lighter helmet when riding, and they need to shed a lot of heat, but theres too many big holes in it that are just waiting to eat up branches. Ooooh! No! Kayak lids need to be stiff and solid and thats where the extra price goes. Sorry, not for me!

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LiamMtb
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by LiamMtb »

what a terrible idea.

-Ginge-
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by -Ginge- »

As a mountain biker and Paddler I would like to condemn this post. Dangerous idea matey. Don't mess with your head.

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chrisps
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by chrisps »

Mountain biking helmets will completely break (by design) on the first impact; I speak from experience! Really not a good idea for kayaking where you will possibly get multiple big hits while upside down!

jackmyster
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by jackmyster »

Personally I noticed the holes are way to small to fit a stick or let alone branch in?! Also, you'll notice the sweet stuttering that kayaker use, is just the overpriced version of the mountain bike helmet that has an adjustable visor... Mountain bike helmets are completely rigid.. They have to be to be able to sustain large impacts while riding dh.. The same goes for the kayak Full Face helmets, you can either spend silly money on a kayak Full Face, but for the same price get a very nice if not carbon mtb Full Face that does the same job. All I'm doing is showing you the difference in price, that is only there because the target market is different..

axeman
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by axeman »

I may be wrong, but arent mtb helmets designed to take one impact then be thrown away , where a kayak helmet has to withstand multiple small impacts and the disposed after a larger ( serious ) one .
Im sure there's a thread on here somewhere relaiting to this ?
Last edited by axeman on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mark R
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by Mark R »

Worst. Idea. Ever.

That said, my own Giro helmet is mighty fine for its intended use, biking.
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DaveBland
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by DaveBland »

jackmyster wrote:it's a no brainer
Unfortunate choice of phrase in the light of what a daft idea it is.
dave

jackmyster
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by jackmyster »

Mmmmm quite funny I agree. Seeing as I'm getting absolutely Ripped apart only words I can use is... Yolo.

jackmyster
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by jackmyster »

Think of it as an experiment lads, if you see on the news " almighty kayaker gets munched by wave, but his helmet did shit all" you'll know not too buy one :)

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Rory W
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by Rory W »

I'm going to bite on this one. Why is it such a bad idea?

I can barely ride a bike and know virtually nothing about the construction of modern mountain bike helmets but I'm not convinced by the argument that you need a solid helmet to take multiple impacts for kayaking. Since buying my Rocker (well Trooper cos it was cheap but anyway) 4-5 years ago it's saved my head from hitting the bottom twice. Both times in the bottom hole at Teesside. I can only remember once ever hitting my head on a real river. For only £30-40 I would happily replace my helmet every time it took a serious impact. Twice I've seen people take spectacularly hard hits, completely writing off solid composite helmets and come away groggy/semi-conscious and with neck and back pain for some time afterwards.

I think lightness, comfort, fit, coverage and the ability to take a hard hit are all more important than durability in a white water helmet.

There seems to have been a move over the past few years in climbing away from heavier, solid-shelled helmets towards lighter foam ones. Even for winter and expedition type stuff.

It's obviously hard to tell from the picture, but that hat appears to have a more substantial shell that most average bike helmets and reasonable coverage. I guess there are more vents than would be ideal on a kayaking hat but I'm not sure they're realistically much of a hazard? Looks like a good lid for warm weather playboating...

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by clarky999 »

Is this not one of those super thin plastic wrapper over foam type lids? Won't deal with penetration type hits very well if so.

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by DaveBland »

Rory W wrote:I'm going to bite on this one. Why is it such a bad idea?
Okay, I said it was daft without any explanation. Here's why I think so...

For 40 quid you can get a bike helmet that may or may not degenerate with constant soakings, will probably be designed for one hit before it needs replacing and looks to have minimal coverage.

For ten quid either side of that, there are purpose-designed paddling helmets that are guaranteed to do a better job.

I agree that if it's just a bit of playboating then it probably doesn't matter that much, but why take the risk for the price of a couple of pints.
dave

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Tom_Laws
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by Tom_Laws »

Shit idea. COverage is wrong, desgin is wrong, liner is wrong (for water), impact style is wrong.

DO NOT USE HELMETS ACROSS DISCIPLINES.

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buck197
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by buck197 »

So this is about cost and not function? I like to think that paddling helmets are designed for their purpose and after a number of contacts with the river bottom, my Sweet Rocker has protected me well and will give further service. Look at how much you will or have spent on your boat and equipment then factor in the cost of a helmet which is probably 10% of the total outlay. I think that for what the helmet is protecting it is a small percentage cost of your sport. The bottom line is it is your choice what safety gear you wear but you can break many things on your body and they will repair themselves but your head is not easily repairable by surgery or replaceable.

Be careful out there
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NathanE
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by NathanE »

Tom_Laws wrote:Shit idea. COverage is wrong, desgin is wrong, liner is wrong (for water), impact style is wrong.

DO NOT USE HELMETS ACROSS DISCIPLINES.
Hmm, interesting that the Sweet Helmets that I see on the water fairly often also get sold as ski/snowboard helmets. They, and all of you who use them obviously don't have a problem using helmets across disciplines. But I guess that means you'd not go near a Sweet helmet Tom?

Skate and BMX park impacts are quite similar to kayak I would imagine.

Out of interest, does anyone know the comparative safety tests that have to be done to CE mark a Kayak, Bike and Ski helmet?

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by jam bo »

Sweet have just launched a MTB range of helmets.

they look remarkably similar to there snow/kayak helmets except for three times the price of a normal MTB helmet.

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GumGum
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by GumGum »

Looks like Giro have taken some inspiration from the Urge helmets - particularly the Endur-o-matic.

Personally I always try to match my gear to my sport. I generally have all the gear but little or no idea...

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Tom_Laws
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by Tom_Laws »

NathanE wrote:
Tom_Laws wrote:Shit idea. COverage is wrong, desgin is wrong, liner is wrong (for water), impact style is wrong.

DO NOT USE HELMETS ACROSS DISCIPLINES.
Hmm, interesting that the Sweet Helmets that I see on the water fairly often also get sold as ski/snowboard helmets. They, and all of you who use them obviously don't have a problem using helmets across disciplines. But I guess that means you'd not go near a Sweet helmet Tom?

Skate and BMX park impacts are quite similar to kayak I would imagine.

Out of interest, does anyone know the comparative safety tests that have to be done to CE mark a Kayak, Bike and Ski helmet?
DIfferent liners in the Sweet lids for different uses - based around getting manky in water. Sweet are some of a few higher end ski lids that are multi impact.

Skate and BMX impacts are NOT like kayak impacts.

Skate and BMX are single impact crashes, kayak impacts tend to be multi impact.

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by morsey »

Tom_Laws wrote:Skate and BMX are single impact crashes, kayak impacts tend to be multi impact.
MTBing is multi impact!

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by davebrads »

Though the OP does make one good observation - his £40 helmet has a great fit adjustment system that just works, and you can get similar systems on bike helmets priced at £20. Why can't kayak lids at the same price point have similar fit systems?
it's not a playboat, it's a river runner

NathanE
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by NathanE »

davebrads wrote:Though the OP does make one good observation - his £40 helmet has a great fit adjustment system that just works, and you can get similar systems on bike helmets priced at £20. Why can't kayak lids at the same price point have similar fit systems?
I reckon that it's because we all think that we need single sport helmets, and there's very few kayakers compared to bikers. Mass market bike riders just wouldn't pay £100 for a lid, but as ww paddlers we convince ourselves that this is what we really need and are relatively more committed than recreational.

I genuinely would be really interested to see the relative testing requirements for different sports helmets to see if the hype is true about multi impact, different linings etc.

I know a few paddlers who use ski versions of Sweet helmets because like for like they cost less and have no problems with the linings at all.

Skate/BMX is very definitely multi impact if you're trying! Hence these helmets do tend to have a very different construction from road riding bike helmets with different shell materials/thickness etc. I'd be very happy paddling in a BMX helmet.

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by Pyro »

Mass market bike riders just wouldn't pay £100 for a lid,
Maybe not, but the vast majority I know who ride every weekend (ie, committed to biking to the same degree as you seem to be saying for paddling) happily spend £50-75. Which, funnily enough, is about the same as you can get a good paddling lid for. Funny that...

As for the OP's post, very bad idea. VERY bad. The difference in price is nothing to do with the target market, the difference in price is the massively different design spec and materials.

Look at the type and position of the impacts you're likely to take:

- MTB helmets are designed predominantly around front and side impacts as those are the most common places you're going to hit stacking a bike. They're designed to be lightweight, well vented and airy to avoid heat build-up when you're working hard. They're also designed to take ONE significant impact and be replaced - they absorb the impact and disintegrate rather than deflect it - since (unless you're a complete CTD) head-impact crashes on bikes are fewer and further between. The outer plastic layer is more decorative than protective, the polystyrene deals with the impact. If you crash and the helmet does it's job, it's a gonner, hence why a few of the big bike helmet companies have a crash-replacement policy, giving you a new lid at a reduced price.

- Kayak helmets are designed to deflect the impact, and to deal with multiple impact directions, front, side and top. They have an absorbing liner to deal with anything the hard outer struggles with, little venting to minimise water ingress and are capable of taking multiple impacts in one go - though immediate replacement is strongly advised. When you flip, a head impact in varying forms and severities is a strong likelihood, whether that's sideways, front or top of head when you're set up to roll.

There are a handful of helmets that are CE/EN certified for multiple sports that get used a lot in Adventure Racing (Kong Scarab, Salewa Helium, Petzl Meteor III+ - all certified for MTB, climbing and paddling at least) but they're a compromise - not well vented enough for long, hot MTB, not capable of dealing with multiple hits, not really any use above G2/3, and not much use to anyone other than a Multisport racer.

As you say, yolo - You Only Live Once. So do yourself a favour and get a proper paddling lid. For only a tenner more than the Giro you can get a WRSI or an SR Standard. You'll hear people get a slating on here for wearing an old Pro-Tec or one of the other plastic potty-style lids, and they come in at the same price as that Giro. Same goes...
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Wildwood Wil
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by Wildwood Wil »

The plot thickens. Just found this, so to add some more spice to this thread. As if it needed any!

http://www.sportpursuit.com/sales/giro-goggles-helmets

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Pyro
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by Pyro »

How does that add more spice, Wil? Giro have been doing ski lids for quite a while, but they're a very seperate range from their bike lids. The Shiv/Surface/Revolver use a similar shell to their potty-bonce BMX lids, but that's about it. They're still not a kayaking helmet!
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by clarky999 »

Tom_Laws wrote:
NathanE wrote:
Tom_Laws wrote:Shit idea. COverage is wrong, desgin is wrong, liner is wrong (for water), impact style is wrong.

DO NOT USE HELMETS ACROSS DISCIPLINES.
Hmm, interesting that the Sweet Helmets that I see on the water fairly often also get sold as ski/snowboard helmets. They, and all of you who use them obviously don't have a problem using helmets across disciplines. But I guess that means you'd not go near a Sweet helmet Tom?

Skate and BMX park impacts are quite similar to kayak I would imagine.

Out of interest, does anyone know the comparative safety tests that have to be done to CE mark a Kayak, Bike and Ski helmet?
DIfferent liners in the Sweet lids for different uses - based around getting manky in water. Sweet are some of a few higher end ski lids that are multi impact.

Skate and BMX impacts are NOT like kayak impacts.

Skate and BMX are single impact crashes, kayak impacts tend to be multi impact.
Liners are the same in my fullcut Rocker, halfcut Trooper and fullface Trooper (used for boating). Agree on the rest though - and their bike helmets seem to be different.

AFAIK, the only difference in the tests Sweet do for the kayak and ski lids is a cold temperature one.

-Ginge-
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by -Ginge- »

What Sweet said in an email:

The Trooper is our base model for the Trooper/Rocker series protection helmets, this model is designed for skiing/snowboarding as you have noticed. The Trooper has the CE/EN 1077 approval (helmet for skiing/snowboarding).

We do also make a slightly modified version of this helmet, the Rocker. The Rocker helmet family is built on the same helmet frame as the Troopers, but has minor adjustments to be even more suitable for kayaking. The Rocker helmets have the CE/EN 1385 approval (helmet for whitewater kayaking and canoeing).

The helmets are quite similar in construction, and share most internal/external components, but the Trooper feature some winter helmet specifics like goggle straps etc. In general we like to say that both the helmets will perform as well for whitewater kayaking, and a crossover use is no problem. BUT, we do not recommend that you take a Rocker helmet for ski/snowboard use, as the CE standard testing for ski/snowboard helmets differ substantially from the CE standard for whitewater.

i.e. the Trooper is tested to perform in sub freezing temperatures (-25 degrees Celsius), and has some internal reinforcements to handle these temperatures, the Rocker is only tested to perform until freezing temperature.

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by soysauce »

If this is about price then why not just buy this ? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Osprey-OSX-Ca ... 337ac479b5 I just searched for the cheapest new helmet on eBay. AND it will (probably, I wouldn't test it) survive multiple impacts.

Also
dh..

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by alexpethybridge »

The biggest issue I have with is it are the holes. It wasn't until I went on a whitewater safety course and watched the instructor show us how his helmet created an air pocket for him to breathe with that I understood how important a solid shell is, any holes in the top of the helmet will destroy the pocket that is keeping you alive.
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