Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

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kayakbiker
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Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by kayakbiker » Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:38 pm

In the next few weeks I'm planning to fit a bilge pump to my Delphin 155. Just wondering if anyone had any tips or advice please. I have considered a water tight box in the cockpit for the battery as im not sure drilling holes in the foam bulkheads is the way to go or not. If I did drill holes in the foam how would I seal the holes and ensure the foam was still water tight
I was also considering using 3M vhb pads for attaching battery box to the surface of the foam bulkhead and the corelite plastic surface for the rule 500 pump Would this be OK. Is there any other glue I could use that will not adversely react with the kayak's materials.
Thanks for any advice

Daker
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Daker » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:17 am

This is also on my to-do list but I hadn't come up with a fixing method I was happy with so would be interested in any comments.

Personally cant imagine anything would say attached to the foam bulkhead for long if subjected to lively use unless it was either bolted thru the bulkhead (with associated water-tightness risks) or perhaps attached to a larger plate of wood or fibreglass to give a large surface area to attach to the foam.

I hadn't considered VHB tape which could work so long as there is a flat surface to stick it to, I suspect it would eventually work loose but its an easy job to replace.

I had wondered about one of the flexible epoxies which are around these days but, as ever, the issue is getting it to bond to the polyprop (or whatever Corelite is made of) hull.

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:40 pm

I put a Rule 1100GPH pump into a Scorpio. The thick outlet hose attached to a deck fitting almost held the pump in place on its own but I glued a block of black ethafoam with Evostick onto the bulkhead. I had a preshaped cut out just big enough to push the pump body onto. I pushed a bit of rod through the bulkhead then pulled a bit of fishing line back through as I removed the rod. I then used this to pull the pump wire through lubricated with a bit of silicone grease. I also pulled the air switch tube through the bulkhead using the same method. These three piercings have never leaked. The battery and airswitch were then stored in the day hatch.I made another bit of black foam into a pillar which fits between hull and deck inside the day hatch with cutouts for the battery and airswitch. I did not bother putting them in a waterproof box as the day hatch on this Scorpio was bone dry (though a Scorpio MK2 I have out on test at moment does leak a bit). I thought I had put this on my blog but can't find it. I do have some photos somewhere and will post them here when I find them.

Good luck
Douglas

sleepyfolk
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:32 am

Just gathering the parts to fit a whale supersub 1100 to my Delphin, I was also going to use some closed cell foam to make a fitted shape that will secure the pump behind the seat and battery box in the rear compartment. I'm going through the bulkhead with the pump discharge using a 25mm joiner and exiting the pump discharge through the rear hatch with a non return scupper flapper as I couldn't bear to drill a hole in the hull!
Maybe we should all it a few photos of our efforts up, mind you I still can't work out how to put a photo in a post yet!

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:58 am

Greetings sleepy good luck with your fitting.

sleepyfolk>
I'm going through the bulkhead with the pump discharge using a 25mm joiner and exiting the pump discharge through the rear hatch with a non return scupper flapper as I couldn't bear to drill a hole in the hull!
Gosh that will be a right kludge and I really don't like the idea of drilling a big hole in the bulkhead. If you read the small print in the pump instructions it will tell you to use as short an outlet run as possible and with as few bends as possible. They also recommend:
The installation must allow for complete drainage of the hose. All water pockets must be eliminated by having the hose running level or continuously upward.
I suspect you will end up with a sag in the rear compartment. The way these pumps work means that if you have water collected in a low point in a pipe they will not start pumping.

Much easier and more effective to cut a neat hole on the deck. How do you think P&H made the holes in your boat for the end toggles? With a magic wand? :o)
Image

I have tried a whole range of non return valves and they all greatly reduce the flow. Again most pump manufacturers recommend not using them. I just use a bung on a bit of string. If you can't reach the bung just run the string to the cockpit or pull it out before you reenter the boat.

I suggest you test your system before final assembly to see how long it takes to empty a bucket of water then compare that with a short length of hose just long enough to exit on deck. I don't have a Delphin to hand so can't remember if there is room for the pump and exit behind the seat. On my Nordkapp LV I fitted the pump in front of the footrests.

Have fun,
Douglas :o)

sleepyfolk
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:41 pm

I'll definitely be doing a "dry" run first with the parts to make sure it's happy in that position, the pump has a NRV and a self bleed valve fitted and I was hoping the loop would count as an anti syphon loop and not upset it, we shall see!

The length of hose will be short, another delphin install I saw had run it up towards the bow which seems a long way, can't put it on the back deck as the bulkhead is so close all the water will probably fall back into the cockpit and if it goes out the side of the yak it's likely too close to the waterline which the pump says not to do.

I didn't want to drill the boat in case I wanted to sell/change at some point. The foam bulkhead already has a small hole in it for the string retainer for the hatch so it's not exactly watertight and the through bulkhead fitting for the pump discharge will be more watertight than that.

Anyhow, thanks for your pointers, I shall bear them in mind and let you know how I get on in the next couple of weeks.

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by TechnoEngineer » Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:21 pm

There's nothing to stop you from having a free-flow exit tube that you just flop over the coaming when operating the pump, and then tuck it back into the cockpit when you put your spraydeck back on. Also there is the option of a Reed Spraydeck with a Bailer Hole.
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Phizz4 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:05 pm

I couldn't bear drilling a hole in the hull of my present boat (an Alaw) or my previous (a Scorpio) either. In the Scorpio I carved a 'Pilates' foam block (from TKMaxx) to fit behind the seat wedged into place against the bulkhead. The wires went through the bulkhead into the day hatch where the battery (a 12 volt 1.2 amp hour gel) sat in a small Tupperware box held in place by Velcro. To the outlet of the Rule pump I connected a length of flexible hose (from an old hand bilge pump) which just sat curled up behind the seat. I never had to use it in anger but I was able to pump the boat out with the spray deck in place and the hose sandwiched between it and the coming. The pump was triggered by a Rule float switch velcroed to the base of the hull behind the seat. In the Alaw the pump and float switch are held in place by Velcro and so far have survived. The Velcro is easy to replace if it gets a bit weak.

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:34 pm

TechnoEngineer wrote:There's nothing to stop you from having a free-flow exit tube that you just flop over the coaming when operating the pump, and then tuck it back into the cockpit when you put your spraydeck back on. Also there is the option of a Reed Spraydeck with a Bailer Hole.
That's an interesting thought, thanks

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:35 pm

Phizz4 wrote:I couldn't bear drilling a hole in the hull of my present boat (an Alaw) or my previous (a Scorpio) either. In the Scorpio I carved a 'Pilates' foam block (from TKMaxx) to fit behind the seat wedged into place against the bulkhead. The wires went through the bulkhead into the day hatch where the battery (a 12 volt 1.2 amp hour gel) sat in a small Tupperware box held in place by Velcro. To the outlet of the Rule pump I connected a length of flexible hose (from an old hand bilge pump) which just sat curled up behind the seat. I never had to use it in anger but I was able to pump the boat out with the spray deck in place and the hose sandwiched between it and the coming. The pump was triggered by a Rule float switch velcroed to the base of the hull behind the seat. In the Alaw the pump and float switch are held in place by Velcro and so far have survived. The Velcro is easy to replace if it gets a bit weak.
Just out of interest what did you stick the Velcro down with?

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Phizz4 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:24 am

I used some heavy duty sticky backed 50 mm wide Velcro. Screwfix sell it. As long as you clean the surface thoroughly first it seems to work well. It does mean that my whole set up is easily removed for maintenance or if I change boats.

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:42 am

However you rig your electric pump you need to think what circumstances it will be used in and rig it to suit. For me the electric pump is likely to be used if I am on my own and in the water after I have reached the limit of my paddling ability in rough water. Like most people here I initially baulked at the thought of drilling a hole in a new grp boat and adopted techno's elegant solution .
>There's nothing to stop you from having a free-flow exit tube that you just flop over the coaming when operating the pump, and then tuck it back into the cockpit when you put your spraydeck back on. Also there is the option of a Reed Spraydeck with a Bailer Hole.<
I very quickly gave up on this as it was too difficult to get the hose out from behind the seat after a reentry roll and if I got the hose out before I reentered I invariably ended up sitting on it, especially if the hose was flexible enough to fold up. The last thing I want to be doing after reentry rolling with a cockpit full of water in conditions that have already put me in is to have to faff about with a hose. In the water I pull the bung out the deck outlet, switch the pump on then renter roll while the pump does its stuff with no need for further input from me.

sleepy>
I didn't want to drill the boat in case I wanted to sell/change at some point.
<

I have fitted pumps to about 12 boats (not all my own) and sold about 5 with a pump. In each case it was a selling point that appealed to the to the first person that came to see the boat. Much more likely to put a buyer off an RM boat is the state of the bottom.

If you do a search on electric pumps in this forum you will see some of my previous posts on the subject over the last 13 years or so have involved velcro. I no longer use it especially in the cockpit as I paddle a lot off sandy beaches where it quickly clogs with sand which renders it useless. If you do use it you need to make sure you get "industrial strength" velcro and this is already got its own sticky back.

I have used float switches, simple toggle electric switches, magnetic switches, radio switches, air switches and the Rule automatic jet ski pump which spins up for a second every 20 seconds. My favourite is the air switch, though I also have boats with a radio switch and the rule automatic. The float switches are not very practical in rough water because the movement of the boat and the sloshing water keeps switching the pump off and on before the boat is empty. Also the float switch will switch itself off while there is still quite a lot of water in the bottom.

If you are young and flexible enough and don't like drilling holes in boats maybe you should practice the cowboy rescue instead? This works surprisingly well in rough conditions though as you get more kayaking experience you may find it will no longer work in the conditions that are rough enough to put you in. Although I relied on the cowboy rescue as a get out of jail card for 15 years, in my 7th decade I can no longer do the cowboy rescue due to two knee operations a shoulder operation and arthritis of the hip and spine. So that is why I still like electric pumps and the reentry roll.

Douglas

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:03 am

Thanks folks, some great info there

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Daker » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:38 am

Douglas,
Out of interest, why do you say the air switch is you favourite ?

Simple / more reliable / longer lasting / less prone to water damage ?
I take it you haven't experienced any issues with temperature / pressure changes activating the pump ?

I have a broken toggle switch in my Explorer which I've been meaning to fix for ages and was going to go down the reed switch route to keep all the electrics as far away from water as possible. But given that I already have a hole in the rear deck where the toggle goes I could easily replace that with an air switch.

Never having seen one let alone used one, presumably it just works like any other switch - push to trigger the electrical switch at the other end (safely tucked away in the dry), that activates the pump, push again to de-activate it ?

Hmmm, you've got me rethinking this now as I really should do my Delphin at the same time.

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Daker » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:40 am

Oh, meant to add, totally agree that any extra faff with hoses etc when you've already been in the water is to be avoided if at all possible.
Get in, deck on, switch on, paddle to safety and stay upright !

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by TechnoEngineer » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:27 pm

As a side note, you can fit air tubes to the inside of your boat to make it more stable when swamped. You can of course use closed cell foam (and with these tubes you can put pipe lagging over them) but large quantities of CC foam actually weighs quite a bit.
e.g.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5iylrpcx3vx2 ... G_0406.JPG
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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:49 am

Dakar>
Out of interest, why do you say the air switch is you favourite ?

Simple / more reliable / longer lasting / less prone to water damage ?
I take it you haven't experienced any issues with temperature / pressure changes activating the pump ?
All of the above plus if it is in a touring boat there is no current draw as with the radio switch and the Rule automatic PWC pump. Though in practice with both of them I can manage a week away with still plenty of battery charge to empty the boat as long as I disconnect the battery at night.

I found my toggle switches mounted on the cockpit rear bulkhead all corroded. The air switch actuator has no corroding parts and I have mounted it in a variety of places such as just behind the cockpit or inside the cockpit. It is very easy to remove my block of black foam which mounts the battery, wiring, the air switch itself from the day hatch so it can be stored in a dry environment. Two snap connectors for the pump supply and the air tube are the only things to be disconnected. I make sure the pump wires are left long enough to come well out of the day hatch so it is easy to replace the connectors in case they corrode.

I have never had any problems with air pressure or temperature changes activating the pump. There are several types of air switch and the one you want is one press toggle on next press toggle off. I have limited 2G E access to internet at the moment so you will need to do a search of the site to see the Herga air switches I use. Although I was one of the first to use air switches in a sea kayak pump, I claim no originality, it was John Willacy that gave me the idea. I think he also took his thoughts to Rockpool who I think still use air switches on the majority of their factory fitted electrical pumps. And yes Mike Webb uses a hole saw just like mine to drill through the glitter, straight out of the mould. I don't think he bats an eyelid either.

Image
With regard to the outlet I have not found it a problem on most boats to mount it just behind the cockpit rim. Once the spraydeck is on it will not splash water back into the cockpit. Note the simple bung retained by a cord. This means the hose has the shortest run with just a gentle curve and definitely no loops for maximum efficiency.

Like Techno I always try to reduce cockpit volume either by ordering a custom bulkhead or by using an air bag in front of the footrests.

Douglas

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:49 am

[/quote] I can manage a week away with still plenty of battery charge to empty the boat as long as I disconnect the battery at night.


With regard to the outlet I have not found it a problem on most boats to mount it just behind the cockpit rim. Once the spraydeck is on it will not splash water back into the cockpit

Douglas[/quote]

Hi Douglas, what battery do you favour? I was thinking a Yuasa 12ah or 7ah?

Good point about the outlet, once the spray deck is on not a problem, why didn't I think of that!!

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Daker » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:15 am

"I was thinking a Yuasa 12ah or 7ah?"
That sounds WAY too big, I'm pretty sure mine is 1.2Ah which are fairly cheap and readily available, including from the likes of Screwfix.

I've used that for days playing in tidal races / rolling / rescues with frequent emptying and its been totally fine so unless you are planning on a week long trip with many swims, I cant see you needing anything much bigger.

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:04 pm

Daker wrote:"I was thinking a Yuasa 12ah or 7ah?"
That sounds WAY too big, I'm pretty sure mine is 1.2Ah which are fairly cheap and readily available, including from the likes of Screwfix.

I've used that for days playing in tidal races / rolling / rescues with frequent emptying and its been totally fine so unless you are planning on a week long trip with many swims, I cant see you needing anything much bigger.
Great, that'll save a bob or two

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:48 pm

I agree with Daker, I use 1.2 AH Yuasa. Amazingly it supplies enough current to an 1100GPH rule pump to empty the cockpit several times.

Douglas

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by flat earth sails » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:28 am

Re air swich, hear in a wormer climat air expantion in the air tube can tern the swich on, iv comershaly instaled dozens of air swiches, i put a small pin prick hole in the tube , inside the day hatch, this lets the preshure equilise , the volume of air from the bellows still trigers the swich. I also try and disconect the tube when not in youse , little grandchildrens fingers love to play with pumps when ther siting in the back yard !

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by al morris » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:39 am

Hi All, planning on fitting a pump myself soonish. Just a quick question on charging a 1.2v sealed battery. Whats the best/quickest way to recharge it?

sleepyfolk
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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:15 am

You can get a little charger from maplins, if I remember rightly charge current should be no more than 25% of the ah capacity so these diddy batteries only need a diddy charger. There will be a data sheet for your battery that will indicate max charge current, discharge current etc

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by kayakbiker » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:22 am

Thanks to everyone for your feedback on this subject Special mention and thanks to Douglas as your blogs inspired me to go out and try fitting a pump to my own kayak.

I should let you know that my current set up is a peli case 1050 for my 1.3 amp battery. My dry battery box s attached behind my seat with a couple of cable ties and the pump with a vrb patch which seems to be super sticky and so far is holding well. I have a flexible hose that also tucks behind my seat which I just pull up when wet exiting and doing cowboy self rescues.
I use an overland zen switch which I have attached to the side of my seat and from what I can see it is waterproof. I'm not sure if it will last but time will tell.
All my wiring has been sealed with soudaflex sealant. I was advised by someone that this us used on kayaks for sealing bulkheads and was good for sealing wiring
So far I'm quote pleased with my setup but as discussed I may very well drill a hole eventually for my flexible discharge hose. It is true that there is not much room behind the delphin seat for a hole to be drilled. Much of the top surface is grooved with little flat profiled surface available. However, there may just be enough.
One things for sure as a beginner in the world of kayaking this little pump give's me so much more confidence when heading out on the water. I can practice rolling and not need to go back to shore every wet exit to empty my boat and I feel I can go further on my own while I continue to work on a reliable roll. Its a shame manufacturers didn't provide these pump fittings as an optional extra . Personally, I think for safety sake that would be a good idea

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by al morris » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:29 pm

@ Kayakbiker, where did you end up locating the switch?

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by PhilAyr » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:31 pm

Kayakbiker,

For what it's worth the zen switch in my opinion is a no-no. I would give it a few months before it starts to go intermittent with internal corrosion problems and ultimately dies. It's not something you want to leave to chance. In a nightmare scenario you need it to work first time without fail, no ifs or buts ! Please re-consider this and go for an air switch, magnetic switch or in my case a radio control garage door switch. Or alternatively stick the zen switch into the day-hatch away from the salt water. It will probably last longer but eventually the salt air will get to it. Afterthought.. The Delphin doesn't have a day hatch.. Sorry !

As for the flexible hose... The last thing you want to be doing in an emergency situation is having to mess about with a hose while at the same time trying to stay upright !

I do apologise for sounding negative but it is your safety we are talking about.

Phil

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Sean_soup » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:28 pm

PhilAyr wrote: Afterthought.. The Delphin doesn't have a day hatch.. Sorry !
Unless it's a quite new one - they started making them with a day hatch earlier this year. :-)

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by kayakbiker » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:51 pm

Phil
Thanks for your advice.
I should say though the overland zen switch that I've got seems to be waterproof. In fact I've actually smeared sealant all around the base to ensure there's no way water's going to get into it. Here's the ebay item number of the one I'm using 162153247118
Just wondering what you guys think about this switch as a short term answer.

I do however think your right about the hose and the switch and ultimately I'll probably end up with a better setup once i got over the thought of drilling holes in my new kayak. It is the older version by the way with the leaky mini hatch.

I get what you mean about safety and that's why I've got a pump. While not the perfect solution I'm heading that way and while I've not completly reduced the risk of pump failure I've increased my safety margin by actually fitting a pump in the first place. I couldn't believe how slow it was to empty a kayak cockpit with a manual pump when I first tried.. Anyway, even though manual pumps don't impress me I'll still be taking it with me just as a backup even after Ive got my magnetic switch
Cheers

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Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:55 pm

Contralube 770 is a good sealant for electrical connections, not too expensive either

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