Seat lowering.^

Places, technique, kayaks, safety, the sea...
Post Reply
User avatar
muzz
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Ross-Shire
Contact:

Seat lowering.^

Post by muzz » Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:45 am

My new Sirius has one of the plastic seats fitted, so I decided to lower it. It seems stable enough although I haven't been able to get out as the weather is still too bad.
The only think I'm wondering about is the new gap between the seat and the deck. You can see here what it looks like.
I though this would be OK as the seat is firmly pushed down with the locknuts but I'm wodering about lateral movement when I'm giving it some and pushing on the footpegs. I'm not sure whether fitting somthing in the gap or maybe between the back of the seat and the bulkhead would be a better idea ?
Get the full story on my BLOG

User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 7958
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:44 pm
Location: Scotland

Post by MikeB » Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:01 pm

That'll break something as soon as it's used. I'd guess there are some significant leverages there so somethign to stop it moving would seem to be a good idea. You've basically got the seat, with your weight, and all the forces from paddling, hanging on a couple of bolts.

Cutting the seat in half seems a bit drastic? I've had the glass seat pan in and out of the Quest umpteen times and although it's a bit of a fiddle, it comes out ok in the end.

Mike.

User avatar
Mike Marshall
Posts: 644
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:00 pm

P&H Plastic seat

Post by Mike Marshall » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:20 pm

I too have had problems with my plastic seat.
When rolling it twists out of the bolts and skews in the cockpit. Right hand bolt as I push hard on the footrest to roll.
Food for thought.

MikeM

User avatar
Mark R
Posts: 24087
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17 pm
Location: Dorset
Contact:

Post by Mark R » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:43 pm

Before everyone rushes to lower their seats, it's worth noting that there are pros and cons.

Yes, a lower seat will obviously increase stability for those who need the reassurance. However, a raised seat actually improves forward paddling efficiency and speed.

Horses for courses, and all that...
Mark Rainsley
FACEBOOK

andreadawn
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 8:34 pm

Post by andreadawn » Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:44 pm

I played this silly game with the seat in my Quest last year. I wish I'd known about the glass seat option when I ordered it. I suspect the boat I test paddled had the glass seat but it hadn't occured to me that they might have changed the design in the meantime.

I haven't got any piccies so I'll attempt to explain what I did. I did manage to wrestle the seat out in one piece but it was close to impossible.

Having cut away a lot of the foam padding underneath the seat, I put it back in hoping that would be sufficient, but unfortunately that left me with the hard plastic seat pan sat directly against the hull in places.

So having wrestled it out again, and put the (very comfortable) grey seat liner to one side, I cut out the entire bottom part of the plastic seat pan (ie the bit that my buttocks rest upon!) leaving the sides and back intact. At least this made it easier to get it back in as it was now very flexible. I then replaced the bottom part with a layer of karrimat (which sits flush against the hull), added a few extra strips to provide thigh support etc, then put the seat liner back in on top.

Like Muzz I was then left with a gap between the underside of the cockpit coaming and the flange on the top of the seat pan as well as a bit of extra space at the sides. Mine is padded out with bits of polyethelene foam cut slightly oversize, then forced into place with a blunt instrument. I can imagine the engineers here rolling their eyes now! As the bottom of my seat actually sits on the hull rather than being hung from the bolts, I'm assuming that any levering forces are not too great but I really must get around to making some sort of solid shims to fit into the gaps.

It's all very Heath Robinsonish but seems to work OK. The difference in handling is pretty dramatic as far as stability is concerned and the new seat is really comfortable. Whether it makes forward paddling less efficient, I don't know, but I'm seldom in enough of a hurry to worry about that myself.

Oh, and I accept no responsibility if you do the same and your boat disintigrates as a result!

Andrea.

Chris Bolton
Posts: 2260
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:33 pm
Location: NW England

Raised seat

Post by Chris Bolton » Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:36 am

MarkR wrote:However, a raised seat actually improves forward paddling efficiency and speed.
Does anyone have an engineering / physics / biomechanics explanation of why this works, or results of speed trials? Does it require or allow use of longer paddle?
I've often heard it said, but have not managed to convince myself that it's true. My attempt at working out leverage ratios, etc, came to the opposite result. It might be related to the need to push down on the blade at the catch, when it's at a steeper angle.

Chris

Bertie..
Posts: 1118
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:51 pm
Location: Mighty Weymuff
Contact:

Post by Bertie.. » Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:31 am

[quote="MarkR"] improves forward paddling efficiency and speed.

quote]

Mark, do you mean top speed, or your cruising speed - I'm assuming the latter?

User avatar
muzz
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Ross-Shire
Contact:

Post by muzz » Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:24 pm

Just to clarify. My seat is firmly pushed down to the bottom against the wedged in additional foam. I sat lower in my last 'wider' boat. I will test the cruising speed with my GPS at the next opportunity as I di manage to run some tests with the seat at it's original height last week. I will also report back on stability, although others seem to notice a difference.
I am also going to have some old sleeping mat shortly to wedge the sides of the seat and forward of seat as required for my legs.
Mike Marshall wrote:I too have had problems with my plastic seat.
When rolling it twists out of the bolts and skews in the cockpit. Right hand bolt as I push hard on the footrest to roll.
Food for thought.

MikeM
Oops edited already. Mike is this a lowered seat in your quest ?

Owen
Posts: 2106
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:42 pm
Location: Nr Stirling
Contact:

Post by Owen » Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:49 pm

andreadawn wrote:I played this silly game with the seat in my Quest last year. I wish I'd known about the glass seat option when I ordered it. I suspect the boat I test paddled had the glass seat but it hadn't occured to me that they might have changed the design in the meantime.

I haven't got any piccies so I'll attempt to explain what I did. I did manage to wrestle the seat out in one piece but it was close to impossible.

Having cut away a lot of the foam padding underneath the seat, I put it back in hoping that would be sufficient, but unfortunately that left me with the hard plastic seat pan sat directly against the hull in places.

So having wrestled it out again, and put the (very comfortable) grey seat liner to one side, I cut out the entire bottom part of the plastic seat pan (ie the bit that my buttocks rest upon!) leaving the sides and back intact. At least this made it easier to get it back in as it was now very flexible. I then replaced the bottom part with a layer of karrimat (which sits flush against the hull), added a few extra strips to provide thigh support etc, then put the seat liner back in on top.

Like Muzz I was then left with a gap between the underside of the cockpit coaming and the flange on the top of the seat pan as well as a bit of extra space at the sides. Mine is padded out with bits of polyethelene foam cut slightly oversize, then forced into place with a blunt instrument. I can imagine the engineers here rolling their eyes now! As the bottom of my seat actually sits on the hull rather than being hung from the bolts, I'm assuming that any levering forces are not too great but I really must get around to making some sort of solid shims to fit into the gaps.

It's all very Heath Robinsonish but seems to work OK. The difference in handling is pretty dramatic as far as stability is concerned and the new seat is really comfortable. Whether it makes forward paddling less efficient, I don't know, but I'm seldom in enough of a hurry to worry about that myself.

Oh, and I accept no responsibility if you do the same and your boat disintigrates as a result!

Andrea.


Go on tell me; how much did you pay for this boat?

andreadawn
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 8:34 pm

Post by andreadawn » Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:37 am

Owen wrote:Go on tell me; how much did you pay for this boat?
Whatever the typical price was a couple of years ago, Owen. About £1500 I think.

Having spent that much money I was deeply disappointed to find that it didn't seem to behave in the same way as the one I test paddled. A chance remark on here led me to believe that they probably had different height seats, something I didn't know about when I ordered mine. Unfortunately, simply buying the alternative seat and retrofitting it wasn't an option.

My admittedly poor DIY skills may well look crude if you take the seat liner out and look underneath, but most importantly for me, it works and gives me the boat I'd thought I'd bought in the first place, namely a stable, predictable expedition boat.

Andrea.

STEVE GILL
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:24 am
Location: SUFFOLK

SEAT LOWERING

Post by STEVE GILL » Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:24 pm

Hi Muzz, had same problem with a Quest.I found the solution,dump the plastic seat entirely.Having purchased a glassfibre seat from P@H i then made some aluminium L shaped brackets.These are then drilled to pick up the existing holes in the cockpit coaming and the fibreglass seat.The contact points on the brackets are then covered in thin rubber as also the interface between seat and hull.The gap between seat and hull was then blocked with high density foam to stop any lateral movement.Hope this is of help.

Owen
Posts: 2106
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:42 pm
Location: Nr Stirling
Contact:

Post by Owen » Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:25 pm

andreadawn wrote:
Owen wrote:Go on tell me; how much did you pay for this boat?
Whatever the typical price was a couple of years ago, Owen. About £1500 I think.

Having spent that much money I was deeply disappointed
Andrea.
Disappointed! I would think that you were; paying that much money and still having to faff around with it to get it right. Maybe we've let the manufactures get away with far to much for far to long.

User avatar
waltfos
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:54 pm
Location: Largs

Lowering seats

Post by waltfos » Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:27 pm

Muzz/ Andrea/Owen,

By lowereing the seat this far ie 25mm-32 mm or an inch to an inch and a half in old money.

Does the back part of the deck not cut in if rolling or lying towards the back deck?

The reason I ask is I have a Quest and have just taken the the comfy mat out. the response is better but dont know if the work involved and the results would be worth time and effort and every thing is a compromise.

I did call PnH and they said do not cut all the foam of the bottom of the seat and if you do put in ie Karrimat or similar as it would harm hull if the seat sat directly on the hull.

Spacers would be my choice using the existing holes and longer screws put a spacer [for andrea] a big long washer ie like a pipe between deck and seat washers either end so the seat sat on hull cusioned by carry mat and there would be no play between seat and deck. You would have to look at forward and ack motion so the screws did not crack cockpit ties. Yhis may not be a problem if seat is secured so any slip forward and rear is eliminated by the mat.

Not done this yet as I think the back of the cockpit may interfere with my back. I seam to remember this being a problem many years back with PnH and Valley

Keep shoogling

Walt[/quote]

User avatar
muzz
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Ross-Shire
Contact:

Post by muzz » Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:52 pm

Got paddling today. Noticed a difference in the boat straight away, a very noticeable difference. I was quite surprised. The improvement in initial stability seems to have made it easier to edge it too, after raisng a knee you can return to your initial position more easily. It's hard to explain, maybe it's to be expected but I never thought of it until it happened :-)

Speed doesn't seem to have changed with pretty much the same results as last week. I didn't do a sprint speed last week but today it was a steady 9.5kph, although I did see a 10.1 kph at one point.

Seat itself was stable but I still think I'll add blocks between the seat and deck just to be on the safe side.

User avatar
Mike Marshall
Posts: 644
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:00 pm

Quest Seat.

Post by Mike Marshall » Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:01 am

Muzz,
No I didnt lower the seat.
I was surprised when the seat twisted though.
Took it out (Hard work), looked at all the fixings, reset all the positions, Padded out with some 4mm sticky back foam between the deck and the seat, around where the bolts come through, (for the seat to bite on) and reinstalled it. Tightened the bolts up and next trip tried some deep water sculling and it twisted again :-(
It seems to have settled down a bit now, however, I havent paddled in the Quest for a month or two, so it may be something I need to deal with again?

MikeM

YvonneB
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:07 pm
Location: Bath

sticky back plastic

Post by YvonneB » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:30 am

Mike

Where did you get your sticky backed foam from?

User avatar
Mike Marshall
Posts: 644
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:00 pm

Sticky Back foam

Post by Mike Marshall » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:30 pm

Bonnie,
Sticky back 4mm foam from Brookbank Canoes.
You get a nice coil of it for about £5. When you open it its only 1/2 a metre!!!
Very useful for padding out things, or protecting the deck against spare paddles etc.

MikeM

YvonneB
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:07 pm
Location: Bath

Sticky

Post by YvonneB » Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:26 pm

Thanks Mike.

Post Reply