Correlite X Scorpio HV - dissenting view to OP report

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missing
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Correlite X Scorpio HV - dissenting view to OP report

Post by missing » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:49 pm

Scorpio HV Correlite X with Scudder
Paddler 2m tall, Weight 110kg (yes I need to loose weight)

Part 1 (the last report I wrote got lost because the system logged me out)

In this months Ocean Paddler (June 2017), Douglas Wilcox has written a very positive review about this boat. I dissent on a number of points. I feel this boat is a LEMON and while most paddlers would rate this boat as 5 star, I would rate it as 2 star.

I know and am aware that many paddlers would feel that with the Correlite X build this boat is the best thing since the invention of sliced bread. As an owner of this boat nothing could be further from the truth, though this is a personal experience and for the vast majority of paddlers this will be an execellent boat and that is for all intensive purpose faultless.

There is no doubt that a lot of thought has gone into the design of this boat.

Key point why I feel this boat is a lemon:
Correlite X is advertised as being as strong as plastic boats but it is lighter and very stiff
It is made of a trilaminate construction, so if you mistime a tidal surge in a rock garden the hull will deform underneath you.
If you mistime a rock hop the plastic is very soft and deep gouges will occur on the hull

The cockpit is too short. The cockpit in a Tiderace Xplore X and an NDK Romany Excel is longer. If the HV is meant for a big paddler why did they not take this fact into account. Big does not always mean obease big can also mean very long in the legs.

The hatches are not watertight

The build quality is poor

(End of Part 1 in case the system logs me out)

missing
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Correlite X Scorpio HV - Dissenting view to OP report - Part 2

Post by missing » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:12 pm

Dissenting review to OP report on HV Correlite X Scorpio with Scudder - Part 2.

I have rated this boat as a 2 star and not 5 star because it has exhibited a number of shortcomings for me as a relatively new owner of this boat. I am aware most paddlers will rate this boat as a 5 star build and might conclude that I am too rough with my equipment.

There is no doubt that the handling of this boat in rough water is excellent and the boat is very manoeuvrable. Just be careful that you dont graze rocks or mistime a tidal surge in a rockgarden.

Under sail outside Plymouth Breakwater with a large swell and force 4-5 downwind with a 1m Flat Earth Sail I found this boat to be staggerly good fun and stable. I know Douglas Wilcox among others would advocate that the smaller sail is more appropriate and I would argue that a MV Scorpio as opposed to a HV Scorpio would be more appropriate for Douglas to paddle sail. But as I am a bigger and heavier paddler I would suggest that a 1m sail is more apppropriate for my use.

Correlite X has been touted as the magic plastic boat that has all the benefits of a composite boat but has a more robust hull so will translate into more paddling time and less time having to think about gel coat repairs etc. Nothing IMHO could be further from the truth. I would suggest that a composite boat is far more robust than the Correlite X Scorpio. A composite boat is user repairable, the Correlite X is not, it must go back to P&H for a chargeable repair regardless if in Warranty. It is a trilaminate construction so if you mistime a tidal surge in a rock garden the hull will deform underneath you. If you mistime a gap in a rock garden the inner skin will deform leaving a permanent gough and indent in the hull. Due to a false believe in the robustness of this boat, perhaps lack of skill I mistimed a gap in a rockgarden during a tidal surge and managed to crack the internal skin of this boat fortunately the outer skin held. While the boat was only 6 months old, this was a chargeable repair, as putting a boat in a rock garden is at your own risk and anyway if you paddle in a normal environment without rocks in sight then the hull will not be damaged.

End of Part 2

missing
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Correlite X - Scorpio HV - Dissenting view to OP - Part 3

Post by missing » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:34 pm

For most paddlers this boat shall be an excellent purchase I am sure. Perhaps I have just been very unlucky and also my size works against me in terms of getting boats to fit. It may also be that the boat I bought was badly finished in the factory and was really a second yet I paid full price for it.

I am 2m tall so having a long cockpit is essential if I am to get my legs out of the cockpit while the boat is afloat. This is important especially if doing a rocky landing or landing on a beach with dumping surf.

In the past I had a Tiderace Xplore X which I wrecked in big surf as a guinea pig during a 5 star assessment. But then that is another story. The Tiderace Xplore X has an extra long cockpit compared to the other boats in the Tiderace range to accommodate large and tall paddlers, it is I suppose the HV equivalent of the Scorpio which in fact in this regard the Scorpio has a fundamental design/ideological flaw. The NDK Romany has many iterations like the Tiderace range, the EXCEL being their equivalent of a HV boat and yes the cockpit length in the Excel is longer than the Scorpio. One wonders why P&H made this design flaw if they were designing a boat for the larger paddler. There is no doubt that there is plenty of space for large feet and when I sit in the boat I cannot reach the bulkhead, so this boat has loads of space, but for some reason in the design stage while they wanted to design a HV version they did not think of large and tall paddlers needs. The review in Ocean Paddler has some very short people and relatively light paddlers in the test, hardly good testers for a HV boat.

When I took delivery of my boat I noted that the seat was not aligned and crooked. I measured the port and starboard sides (where the holes were drilled into the deck to attach the seat) and noted that there was an appropriate 10mm difference. When I did manage to align the seat correctly I also noted that P&H were very miserly in the amount of webbing they provided for the backrest meaning that I could not fasten the backrest, so I now have it loose in my boat.

I find that when I am afloat I have to raise my COG (bottom) out of the seat, pull back my leg and foot to pull it out of the cockpit while trying to balance the boat in a swell which is rather interesting. But then again this is because I am a very large paddler, and most paddler who buy this boat will be shorter than me and will find this an excellent boat and not a limiting factor.

End of part 3

missing
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Correlite X - Scorpio HV - Dissenting View to OP report - Part 4

Post by missing » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:59 pm

It is possible that when I took delivery of my Scorpio that it was a seconds boat and that other boats that come from the factory are of an exceptionally high quality.

Unlike the report in Ocean Paddler, where it was mentioned that the hatches are dry, this is not the case with my boat. The day hatch leaks copiously while the other hatches have been noted to leak. When I queried this point with my dealer they stated that nearly all plastic boats have leaking hatches, it is only with a composite boat that one can be assured of dry hatches.

I found the support from P&H to be woefully poor. I emailed them asking them what sort of repair kit would they suggest for the Correlite X construction - Total Radio Silence (I have received no reply from them).

I looked at their technical support pages in regard to how to fit a Flat Earth Sail, there was no guidance posted in this section. I would have thought that P&H could have provided a link to Douglas Wilcox's page on how to install the sail. While I did look at the page I found it to be very verbose which was a massive mistake on my part. I just wanted a quick HOWTO guide. Unfortunately, I bought the Karitech's deck fitting kit which in light of experience shows that this kit should be not be sold in its current form as it is fundamentally flawed. If anyone wants to fit a Flat Earth sail to a kayak regardless of the make, IMHO avoid Karitech's deck fitting kit. Some of my reasons are these. The mast comes with long side shrouds(thin rope) which under strain slip through the deck cleans provided and sets one up for a collapsed mast. Also no back stay is suggested so that when one throws up the mast it usually ends up flat in the water over the bow. A back stay avoids this issue and also having the side stays alingned with the mast means that they can stay under tension (using snap shackles) to attach to the boat. So yes, its possible that I am not that bright and I should follow the well worn phrase of IT technicians that if in doubt "read the F***** manual". There is no doubt in my mind now that Douglas Wilcox's webpage on setting up the Flat Earth sail is the Bible!

I would like to state that this is just my report of the boat. The review for this boat have been exceptional and there is no doubt that the Scorpio is an excellent boat. It is just that for my specifications and type of use the boat fails miserably.

End

Hamish
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Re: Correlite X Scorpio HV - dissenting view to OP report

Post by Hamish » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:44 pm

Thanks for posting your experiences. I had been looking at Scorpios as a future replacement for my ageing Quest. A friend paddles an original Scorpio and goes very well in it.

I have found, however, that as my Quest gets older I treat it with less and less care; but it doesn't seem as delicate as I had thought it would be. It is covered in cracks from when it fell off my roof rack but it doesn't seem to get much worse despite more and more rocky landings and general rockhopping. I am coming to the conclusion that I may go for another composite boat.

I would still like to try a Scorpio HV though to see how it paddles. Does anyone have any more info about how the Corelite X is standing up to abuse?

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Re: Correlite X Scorpio HV - dissenting view to OP report

Post by Mac50L » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:54 am

I see Kent Canoes state "the revolutionary Skudder system". What is revolutionary about it as it has been in use for about 3 decades (Germany and Australia) and about the mid 1990s a version was fitted to a couple of kayaks here in New Zealand.

"moulded-in inserts to take a kayak sail mast foot" yet you still had mast fitting problems?

"no other polyethylene sea kayak on the market is as fully featured and ready for adventure as this." - anyone checked out kayaks built in other countries? Without leaking hatches and delamination problems.

The damage problems and weight make wood sound far better, stronger and lighter - if you have the time to build.

missing
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Re: Correlite X Scorpio HV - dissenting view to OP report

Post by missing » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:03 pm

How badly the Correlite X takes abuse will be dependent to a large extent upon the weight of the Paddler.

Considering Newtons Laws of Motion

It will take less force to stop a lighter paddler 85-75kg than a paddler Weighting 110kg coming against an obstruction, accounting for the force acelleration X mass of the paddler.

So if you hit a rock in a rock garden you are likely to do more damage than a lighter paddler in a similar situation.

The other point also to bear in mind is this, Did P&H take into account Newtons Laws of Motion when they designed the HV version of this boat. So the question I would have- is the construction of the Correlite X heavier and more Robust in the HV version compared to the MV version, taking consideration of this fact.

It may be that while this is a very stable boat it might not be intended for Advanced paddlers, but for intermediate to beginner paddlers who will be paddling in less challenging waters.

missing
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Re: Correlite X Scorpio HV - dissenting view to OP report

Post by missing » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:04 pm

How badly the Correlite X takes abuse will be dependent to a large extent upon the weight of the Paddler.

Considering Newtons Laws of Motion

It will take less force to stop a lighter paddler 85-75kg than a paddler Weighting 110kg coming against an obstruction, accounting for the force acelleration X mass of the paddler.

So if you hit a rock in a rock garden you are likely to do more damage than a lighter paddler in a similar situation.

The other point also to bear in mind is this, Did P&H take into account Newtons Laws of Motion when they designed the HV version of this boat. So the question I would have- is the construction of the Correlite X heavier and more Robust in the HV version compared to the MV version, taking consideration of this fact.

It may be that while this is a very stable boat it might not be intended for Advanced paddlers, but for intermediate to beginner paddlers who will be paddling in less challenging waters.

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Re: Correlite X - Scorpio HV - Dissenting view to OP - Part 3

Post by Mac50L » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:24 am

missing wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:34 pm
When I took delivery of my boat I noted that the seat was not aligned and crooked. I measured the port and starboard sides (where the holes were drilled into the deck to attach the seat) and noted that there was an appropriate 10mm difference.
How is it possible to get that so inaccurate? If you are going to make more than two of anything, the first thing you do is make a jig - accurately. If they can't drill holes in the right place how can anyone expect the rest of it to be of any quality?

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Re: Correlite X - Scorpio HV - Dissenting view to OP - Part 3

Post by Allan Olesen » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:01 am

Mac50L wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:24 am
missing wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:34 pm
When I took delivery of my boat I noted that the seat was not aligned and crooked. I measured the port and starboard sides (where the holes were drilled into the deck to attach the seat) and noted that there was an appropriate 10mm difference.
How is it possible to get that so inaccurate? If you are going to make more than two of anything, the first thing you do is make a jig - accurately. If they can't drill holes in the right place how can anyone expect the rest of it to be of any quality?
In one of my composite kayaks (not a P&H), the cockpit coaming broke after 3 weeks and was replaced at the factory. The seat is bolted to a flange which is part of the cockpit coaming. When I recently had to remove the seat, I found two sets of bolt holes in the seat - apparently one set to fit the old coaming and one set to fit the new coaming.

So it seems that things are not so perfectly aligned and alike as we would wish.

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Correlite X Scorpio HV - dissenting view to OP report

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:47 pm

Hello Missing and thank you for taking the trouble to post your experience of the Scorpio HV. Fortunately forums like this one allow everyone to contribute to the body of knowledge about a particular product. I do appreciate and respect that your experience of the boat was different from that of myself and my fellow testers. However, I stand by our findings in the OP article. I have been testing kayaking gear for magazines for nearly 15 years and, as a retired medical scientist, I try to be unbiased, objective and factual in the tests. Most sporting goods tests are based on a very short test (one test of a P&H Hammer was an afternoon in a reservoir!) but mine have always been long term tests. This particular boat was paddled for 340km by me, 240km by David and a total of 950km by all testers. I think we got a pretty good feel for it over that time.

First of all Corelite X is intended to be a lighter stiffer RM construction for touring sea kayaks and that is how the Scorpio HV test was performed. If you are above average height and weight and want to go rockhopping a Hammer or Delphin in surf spec would both be much more robust and suitable as they are both of heavy duty single skin construction.

I am sorry that you found the Scorpio HV too small after buying it. You suggest the test team were too small to properly review the boat. Three of the testers were taller than 90% of adult British males in other words right in the target range for this boat. In the UK 99.6% of adult males are less than 1.95m tall. At 2.00m tall, probably less than 1/1000 people will be taller than you, so you are a very niche market. Given that P&H make three Scorpios to fit most of the paddling population, a Scorpio tailored to your size would have a very small market and would be commercially inviable. The Scorpio HV is very roughly designed for and marketed at the top third of the normal distribution curve for height which is about 1.79m to 191cm. You are clearly well out with that range. Several of my very tall friends paddle Tiderace Explore Xs because they like paddling them and especially like the very long cockpits. But a cockpit of that size is usually only found on composite boats. RM boats tend to have shorter cockpits to maintain longitudinal stiffness. Another reason that very long cockpits are not that common is that most tall paddlers would not be able to reach forward to things mounted on the foredeck or in the forward day hatch in a very long cockpit suitable for extremely tall people such as yourself.

P&H publish their cockpit length as do Tiderace. The composite Explore X has a cockpit 9cm longer than the Scorpio HV and this should have been a factor in your buying decision. You are by your own admission overweight. Coincidentally you have the same body mass index as I did before I lost weight and so we were, proportionately to our height, the same percentage overweight. Having lost 10kg during the test I can assure you that if you lose weight you will find it much easier to get in and out of any kayak despite your height. David who is a lean 1.84m tall, is 75 years old and has arthritis of the spine, hips and knees but had no trouble getting his legs out and putting them on the foredeck of the Scorpio HV in the middle of the Corryvreckan with his sail up.

I am not a P&H sycophant. In previous tests I have highlighted the failures of the Mk1 rope skeg slider, corrosion of previous seat buckles, seats that were mounted too high, deformation of previous seat backs causing discomfort, moulding issues in early Scorpios, leaking hatches in previous Scorpios (fixed by swapping the lightweight click on hatch covers for all rubber ones). To their credit P&H have addressed all these issues.

With regard to sails, thank you for your kind comments about my rigging tips. I have a different way of rigging to Karitek who have chosen a system designed to have a bit of give to prevent beginners bending masts or breaking decks. Karitek know that many people prefer a stiffer system and that is why they will sell the mast/sail separately from the rigging kit. If you buy a sail from P&H they supply a different rigging kit similar to the one I use. P&H also have a very full, illustrated sail fitting manual which is available if you phone them.

The 1.0 Flat Earth sail is not designed to be a big person's sail. It is cut differently from the 0.8 sail. It is designed for lighter, less gusty winds and is fuller and has less twist in the leach and head which mean that the forces on the rig/deck will be greater in stronger, gusty winds.

In conclusion I think that many of your points are fair, reflecting your wished usage of the kayak. However, average large paddlers should not be put off the Scorpio HV by your comments because at 2.00m tall you are too big for this boat. I suspect you may also have less choice of clothes, cars and beds. This of course needs to be traded against the advantages of stature such being more likely to be promoted and earn more than your shorter friends not to mention being able to see over crowds and being able to reach higher without falling off a ladder as I recently did trying to get something off the top shelf in the kitchen cupboard!

With best wishes and good luck in your quest for a perfect boat,
Douglas

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Re: Correlite X Scorpio HV - dissenting view to OP report

Post by adventureagent » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:23 am

What a marvelous exchange. A most enjoyable read.
CELEBRATE LIFE: PADDLE by ALL MEANS !

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Mat @ Pyranha
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Re: Correlite X Scorpio HV - dissenting view to OP report

Post by Mat @ Pyranha » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:12 pm

Thanks for the thoughts, Missing.

I'm sorry to hear you received no response to your email; we try our best to answer all emails as completely and as quickly as possible, and are always happy to be contacted by phone (either 01928 716666 or 0115 9320155) or via a dealer (find your nearest, here: http://www.phseakayaks.com/dealers.php). If you can let me know the email address you contacted us from, and where you sent it to, we can try and trace your email and ascertain why it wasn't received or answered.

Can I ask if you had the opportunity to demo the kayak before you made the purchase? I can't help but feel that several of the issues you've experienced are readily avoidable, and demoing would have helped you make a better choice of outfitting options (or even another kayak altogether) for yourself.

Firstly, we offer a custom footrest position option, with the footrests fitted further down the kayak and the forward bulkhead even able to be moved to accommodate this if necessary.

I am also 110kg, and have paddled the kayak several times with no issue and in plenty of comfort. I'm 1.85m myself, so a little off your impressive height, yet one of my colleagues is much closer at 1.93m in height, with size 11 feet, and a hip-to-sole measurement of 1.1m, and found the same comfort; we even had him wearing a set of size 13 Five10 Canyoneers recently, sat on the front edge of the seat, with the footrests on the furthest setting (for their standard, factory default location), and he had plenty of foot room (as you have noted that the Scorpio MKII HV does); by any standard, the Scorpio MKII HV is a BIG sea kayak, and despite the fact, as you note, that you are significantly taller than the average, it should be more than suitable for yourself.

Please also note that Douglas' test published in OP was carried out AFTER production had begun, and that we tested the size of the Scorpio MKII HV thoroughly for the intended paddler size range (including myself and my colleague) during the design phase of the kayak.

I'm confused by what you claim to be issues with CoreLite X; we do indeed claim it to be lighter, stronger, and significantly stiffer than standard CoreLite, which it very much is... the potential for it to be scratched by sharp rocks, or to bend in the event of an impact, are rather fundamental and unavoidable properties of most plastics however, and indeed the ability of plastic to flex in an impact rather than remain stiff and therefore crack, is in actual fact a reason why plastic boats in general have greater durability than standard composites.

The stiffness we refer to is a benefit to the performance of the boat, and this has been verified by the vast majority of paddlers who have paddled a boat of this construction, with the most noticeable instances being the lack of flex felt under the heels when going over short, choppy waves, and the lack of 'bounce' in the kayak when carrying between two. In addition, CoreLite X is as repairable as composite would be for an end user, but you are correct that a user could send the boat back to us for repair if they wish (as they could with a composite); by your own admission, the damage to your boat was down to an accepted risk taken by yourself, and this surely cannot be something you hold us responsible for, especially as we have made no claim that CoreLite X is invulnerable to damage.

The cockpit of the Scorpio MKII HV is rather large for a sea kayak; in fact, it is the same dimensions as some of our largest creek boats, where getting out of the kayak quickly in the event of a pin is essential. Neither myself or my taller colleague had no issues getting in to or out of the kayak, and I am well known amongst my paddling friends for being akin to bambi on ice when trying to mount or dismount any sort of craft. I'm confused as to why you chose the Scorpio MKII HV rather than the other two models you mention, if the need for an exceptionally large cockpit size was a decisive factor for yourself? The measurements of the Scorpio MKII HV cockpit are readily available on our website and those of our dealers.

If you had any issue with the watertightness of the hatches, we'd be happy to assess this under warranty.

I'm sorry to hear about the misaligned seat; of course, we will make sure to follow this through to production and ensure preventative measures are taken. The webbing strap should be more than long enough, regardless of where the seat is positioned, so I'd like to invite you to get in touch with myself directly on 01928 778888 so we can get to the bottom of why it seems to be too short after you have repositioned the seat; if necessary, I can have a replacement length of webbing sent out.

I'm also more than happy to provide you with a set of our sail fitting instructions, however it isn't something which is possible to summarise in a short, 'howto' style guide, as there is a lot of personal preference and other factors involved, and personally I feel the art of learning to rig the sail in different manners for varying situations and environments is part of the joy; I'm more than happy to spend some time on the phone with yourself discussing this and providing tips.

To quickly address points from other commenters:

- There are several sets of holes in the seat pillars to allow fore-aft adjustment of the seat.
- Hole positions are marked in the mould, and this transfers to the kayak shell during moulding to ensure we drill EXACTLY the right location - all outfitting parts are either injection moulded, or have their holes drilled by CNC machine, which additionally ensures the hole locations are exact.
- We do indeed tailor shell thicknesses for larger models which carry more load; we've been making kayaks a long time!


You are clearly a man of exceptionally high standards, and as such I'm very happy to see a good number of positive comments regarding the Scorpio MKII HV in your posts, but nonetheless I am sorry that you feel disappointed, however I do feel we can turn some of the items you feel to be negative points into positives.

Kind Regards,
Mathew
Pyranha/P&H Kayaks
Current Boats: Machno L, Delphin 155 MKII CLX

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Re: Correlite X Scorpio HV - dissenting view to OP report

Post by jamesl2play » Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:35 pm

Has anyone had experience of oil canning in the mk2 Scorpio ?
I recently assisting a friend in putting four of these into store and they were all badly oil canned under the cockpit area.
Also, many of the hatches did not appear to be watertight. Just wondering if any other paddlers had any experience of this.

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asmar
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Re: Correlite X Scorpio HV - dissenting view to OP report

Post by asmar » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:20 pm

I've got 6 of them and they all leak. I believe they leak from the skeg box (where the mould is for the skudder) but didn't had the time to check properly yet.

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Correlite X Scorpio HV - dissenting view to OP report

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:24 am

Hi James I have had 3 Scorpio Mk2s on long term test over the last three seasons. None have suffered oil canning but a friend's Mk2 MV in Corelite got really badly oil canned on one of the hot days in August. He had suffered bad sunburn and heatstroke on a longish paddle and bailed out. He got a lift home on a different car with no J bars on the rack, only windsurf pads. They strapped it hull down and it then it sat in the sun for several hours outside the local A&E dept while he was treated.

We got most of the dents out by warming with a hair drier and pushing back into shape. His back hatch was leaking after rolling but we fixed it by making sure the oval was exactly aligned and using plenty of silicone spray.

Asmar that is not good. I have tested a lot of poly boats from a variety of companies and most have leaked to an extent on rolling/rescue practice but only a few were bad. On the three Scorpio Mk 2s that I have had, none were leaking through the skeg tube though. Two were completely dry even after rolling but one leaked really badly through the lightweight rear hatch cover just paddling (in rough water). That one was fixed by swapping for a rubber cover.

Douglas

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