Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

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seawolf856
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:53 am

First dry run last night. Rigged up the skin fitting on outside of cockpit for test purposes and just connected the battery straight to the pump. Fitted the integral NRV and pushed hose on.
I filled the cockpit using a hose pipe and bingo!, the pump kicked in BUT no water came out of the pipe!!!
I removed the inner rubber sleeve part of the Whale NRV, connected everything back up and tried again, this time it worked perfectly.
I then replaced the NRV sleeve but removed the outlet pipe, again it worked perfectly.
So I'm thinking it must be the combination of the NRV and the tight bend stopping the water flow, but the flow was very powerful so I flushed the horrible little rubber bit of the NRV using my hose pipe and it seemed to work ok, so I replaced it, connected the hose and tried again - this time everything worked perfectly. However, my confidence in the Whale NRV is now rock bottom.

Any suggestions for an alternative (and proven) 19mm NRV? Anybody from Whale reading this? how reliable are these rubber sleeve type valves? I know Douglas has done away with the NRV's and I can see why, but I don't want to rely on a plug on a string to stop my boat flooding and as I am going fully automatic, I would need to be sure the plug would be blown out when the pump switched on, which is unlikely.

I have some photos but I don't know how to attach them or include with the post yet, so I'll investigate this and try again soon.
I'm going to drill the deck tonight and go for the full install, stay tuned.

sleepyfolk
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:17 am

I reckon you just need to change your discharge pipe so it has a smooth outflow and no sharp kink, I tried mine with and without the NRV because everyone said it makes a lot of difference to the flow rate but can't say that I noticed much difference at all

seawolf856
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:47 pm

Hi sleepyfolk, you are of course right a nice straight pipe run would cure all ills. I also tried with and without the NRV and once I got it working I agree with you that I don't think it made much difference. As my pipe run is very short and rises only about 200mm in total, I think I'm going to be OK with the NRV.
So did you stick with the crappy little three flap rubber NRV? I've now got the in line version so I've got yet another option to try.
I've sent the administrator a message to see if I can get permission to post photos.

sleepyfolk
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:05 pm

I've kept the flappy whale one in, I originally fitted a discharge in the hatch which had a hinged flap on it as an additional keeping the water out device, you can see it on the photo earlier in the thread.
Since then I've decided to make some more room in my rear hatch and I think I'll put a standard discharge outlet without a flap on, I'm not usually out in a force 6 so I decided the whale NRV would be good enough

Allan Olesen
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Allan Olesen » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:41 pm

seawolf856 wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:53 am
So I'm thinking it must be the combination of the NRV and the tight bend stopping the water flow
Regarding the tight bend:

Option #1:
My local marine store sells a clear, thin-walled hose with a steel spiral "embedded" in the hose wall. The purpose of the steel spiral is to keep the hose open if you bend it sharply.

Option #2:
Take your hose out of the boat. Stuff it with something bendable and uncompressable. Bend it sharply and make a fixture of some sort to keep the bend. Put the hose in boiling water (you may want to test a short piece first), let it heat up, take it out of the water and let it cool down for a long time. Remove the stuffing and the fixture.

I used option #2 for my pump - but mostly because I bought the wrong hose. Doing it again, I would go for option #1.

kayakbiker
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by kayakbiker » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:31 am

Its great to see so much interest in fitting electric pumps on this thread. I think the main benefit of them is safety but for personally I found mine to be really helpful when learning to roll
For me learning to roll was made so much easier because i could empty the cockpit without going to the side or have to rely on being rescued everytime or to pump out manually that lets face it gets tiring after 2 or 3 times. Its all good and well if your learning to roll if you can get pool access, but not all of us have the luxury. Thankfully I can now roll so dont use my bilge pump quite as much. I now use an air switch located on my front deck but still have a flexi hose that i just throw out the side of my spraydeck when required.
I have now also made a 12v waterproof hand size pump that i use as a backup when out on the sea. It looks a bit rough and ready but its functional and is reliable. I think another main benefit is I can pass it to anyone in trouble and they could empty their kayak in seconds rather than minutes especially if cold and exhausted. Cost just over £20 so not much more than a cheap manual hand pump to put together. Some might see it as a novelty but for me its fast,efficient and a possible life saver. Cheers

seawolf856
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:41 pm

Hi kayakbiker,
Yes I agree, it has been fantastic to see so much interest in this thread, it is filled with so much positive feedback, brilliant ideas and encouragement. It has kept me sane through what at times has been a frustrating project. Thanks for your contributions. I drilled the hole in the deck last night!!! it was a terrifying moment but it is done now and I'm fully committed. Next stage is the wiring through the bulkhead to the day hatch.
Your hand held 12v pump sounds like a stroke of genius to me, what a great idea. Myself and a friend of mine have spent a lot of our recent paddling time pondering why, in this high tech era, there has not been a completely waterproof sealed, rechargeable pump made with a sealed switch that you just fasten in and switch on - they make underwater torches and underwater scooters for divers, how difficult would a sealed/rechargeable pump be??

Allan Olesen
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Allan Olesen » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:31 am

seawolf856 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:41 pm
Myself and a friend of mine have spent a lot of our recent paddling time pondering why, in this high tech era, there has not been a completely waterproof sealed, rechargeable pump made with a sealed switch that you just fasten in and switch on
...and I have been pondering why there are so few sprayskirts with a (of course closeable) hole for a manual pump.

I have only seen sprayskirts with such pump holes from one or two vendors.

This was actually one of my reasons for installing the electrical pump. When training rescues in waves or surf, the cockpit will fill faster than I can empty it with the pump because I need to have the sprayskirt detached or at least only partially attached.

sleepyfolk
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:11 am

If you've got a neoprene deck you could have a zip fitted by a wetsuit repair place, only costs about £25

Daker
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Location: Scotland

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Daker » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:22 pm

seawolf856 wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:41 pm
~~ there has not been a completely waterproof sealed, rechargeable pump made with a sealed switch that you just fasten in and switch on - they make underwater torches and underwater scooters for divers, how difficult would a sealed/rechargeable pump be??
http://www.attwoodmarine.com/store/prod ... table-pump
• 6-3/8" high x 5-1/4"
• Pumps up to 200 gallons per hour.
• runs up to 5 hours on three alkaline D batteries

Only problem is that its pretty chunky so not easily stowed behind a seat or similar.
With a modern Li-Ion battery it should be possible to come up with something far more compact I would think, al be it at a price.
kayakbiker wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:31 am
I have now also made a 12v waterproof hand size pump that i use as a backup when out on the sea. It looks a bit rough and ready but its functional and is reliable.
It would be good to see pics of this please as Im sure a lot of people would be interested if this can be done so cheaply and easily sored in the boat.

kayakbiker
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by kayakbiker » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:23 pm

Hi. I just had to contact one of the administrators as I've no idea how to attach images.
As soon as I learn how to do it I'll post some images and video.

My pump is really quite a rough idea based on some of the ideas of this forum but it would be great to see improvements and ideas to the concept.
I also believe that there should be commercial pumps available in this day and age but until there is we have no option to make our own.

Allan Olesen
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Allan Olesen » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:35 pm

kayakbiker wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:23 pm
Hi. I just had to contact one of the administrators as I've no idea how to attach images.
As soon as I learn how to do it I'll post some images and video.
As far as I can see, there is no way of uploading an image to the forum. I can see that other posters have embedded photos which are hosted on third party photo hosting services. You can do that by clicking the image icon in the editor and input a direct link to the photo's location.

Google Photos seems to work for now as a hosting service. It was used by Douglas Wilcox in this thread, perhaps with a little help from this page: https://www.labnol.org/internet/embed-g ... ite/29194/

Photobucket seems to have worked until recently. I guess they have changed their terms and blocked direct linking to their photos, so now a lot of photos have disappeared from the forum. Take a look at the previous pages in this discussion to see what I mean.

kayakbiker
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by kayakbiker » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:15 pm

Allan
Thanks for your help with the link problem.

Well here''s some footage testing the pump in the bath of all places

https://youtu.be/n_l4-YT5eK4

For info it uses an air switch and is powered by a gel battery as per the one I use in my kayak. The pump is an 850 gal. The pump body is slightly larger than I would have liked but I'm not to sure if I could get a lithium ion battery smaller with enough power to run the pump..
I have run it for over 35 minutes with no problem
It's just like the ones we put in our kayaks but a bit smaller
Ive took it on a few trips and I just put it on my foredeck.
Now if I could get a smaller battery, pump body and be able to run the outlet through the body while maintang sealed dry electrics that would be perfect. For now this will do.

seawolf856
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:43 pm

Innovation at its best there kayakbiker. Get yerself on dragon's den.
Just to pick up on another technical frustration, why does it have to be so hard to post photos on here. I also contacted the administrator and to be fair I got an immediate reply but the explanation of how to do it was like an excerpt from a space shuttle service manual!

Allan Olesen
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Allan Olesen » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:38 pm

seawolf856 wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:43 pm
Innovation at its best there kayakbiker. Get yerself on dragon's den.
Just to pick up on another technical frustration, why does it have to be so hard to post photos on here. I also contacted the administrator and to be fair I got an immediate reply but the explanation of how to do it was like an excerpt from a space shuttle service manual!
I suddenly remembered another photo hosting service which makes it a lot easier: postimages.org

You go to that site, upload your photo and get a collection of links that you can copy and paste for miscellaneous uses. If you choose the third link from the bottom, you can paste it directly into your text here without adding any further tags. Example:

Image

seawolf856
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:25 pm

Allan, thanks for the help.

OK I've gone into postimages.org, created an account and uploaded a couple of images but what I do after that is not very clear. I've selected the third link from the bottom of the list but if I copy and paste the link into my reply it just stays as a link, is that right and how do I get the actual image to appear in the post as you have done??
I will try again in a separate post to see if it works. Stick with me, I'll get there in the end.

seawolf856
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:30 pm

So does it work??


Image

seawolf856
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:31 pm

Oh YES !!! Allan Olesen, you are a genius.

seawolf856
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:32 pm

So above is the first image of my electric bilge pump installation. It is a Whale SuperSub 650 automatic pump. The hose is 19mm from B&Q. The skin fitting is a 3/4" BSP, which needs a 1" hole in the deck. I'll post some more photos of the hole drilling and the skin fitting install. I fixed the pump to the back of the seat using cable ties so it can be easily removed for cleaning and maintenance. With careful positioning of the holes in the pump mounting bracket and the passing of two cable ties around the foam block under the seat, the pump remains solidly in position right at the bottom of the hull and empties right down to less than 10mm.
I now need to sort the wiring out, which will be in the fully automatic mode I.e. No switch (for now).
More photos to follow when wires and battery are in place.

seawolf856
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:10 pm

Image

Drilling through the hull is the worst part of the install. Check the proper size of the clearance hole needed for the skin fitting before buying (or borrowing) the hole saw. For example a 3/4" BSP (19mm) skin fitting needs a 1" (25mm) diameter mounting hole.

seawolf856
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:21 pm

Image

The skin fitting installed.
I've paddled with it as it is i.e. without a bung in relatively calm conditions and the NRV which is fitted in the extended outlet of the pump (see first photo) did not let any water into the cockpit via the pump. It might be different in really choppy water so I've got a bung as a back up if needed in the future.

sleepyfolk
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:35 pm

Nice one, pity you can't edit old posts, all the earlier photos have gone, looks like you had a bit more room for the outlet which was handy

Allan Olesen
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Allan Olesen » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:57 pm

seawolf856 wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:21 pm
The skin fitting installed.
This fitting looks exactly like mine (except mine is black). It is too small for my pump. With just the hose fitted to the pump, I get 50% more water out.

And even worse: The small diameter of the skin fitting works as a nozzle, creating a 50-60 cm high beam of water coming out - which can be very annoying during rescue training when the rescuer gets all that water splashed in his face.

I have thought about buying a larger fitting - so much larger that the hose will fit inside the fitting instead.

seawolf856
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:51 am

I did a 'dry' run on land with the 3/4" skin fitting taped to my cockpit rim. It did act as a restriction but my hose run is so short and the supersub 650 pump,has a 3m head so it actually flowed very nicely. Is your pump a higher capacity? but then it would have a 1" exit hose not the 3/4". Anyway, my mate, who is about to embark on this very same project, tells me there is a skin fitting with a 45 degree exit shroud to direct the spurt away from the boat. If he gets one, I might do a retrofit but for now if I've got a boat full of water and waves crashing all around me, the last thing I'm going to be worried about is getting a face full from my bilge pump, in fact it will be strangely reassuring to know it is working so well.

seawolf856
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:02 am

Forgot to mention, the small black mark on the deck behind the skin fitting is the position of my bulkhead so I haven't got room for a bigger hole in my deck. The 3/4" BSP thread on my skin fitting requires a 1" clearance hole so a 1" skin fitting will require an enormous hole and much more flat deck area required for the top flange of the fitting to seal to. Getting a 1" hose to bend as sharp as I need it to is also another reason why I have got to stick with the smaller 3/4" option.

seawolf856
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:52 pm

Finished the wiring last night and went for a fully installed 'dry' run in the back garden this morning. Filled the boat using a hose pipe and waited for the pump to kick in - nothing happened grrrr... everything is now drilled fixed and sealed. The wiring is heat shrink joined and the only possible faults could be 1, flat battery 2, bad wiring connection 3, blown fuse or 4 broken pump. Luckily I'd fitted a 5 amp fuse which has an LED to indicate when it is blown. Sure enough the fuse had blown. I changed the fuse and went for another test run. This time the pump switched on but there was no flow from the outlet. So I removed the NRV and tried again, this time it worked. So I left out the NRV and headed to the river. After a wet exit and righting the boat full of water the pump kicked in and emptied the boat whilst I was climbing in. Everything was going fine until the boat was empty and the pump didn't switch off!!! It was my paddling buddy who spotted my sponge and paddle float stashed behind the seat and covering the pump sensor. These were removed and the pump switched off - hooray, well not quite.
I tried another wet exit and boat fill. This time the pump kicked in fine but as I was climbing in, the pump kept going but it stopped emptying water even though the boat was still quite a bit of water left in, however once I was fully in and steady, the water flow started again?? Was this an airlock? I was able to repeat the same temporary 'no flow' a couple more times, with the flow restarting once the boat was steady.
Anyway when I got home, I went back to bench testing where I changed the angle of the exit hose and fitted a new 'in line' NRV. (Photos to follow). So far I've not managed to airlock the system and the NRV is working ok.
I am sort of 95% happy with the set up but it really needs to work first time, every time in a real situation to convince me that all the hassle has been worth it.
Any comments from the contributors to this post regarding airlocks and similar operational experiences, including blown fuses, would be most helpful.

sleepyfolk
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:31 pm

if it's air locking it must be to do with the discharge hose and the way it is lying I'd think, not had that so can't really help. I know switches can be troublesome but I do like having the option of a manual override.

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PhilAyr
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by PhilAyr » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:55 am

Hi Seawolf,

Yes it does sound like an air lock which can often be put right by switching off and then on again quickly, but to do that you would need a waterproof switch of some sort.

However I would be more concerned about the blown 5amp fuse ! To blow that there must have been a serious draw of current or it could be an intermittent short circuit ( check your wiring and insulation) or hopefully it was just a bad fuse.

I would temporarily put an amp meter in series with the battery just to see how much current is being drawn. It should be no where near 5amps !

Kind regards

Phil

seawolf856
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:16 pm

Thanks Phil,
I measured the current when pumping. It only draws 3.5 Amps. I think the blown fuse was probably caused during the wiring up. I was messing with the wiring with the battery attached. I bought a new batch of 5 Amp fuses and fitted one of those. After about 20'pump outs, the fuse is still intact. I did wonder about putting in a higher rated fuse but Whale recommend the 5 Amp so I'll stick with that for now. All this messing about is really raising the question of reliability of the whole electric bilge pump idea. I've now got to carry spare fuses in my first aid kit.
I've also steepened up the hose run to hopefully avoid airlocks. My Whale supersub pump is supposed to have an anti airlock feature!! However I keep having to remind myself that the pumps we are using are NOT designed for sea kayaks.
Thanks for your input.

seawolf856
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:29 pm

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:38 am

Image

Latest outlet pipe routing with new inline NRV angled upwards. Seems to work in the back yard, yet to be tried on the water. Hopefully the new pipe angle will prevent air locking. However I think the rocking of the boat when the water level is low might induce an airlock and I'm going to have to live with it.

Image

Just to show I've had it working

Image

And just in case I do have to ditch the NRV, my back up bung! If its good enough for Douglas Wilcox, its good enough for me!

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