Paddle recommendations?

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Mac50L
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Re: Paddle recommendations?

Post by Mac50L » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:53 am

ian johnston wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:17 am
Owen says he's tried several GP's. Your default response was that it was (probably) due to poor paddling technique. You don't know Owen, and neither do I.
Ian
Owen says, "I've tried many Greenland paddles over the years and I've yet to find one that's not rubbish."

Firstly an apology about technique if the poor GPs were British made, it would definitely be the paddles and not the paddler. I've spent a lifetime fighting poorly made British equipment, mechanical and electronic.

Brilliant ideas at times, leading the world, but with poor execution of the design.

A couple of paddles -

A well known British kayak writer of some years ago who immigrated here gave a GP to a friend and a coracle paddle to another. The GP is nailed to the wall above the mantlepiece - not to be used. The coracle paddle we discussed and it was modified resulting in a halving of time over distance. Ah yes, British design and construction...

Incayak
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Re: Paddle recommendations?

Post by Incayak » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:47 am

Dude, you've got a serious chip on your shoulder

Mac50L
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Re: Paddle recommendations?

Post by Mac50L » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:10 am

Incayak wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:47 am
Dude, you've got a serious chip on your shoulder
Yes, probably all those Western Red Cedar wood chips.

Owen tends imply all GPs are rubbish, tends to I said. He says, "I've tried many Greenland paddles over the years and I've yet to find one that's not rubbish."

No reason why those he has tried are rubbish. Home made ones? Commercially made? Why rubbish? What is actually wrong with them?

So one is left with questions, are they actually rubbish. In what way are they rubbish? Or is it the way they are being used? How many is many?

What is one to make of his statement?

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PeterG
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Re: Paddle recommendations?

Post by PeterG » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:56 pm

re greenland paddles, it depends if you are a meat cleaver type of guy or prefer a sharp knife to carve fine slices of water. Even I resort to the cleaver if I have to shovel water to stay on that first wave in a race. Expedition touring my muscles and tendons would rather be gently cutting slices day after day.

Coming back to the original question. Epic relaxed touring are hard to beat for all round performance and long life. Do cranks give any advantage over holding the shaft gently Epic don't think so? Surf wax can help the hands stick to the loom.

Celtic/Lendal 4 parts with the allen key padlock are very very practical and you can ring the changes. Carbon I find stiff and lacking feel, but they are light and strong, the glass blades seem reasonably light and medium stiff, the yellow SFs cheap for everyday work. With an old Nordcapp N12 blade you have a useful snow shovel in case of bad weather on the way to the get-in.

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Jim
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Re: Paddle recommendations?

Post by Jim » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:33 pm

ian johnston wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:12 am
Mac50L wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:58 pm

Poor paddling technique (probably)?
Regardless of the pros and cons of GP versus Euro (yawn), that is an incredibly arrogant statement......
It is arrogant, but that doesn't make it wrong, although there are perspectives to consider.

After 25+ years of paddling I am just now working on learning to paddle with what a perfectionist would call good technique, very few of the people I have paddled recreationally with over the years have used such a technique. Therefore I reckon an unknown paddler is more than 50% likely to have 'poor' technique by a perfectionists definition, so (probably) is not all that unreasonable a qualifier, especially since it acknowedges that it might not be the reason.

But is GP technique and the perfectionists proper technique the same? Both use a greater degree of trunk rotation than recreational paddlers normally tend to use, in that element they are quite similar, but, and I haven't really used GPs so I'm going by descriptions I've read, GPs tend to be held at a much lower angle than 'euro' paddles or wings which must make a significant difference in the all important catch phase of the stroke?

I actually wonder if someone with good (we assume perfection is not quite attainable) high angle technique using wing or 'euro' paddles, who clearly has the rotational capacity required for GPs, would actually be able to get on with them, or whether the difference in feel from the low angle catch would be incredibly offputting and lead to a perspective that the paddles don't really work...

The truth is, as already pointed out and repeated in the thread, that everyone develops a slightly different paddling style with different deviations from the theoretical perfect stroke for any number of different reasons, and actually what a perfectionist may consider as 'poor' technique, is optimum for someone else, and that what the perfectionist considers good for them, is simply not achievable by a large number of paddlers, particularly as most of us do not have the time to spend working on really drilling their stroke to perfection, and others lack the flexibility to paddle the perfectionists way.

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Re: Paddle recommendations?

Post by Jim » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:52 pm

I have been keeping out of the what paddle debate because I am in the middle of relearning my technique and may very soon change my opinions on what I like or don't like, however:

Lendal (Celtic) Kinetic Touring (in carbon composite) on modified crank shaft is still my touring paddle of choice. Lendal latterly added different sizes (original touring was smaller than Nordkapp, maybe about Archipelago sized, and I think equates to the medium in latter sizes) - I am not entirely sure which sizes Celtic are offering. I like a G1F shaft, but again I'm not sure Celtic offer the same choices, probably just carbon or glass - I suspect you will be happier with a glass shaft, although I would say to try both especially if you are reducing blade area compared to what you are used to - I find glass shafts a little soggy, they flex under pressure, but don't spring back, carbon flexes a bit less, but adds a kick at the end of the stroke as it snaps back as the pressure eases.

The problem I have right now (and I can resolve it with some training trips) is that I can't remember whether I have been using my touring paddle for sea kayak racing recently, or if I switched to one of my river or slalom paddles instead (much bigger blades, shorter shafts)? Never mind, I'll probably use my wings for racing this year since I'll be used to them by then :)

Crank vs straight - I have been using cranks for over 15 years now and really struggle with straights, my right wrist gets sore fairly quickly. I have just put my polo blades on a cranked shaft (against all advice from others in the polo community) because the straight shaft was killing me in training (OK in matches, we do long training sessions), but the wings really need a straight shaft so that is something I am going to have to work on with the wings. I have noticed from the few sessions with them so far that my left hand migrates along the shaft - with a cranked shaft it doesn't the crank keeps it in place, I will probably build up a ridge of tape to stop it sliding along...

Mac50L
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Re: Paddle recommendations?

Post by Mac50L » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:58 pm

Jim wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:33 pm
I'm going by descriptions I've read, GPs tend to be held at a much lower angle than 'euro' paddles or wings which must make a significant difference in the all important catch phase of the stroke?
Low angle while waiting for others to catch up.
High angle when going somewhere. Look at YouTubes of good paddlers racing with a GP in Greenland. Paddle near vertical and yes, my angle depends on what I'm doing, waiting or moving.

Yes, body rotation, straight(ish) arms during the power part of the stroke.

Hands and wrists - a complain from someone when she went to using a GP, it refused to raise blisters. With a rectangular shaft the pulling hand, the fingers (second joint) are on the corner of the rectangle. The pushing hand, the base of the fingers against the flat. The thumbs - there to stop the paddle falling on the deck.

Basically open unstressed hands, a simplistic description but basically what is happening.

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Re: Paddle recommendations?

Post by adventureagent » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:00 pm

Jim wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:33 pm
ian johnston wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:12 am
Mac50L wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:58 pm

Poor paddling technique (probably)?
Regardless of the pros and cons of GP versus Euro (yawn), that is an incredibly arrogant statement......
It is arrogant, but that doesn't make it wrong, although there are perspectives to consider.

After 25+ years of paddling I am just now working on learning to paddle with what a perfectionist would call good technique, very few of the people I have paddled recreationally with over the years have used such a technique. Therefore I reckon an unknown paddler is more than 50% likely to have 'poor' technique by a perfectionists definition, so (probably) is not all that unreasonable a qualifier, especially since it acknowedges that it might not be the reason.

But is GP technique and the perfectionists proper technique the same? Both use a greater degree of trunk rotation than recreational paddlers normally tend to use, in that element they are quite similar, but, and I haven't really used GPs so I'm going by descriptions I've read, GPs tend to be held at a much lower angle than 'euro' paddles or wings which must make a significant difference in the all important catch phase of the stroke?

I actually wonder if someone with good (we assume perfection is not quite attainable) high angle technique using wing or 'euro' paddles, who clearly has the rotational capacity required for GPs, would actually be able to get on with them, or whether the difference in feel from the low angle catch would be incredibly offputting and lead to a perspective that the paddles don't really work...

The truth is, as already pointed out and repeated in the thread, that everyone develops a slightly different paddling style with different deviations from the theoretical perfect stroke for any number of different reasons, and actually what a perfectionist may consider as 'poor' technique, is optimum for someone else, and that what the perfectionist considers good for them, is simply not achievable by a large number of paddlers, particularly as most of us do not have the time to spend working on really drilling their stroke to perfection, and others lack the flexibility to paddle the perfectionists way.

For me, it's nearly 50 years, and I'm still learning. I had no troubles in my trial of a gp.
CELEBRATE LIFE: PADDLE by ALL MEANS !

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