River Kent - Rock throwing natives

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andya
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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by andya »

agree with Callwild .. well put.

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by Glyn B »

Adrian Cooper wrote:
In my experience, the police will tell you they are sending someone and then, half an hour later will phone you back to see if the culprits are still there.
A couple of years ago as we were shutting up shop we noticed some kids walking on the asbestos roof of the building opposite our practice. We rang the police and waited for them for half an hour. (I'm not exaggerating when I say that the local station is within 400 yards of us.) The following morning they rang to ask us if they were still there.

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by steddyjames »

callwild wrote: NO NO NO
all of the above posters have just shown themselves to be also equally agressive numpties.

There is no excuse for retaliation. That is how pub fights start. Male posturing, if he hits me I'll hit him attitude. what a load of b****cks, you make me as sick as the fishermen to hear this.
What makes you think you could actually smack them in the mouth? what would it achieve?
Keep the moral ground, do not retaliate with aggression, talk reasonably and take photos of them and report any assaults.
Bugger that, if someone is throwing stones at you stand up for yourself. It's not acceptable and no one else will do anything about it if you don't.

Admittedly being a shortarse people don't always notice when I'm standing up...but that's not the point!

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by Dave McCraw »

You could go national with even half-decent headcam footage of being stoned by anglers.

If a hit or near-miss caused you to capsize, and have a hard time getting to the bank, with much arm-waving in front of the camera and choking on the mic, I should think it would be nuclear.

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by chud »

This reminds me of another thread.
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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by Paul L »

callwild wrote
NO NO NO
all of the above posters have just shown themselves to be also equally agressive numpties.

There is no excuse for retaliation. That is how pub fights start. Male posturing, if he hits me I'll hit him attitude. what a load of b****cks, you make me as sick as the fishermen to hear this.
And you make me sick. I don`t do male posturing I don`t drink and start fights I am friendly to everyone ,however I can gaurantee if some bully does anything of this sort to me then I will do as I have told my kids and stand up to them. Don`t let your self become a victim.I am happy to debate but once someone becomes agressive,actually assaults you or even threatens to then thats a different matter.And if you think that makes me a numpty I dont care because you sound like a prat.

Cheers

Paul

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by callwild »

ha ha ha
Paul L wrote:
callwild wrote
NO NO NO
all of the above posters have just shown themselves to be also equally agressive numpties.

There is no excuse for retaliation. That is how pub fights start. Male posturing, if he hits me I'll hit him attitude. what a load of b****cks, you make me as sick as the fishermen to hear this.
And you make me sick. I don`t do male posturing I don`t drink and start fights I am friendly to everyone ,however I can gaurantee if some bully does anything of this sort to me then I will do as I have told my kids and stand up to them. Don`t let your self become a victim.I am happy to debate but once someone becomes agressive,actually assaults you or even threatens to then thats a different matter.And if you think that makes me a numpty I dont care because you sound like a prat.

Cheers

Paul
ha ha ha
paul L call me what you will. prat, victim whatever, you are showing true colours of the pub brawl type. This is the attitude that is so wrong in society. There are many ways to stand your ground and not become a victim but fists is not one of them (or possibly is, in a self defence life threatening situation). I feel sorry that you see fit to train your kids in this life lesson of how to stand up for yourself.
I have walked away and diffused many potential brawl situations in my life and have actually felt far better for it than resorting to fists. The chances are in a fight you land a couple of punches and get a couple landed on you. Who has actually won that fracas? you are both victims.

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by banzer »

The problem with retaliation from a kayaker, as others have said, is it has to be premeditated rather than instant self-defence.... i.e. paddle to the bank, find an eddy, get out, walk up to rock thrower, hit rock thrower...this will take 30 seconds or longer. In the eyes of the law you are no better than them, possibly even worse: they could argue that it was an sudden impulse to throw a rock, whereas it takes us a great deal longer to retaliate.

A better way of standing up for yourself is to bring a camera or headcam, or bring a paddling policeman! Can all paddling policemen please make themselves known? I'm sure the good people of ukrgb will club together for some petrol money for one of you to come along on the Dee, Kent or Dart and tell these usual suspects that we're not in fact breaking any laws. (And I would just love it if one of them was done for assaulting a police officer!)
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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by Jim Pullen »

Paul L wrote: And you make me sick. I don`t do male posturing I don`t drink and start fights I am friendly to everyone ,however I can guarantee if some bully does anything of this sort to me then I will do as I have told my kids and stand up to them. Don`t let your self become a victim.I am happy to debate but once someone becomes aggressive,actually assaults you or even threatens to then that's a different matter. And if you think that makes me a numpty I don't care because you sound like a prat.
Cheers
Paul
Harsh Paul. I would certainly question calling the author of one of the best guidebooks to be published in the UK a prat.

Violence should always be the last resort. If you stoop to their level you are no better than them and have no place taking the moral high ground. I seem to remember that's what I was taught as a kid.
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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by quicky »

And I would just love it if one of them was done for assaulting a police officer!
One was done for firing a shotgun near last year (farmer)... Will have to start hiring them out he he.... A good way to do it is invite the local police and community officials to a kids and parents come and try session at the pool. It worked for for us then you start to point out issues to them whilst on the river.

I know a few now through introducing their kids to paddling and it is a great way to get correct info on things as well especially when you start quoting the bits of the law to some idiots.

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by Paul L »

Various people wrote
Paul L blah blah blah
Ha ha ganging up on me. I am certainly no pub brawler as I don`t drink and its not a question of taking moral high ground or being better than them or anyone for that matter. Taking the moral high ground but choosing to call fellow paddlers numpties,pub brawlers etc etc. Being as one of my kids was bullied a lot at school taking the moral high ground did`nt make me or her feel better and going through the proper channels did even less good. So I feel justified in saying what I said and stand by it. I also don`t care that someone writes a book about paddling if that same person goes on to insult someone for standing up for them selves and then winges when someone (me) calls him a name back .Petty it may have been but maybe next time you get abuse from fishermen or whoever then just stick your head back up your own a--e where it seems to be .Jim haver never met you but you seem like a decent lad ,just because someone has written a book or is a "minor celebrity " does`nt mean they can say what they want and also does`nt mean they can`t be a prat .If you need any examples of this then just look at any news paper

Cheers

Paul

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by Adrian Cooper »

a great way to get correct info on things as well especially when you start quoting the bits of the law
I'm not convinced that policemen generally have a good working knowledge of the law. For that you need a lawyer. They probably know a bit of the PACE.

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by quicky »

I'm not convinced that policemen generally have a good working knowledge of the law. For that you need a lawyer. They probably know a bit of the PACE.
They usually have enough knowledge to make a phone call and have more people than an episode of the Sweeny turn up to and say hello to said numpty, Whilst going through the finer points of the law with them that they do know about....

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by woody »

As someone who has lost my temper occasionally, especially when I feel threatened or intimidated, I have found the old primary school maxim pretty handy over the years. I believe it goes a little like this:

"two wrongs don't make a right"

Another way of thinking about it is to say that just because someone does something wrong to you, it doesn't give you the right to do something wrong to them. You still morally must uphold the standards of behaviour that you would rather they showed to you.

Simples.

Callwild I'm with you on the talking approach but it is hard to stay calm and not feel threatened when people are throwing rocks and shouting. It certainly brings out the worse side in me. Good on you for staying calm.

Wish someone would actually catch these buggers on camera.

I got verbally abused by a fisherman on the Kent last time I paddled it, no stones but I wish I'd taken a picture and reported it. If nothing else if we all did this every time then if things did take a turn for the worse and someone got hurt then at least there would be a body of evidence.

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by garya »

Passive resitance takes more courage than getting out for a fight.

History has shown it to be a more effective tactic especaily where the media are concerend or to get public opion on our side. if you sit peacfully during a protest then the police or whoever else is laying into you is being heavy handed. If you start tearing down fences and throw stuff back you will be labled the yob. This is more so the case if you are from out of town.

If we are ever to progress our campaign then we need to seek to appeal to a wider group of the public outside the paddling community. The support of the media is key to this. So as well as police reports photos, Video are key as well as the local or natioanl press following up the subsequent court or police action chapter by chapter to keep it in the press.

If they throw rocks and hit you, then fall out of your boat right where they are (if it is safe) and then spend as long as you want rescuing yourself and making a general fuss and faff about the whole episode. If they carry on thier antics then call the police then and there to deal with them. They will soon learn that letting you pass unhindered will cause far less disruption to thier day and the fishing that section of river.

if you stop to get out of your boat and then charge over to confront them that is more like retaliation. Better to clamber up the bank after your terrifying swim caused buy thier actions and whilest laying thier recovering having to defend yourself from further attack on a helpless kayaker who has just survived near drowing in a perilous river because of them. Which one do you think will read better in a headline or in front of a court ?

My usual tactic with shouting fishermen is to ignore them. if they insist on me hearing what they have to say then I politly paddle over to hear what they have to say while churning up as much of the water as possible during my turns. My usual response is " Sorry I couldn't hear you and you called me over so a assume you wanted to speak to me, if you had left me alone I would have been quietly gone by now"
They usually get the message that leaving you go by causes less disruption.

I hope more people can paddle this great river, it is certainly on my list. don't be put off, we will never change people attidudes unless we are out thier challenging them so that these incidents are published more widely are called into question by the wider public.

It is not a stance or tactic that all feel able to adpot and I can understand that some feel that it to risky for them or thier groups. For those that can we should make sure that we do get out and make sure that these indivduals do not win and that thier tactics backfire on them and support for there current position.

Some brave walker's got a few bruises many years ago on Kinder Scout and we owe then a great debt of grattitude for starting the move towards the rights of access walkers now enjoy across the contryside. I feel that the rivers access debate is comming to a head and will need soon move down the same path if we are to bring a more permanent resolution to the issue.

Gary A
Last edited by garya on Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by woody »

garya wrote:
I hope more pople can paddle this great river, it is certainly on my list.

Gary A
Yeah man, I've been paddling it for a few years now and only once had hassle. Don't be put off folks, it's a cracking river.

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by Adrian Cooper »

garya wrote:Some brave walker's got a few bruises many years ago on Kinder Scout
And a bit more besides as I understand. Several were jailed.

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by Alec Ferris »

banzer wrote:The problem with retaliation from a kayaker, as others have said, is it has to be premeditated rather than instant self-defence.... i.e. paddle to the bank, find an eddy, get out, walk up to rock thrower, hit rock thrower...this will take 30 seconds or longer. In the eyes of the law you are no better than them, possibly even worse: they could argue that it was an sudden impulse to throw a rock, whereas it takes us a great deal longer to retaliate.

A better way of standing up for yourself is to bring a camera or headcam, or bring a paddling policeman! Can all paddling policemen please make themselves known? I'm sure the good people of ukrgb will club together for some petrol money for one of you to come along on the Dee, Kent or Dart and tell these usual suspects that we're not in fact breaking any laws. (And I would just love it if one of them was done for assaulting a police officer!)
Good thinking there, that certainly hadn't occurred to me; would it be possible for us to take some kind of action against the fishing association which these men are affiliated with? Seeing as the fishermen are so fond of threatening to haul us to court, I'd love to see the culprits for this in the dock for assault with intent or whatever the men in wigs call it.
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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by garya »

Adrian Cooper wrote:
garya wrote:Some brave walker's got a few bruises many years ago on Kinder Scout
And a bit more besides as I understand. Several were jailed.
That is true but this was for violence aginst the gamekeepers rather than the tresspass its self.

http://kindertrespass.com/index.asp?ID=58

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_tresp ... nder_Scout

All the more reason to remain calm and in control of the situation to maintian the moral argument that what we want is fair and just treatment and access, and in order to effectivly counter those who seek to deny it. Any instigation of violence or premeditated retaliation would work aginst us.

It is a fine line to tread but there are many ways to quietly win your battle and get under the skin of those are arguing with. The best and simplest is just by your clam presence and just being there which will drive them even further over the edge.

Gary A
Last edited by garya on Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Actually, I've just checked out the guide for this river and it looks quite fun. The only bit that looks tricky is Force Falls which seems a bit steep or a trad canoe. What do you think? Would it go or would I have to walk?

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by Randy Fandango »

To be honest my answer wasn't entirely serious -- sorry for daring to be frivolous on such a serious matter! ;-)
On looking back my answer did look thoughtless.
That said, having gone down the 'call the police' route several times before now when dealing with being assaulted whilst kayaking, I've never found the police particularly interested in doing much more than ensure that whatever was going on (rock throwing, beer can throwing, shoe throwing -- I kid you not -- insult throwing, whatever) had stopped with clearly little intention of taking the matter any further.
The clear message in this to the perps was that it's fine to commit the assault in the first place as long as you stop when the police arrive!
In my darker moments I've wondered if they'd feel differently -- and perhaps discover that actions CAN have consequences -- if one of their victims went all Charlie Bronson on them instead of calling the somewhat ineffective police.
It's NOT what I do but it's crossed my mind and made me smile before now.....
As regards smacking someone in the mouth when being physically assaulted by them in non-paddling related situations -- I've discovered a couple of times in my adult life that it generally creates more problems than it solves but that it gives great momentary satisfaction.
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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by kieronymous »

Jim Pullen wrote:Last time we received foul-mouthed abuse on the Kent was on the S-bends as well - I wonder if it was the same group of fishermen?
This was the first and only time I've paddled the Kent. Sounds like we were fated to varying degrees of rock related problems on Saturday eh Jim!? (private joke...)

Having one of these chaps immediately and repeatedly scream "F___ OFF" at me as soon as he spotted me didn't do his case much good. If he'd waved me over and politely requested I walk around, I'd have thought about it. As he was evidently totally irrational, I elected to run the drop - during which he started casting at my face. I gave him a 'WTF?' look, questioned the regularity of his sex life to myself, and paddled on.

I'm fairly big, and not easily intimidated. However I've been less than keen to put back on this river. I just don't see it as being THAT worth it. Unfortunately, this is exactly how these guys want me to think. Is it unacceptably sensationalist to describe what they're doing as 'terrorism'..?

I don't advocate violent retaliation. I think the headcam footage is the best idea by far. So if anyone's got a headcam to lend me, I'll go run the river again!
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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by TechnoEngineer »

You could take the "Church of Scientology" approach and have people follow them around everywhere with cameras ;)

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by James Hartley »

Adrian Cooper wrote:Actually, I've just checked out the guide for this river and it looks quite fun. The only bit that looks tricky is Force Falls which seems a bit steep or a trad canoe. What do you think? Would it go or would I have to walk?
Force falls is fairly straight forward, point and shoot, and has been done in most forms of craft! And I do echo the sentiments that the Kent is a cracking river run !
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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by jmmoxon »

Very easy to reach from the M6 as well.

Must be some young lawyer out there looking for a case to make a name...

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by morsey »

James Hartley wrote:Force falls is fairly straight forward, point and shoot
Or carve river right to left, raise your left hand edge and commit to a full power stroke and style away. :-)

The act of getting out and verbally objecting to any abuse is sufficient response, most retarded rock throwing morons will stop at that point. Any retaliation of violence will likely alienate yourself from fellow paddlers, and unlike the yobbish Angling community, paddlers can expect their peers to publicly denounce those actions.


Go paddle, ignore the fools, inform the Police if necessary, direct any anger in the constructive form of words to the Fisheries, media and BCU.

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by DaveBland »

Behave impeccably and keep your GoPro working. Don't forget to ask them what side they'd like you to pass on. Paddle over to them if they persist in shouting – and calmly and ask them what their name is and what fishing club they belong to.
With proof of persistent shouting and aggressive behavior, the local angling clubs can be pressured into getting their members to behave.
With rock throwing, casting lines at you, this is a criminal offense that the Police HAVE to follow up if you have video evidence.
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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by Mark R »

Paul L - some may agree with your choice of response to attacks, some may not. But they'll all agree that in your last post you sounded like a prat.

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by Paul L »

Mark R wrote
Paul L - some may agree with your choice of response to attacks, some may not. But they'll all agree that in your last post you sounded like a prat.
Really I did`nt see that everyone agrees. What was my response exactly to attacks I mention nothing of violence only that you must stand up to bully`s my response was to someone calling other people names not how they do or don`t respond we must all do what we feel neccesary at the time.
And now you come on here telling me I sound like a prat .I have not insulted you so who are you to insult me ,seems like you think you are the Head teacher telling of naughty pupils.

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Re: River Kent - Rock throwing natives

Post by Chaucer »

Mark - QED
Paul - standing up to bullies does not have to have to mean fighting fire with fire. Ask yourself what a member of the non canoeing public would make of your posts. Then perhaps you might see why many people find your tone and argument offensive. There is moral high ground to be taken here, and a legally correct action but your attitude and advice would lose the high ground, and potentially land you in court rather than the original offenders. You have stooped to some petty name calling, and risk this whole thread being deleted.
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