CAMPING and TICKS

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kayakski
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CAMPING and TICKS

Post by kayakski » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:40 am

Hi All, Over the years we have all been plagued by the dreaded Tick. For several years now I have been spraying my trainers, boots,
and under the ground sheet and porch area of my tent with Fly Killer which has an active ingredient called Permethrin in it. Since doing this while away paddling and roaming the west coast and highlands I have not had one single problem with Ticks! It should be noted that some areas I camped were known Tick hot spots with sheep and bracken especially on the west of Lewis and Scotland. When spraying under and around my tent I would leave it for a while to let the fumes die down as it's not healthy to breath these products. I had a discussion with someone who had teated people suffering from Limes Disease and they confirmed that this chemical is know to keep ticks away, it is also used in some outdoor materials to keep midges and other nasties away! You could try this as the Ticks this year are really a threat and some areas are know to be bad for ticks with Limes Disease. This is only my findings to date as before I use to get home covered in Ticks. Who knows maybe I have just been lucky and it doesn't work! No harm in trying.

Shewie
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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by Shewie » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:53 pm

I've been using permethrin for a number of years now and the results have been very positive. I use a spray-on from Nomad Travel which I treat my camping gear and clothing with a couple of times a year. I spend a lot of time of the Scottish west coast which is usually rife with deer and therefore ticks, since using permethrin I've hardly had a nibble.
A good recent example was a trip to Loch Sween a couple of weeks ago, I pre-sprayed my shelter and clothing and remained tick free for the five days we were there, the other 3 guys all had ticks of various sizes embedded in some unmentionable places. One guy who turned up for just two nights went home with 11 of them in the back of his legs and arms.

I've only tried the brand I mentioned earlier but I've heard of people using stock obtained from vets, it's worth subscribing to Nomad for their newsletter and they occasionally do good deals like 2 for 1 etc. A bottle of their Ultra clothing treatment usually lasts me a couple of years.

EDIT:
- Just had a look on their website and can't see it any more, I've pinged them an email to find out the status

I'll report back with their response

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:06 pm

I have a particular interest in this as my brother in Elgin (Moray is a hotspot) has chronic Lyme disease from a tick bite. My daughter also developed a classical red target lesion round a tick bite which is associated with early Lyme disease but was fortunately successfully treated as the GP recognised it and made the diagnosis immediately.

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My paddling friend Tony is a professor of parasitology and is currently advisor to a student doing a PhD project on the incidence of borellia bacteria (which causes Lyme disease in humans) in ticks and various vectors. We were on Jura in mid April and were sitting on a bank having lunch when we were horrified to see tens of the small larval ticks crawling over our hands. We had both used DEET round our ankles. When walking through undergrowth we tuck our trousers into our socks. In spring summer and autumn I always also carry a can of fly spray containing permethrin. This works in a different way to DEET which is an insect repellent. Permethrin is a knock down agent which effectively paralyses the insect's nervous system but does not kill it. I like having the combination not just for ticks but also for midges. Permethrin is highly toxic to fish and to a lesser extent to cats and birds. Keep DEET away from your tent or it will dissolve it!

There is a good article about Lyme disease here

Tony and Lucy who are both professionals with an interest in ticks have previously posted here.

Douglas

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by MikeB » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:40 pm

I've had good results with this - Prevent - http://www.pestcontroldirect.co.uk/acat ... rosol.html - as recommended some time ago by Douglas iirc. Hard to find, and with postage from that seller, a little pricey - but I've just ordered some more.

It's a very convenient mini aerosol which lives in my tent-peg bag so the inside of the tent gets a spray as soon as it goes up, as does the gap between the fly and the inner a wee while before turning in for the night. In the morning, there is a gratifyingly large quantity of midge corpses on the top of the inner.

I'll be trying it on my boots / trousers on an upcoming trip to Scarba / Jura area soon to see how it works for ticks. As a midge repellent I can't say I've found it especially effective though, despite the obvious slaughter in the tent.

I'm also going to try a product I came across on BushcraftUK - "Stupidly Simple" - which is claimed to be an effective tick (and midge) repellent.

I hate DEET! Mike.

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by Shewie » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:47 pm

Douglas Wilcox wrote:This works in a different way to DEET which is an insect repellent. Permethrin is a knock down agent which effectively paralyses the insect's nervous system but does not kill it. I like having the combination not just for ticks but also for midges. Permethrin is highly toxic to fish and to a lesser extent to cats and birds. Keep DEET away from your tent or it will dissolve it!
Thanks for that Douglas, I was always under the impression that Permethrin killed on contact, but I guess paralysis is enough to get by. I wonder if that's permanent paralysis or just temporary.

Wilmas Nordic Summer or Simply Stupid for the midges, plus a Beatons jacket just in case :)

Fionas Simply Stupid smells like Wilmas but with a lemony tint. I also had some success with Avon SSS a couple of years ago in Arisaig, I tried it ages ago on a trip down Loch Fyne and found it useless, but it was the only thing that kept the flying teeth away that week. I tend to carry a bit of a mixed arsenal now, even Autan seems to work sometimes.

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by Chilliphil » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:41 am

I react really badly to all sorts of bites so need to be careful, I also hate DEET but sometimes needs must. Avon SSS didn't work for me at all and was left covered in bites after using it. The simply stupid does work though, really well, and I love the smell of it. I always have a tin of it with my camping kit or in the car. Not sure how it works against ticks, but I've not had any whilst using it.

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by MikeB » Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:44 pm

Chilliphil wrote:I react really badly to all sorts of bites so need to be careful,
Antihistamine? I take one daily when I'm away as a matter of course. I suffer a bit from hay-fever when I'm camping, but it also stops the dreadful itching when I do get midge bites, even with whatever protection I'm using. That protection is generally a midge jacket!

Very interested indeed in your comment on SS - we will see!

I have a little canister of "midge repel" - I guess that's what you're referring to? Also, a bottle of "bug oil" and a small sample of "tick and bug repellent lotion".

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by Chilliphil » Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:40 pm

Yep, I take antihistamine once a day anyway but still react badly. One doctor advised that I shouldn't go outside as much!! Like that will ever happen, I'm a Scout Leader and spend most of my time outside!

Yes, it's the midge repel I've got. I've not tried the other products yet so will be interested to hear how you get on with those. The good thing with the midge repel is you don't have to cover yourself with it like with DEET products. I tend to just rub a bit on my legs, arms and back of my neck. It's good if you rub it where you sweat as this then carries it across your skin further.

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Mr Ed
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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by Mr Ed » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:03 pm

We've seen a fair few ticks on Anglesey this year just while stopped for lunch in sheep country. Seems there's lots of them about unfortunately.

I hate the idea of waging chemical warfare on nature though when I head out into the wilderness to try and interact with it as peacefully as I can. Saying that though having had a family member go through Lyme's disease I wouldn't wish that on anyone either.

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by Shewie » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:43 pm

The changes in ship dipping practises a few years ago has a lot to answer for I think

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by MikeB » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:50 pm

Mr Ed wrote: I hate the idea of waging chemical warfare on nature though when I head out into the wilderness to try and interact with it as peacefully as I can. Saying that though having had a family member go through Lyme's disease I wouldn't wish that on anyone either.
I shall endeavour to have peaceful interactions with midges and ticks - they will certainly be peaceful after I've dealt with them!
Shewie wrote:The changes in ship dipping practises a few years ago has a lot to answer for I think


Seems so - the farmers feel a lot better for it though!

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:10 pm

Image
Ardlamont Bay.

As mentioned above, you need to understand how an anti-insect product works to get the best out of it. A lot of people are sceptical about the effectiveness of Avon Skin So Soft but in reality if you use the right product it is highly effective against midges. First off there are multiple ASSS products. The one you want is the oily spray. Then you need to know how to use it. Don't rub it in! ASSS is not a deterrent or a knock down agent, it is a physical barrier. Spray it on and leave it so you get your skin nice and oily. We did a trial two years ago in Ardlamont Bay which is a very midgy place. We sprayed the back of one hand and left the other hand alone. Soon there were midges all over both hands but the midges on the ASSS hand were all dead, they had been unable to bite and had drowned in the oil. The other hand was badly bitten by midges so we ended the trial early as it would have been unethical to continue, given the dramatic benefit of correctly applied oily ASSS.

Douglas

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by e-wan » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:05 pm

Dont like DEET either.

So are you saying it's helpful to have one product for ticks and another for midges or is there something that will do both

thanks

Ewan

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:28 pm

Hi Ewan midges and ticks like DEET less than you do. I use multiple chemical and physical methods for both as I have described above. There is no magic single solution. However, if I am walking on Jura I wear long trousers put DEET on my ankles then tuck my trousers into my socks.
Douglas

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by gnarlydog » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:01 am

luckily ticks are not so prominent in the areas where I kayak or hike and rarely I get bitten
I was interested in the Avon SSS and just checked some online sources about the ingredients.
No presence of DEET (which by the way dissolves nylon and polycarbonate, but seems to be OK with polyester?) but a list of other chemicals.
Once conclusion got me worried a bit:


"While the synergistic effects of these mixtures of chemicals are unknown and likely much more toxic than the individual ingredients. The ingredients in these products are known or suspected to cause many illnesses including cancers, immunological toxicity, endocrine disruption, skin, eyes and lung irritation, allergies, cellular level changes to the body, neurotoxicity, developmental and organ system toxicity and there are also concerns of persist bio-accumulation and contamination."
http://www.colorfulcanary.com/2012/05/w ... t-mor.html

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lg18
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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by lg18 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:11 pm

A warning about using Avon Skin So Soft - although I found it to work well due to midges sticking to it, I couldn't paddle after applying it as my oily hands just slipped so badly on the paddle shaft! I couldn't get the oil off, even after wiping on spraydeck, BA, hair, in the sea... So now I do a fly impression and use only the back of my hands to smear it around.

Ticks - it is useful to know that the really tiny ones that occur in their hundreds on your trousers should not be infected as they are newly hatched and haven't yet had a feed on an animal (they look a bit like brown pepper dust). The big ones (2-3yr old red adult females), while can be infected, are less abundant and more easily noticed so are less of a danger. It is the medium sized grey/black ones that cause the most cases of Lyme disease as they are plentiful and small enough to escape unnoticed.

Even if using DEET or permethrin it is really important to check yourself really thoroughly every evening and remove any attached asap using a tick tool or fine tweezers. If they are attached for less than a day the danger of infection is much reduced. There is a lot of scare-mongering in the media about Lyme disease, but really in Scotland we are lucky as only around 5-6% on average of these ticks carry the Lyme disease pathogen (Borrelia), and apparently (according to a big Swedish study) most people that get infected never even know it as their immune systems zap it effectively. But if you do get a bullseye rash and/or flu-like symptoms after finding a tick attached for a day or more, definitely go to a doctor. Doxycycline does the job in the vast majoriy of cases. Unfortunately, some unlucky people are not diagnosed or treated quickly and can get chronic symptoms (I've suffered from this myself, not nice - so it really is essential to check yourselves really really properly (I thought I had check properly, but clearly hadn't).

Hope that's helpful!
Lucy

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by johntp » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:20 pm

try this link for a shot video on an easy way to remove tick with a cotton bud, hope this helps. http://entertainment.damn.com/tick-remo ... ign=tickf5

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by kayakski » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:59 am

Hi All, The reason why I wanted this brought to light is I heard of an old friend who use to ski in Glencoe and was a Gamekeeper,
sadly he passed away with Lyme disease from ticks. If you use tweezers or ( cover it in butter, vaseline etc., an old way in the highlands ) to remove a tick it's stomach contents can be forced out back into your body and if its infected then so are you. Always use the plastic tick removers as they don't squeeze the contents from tick to you. If you have picked or scratched a tick it digs into your skin deeper, don't try and remove it for a while or you will leave the head in.
For midges I use Avon SSS as it has no harmful chemicals in it and it works most of the time. I hate using chemicals but at least the spray round the tent and ankles works to keep the ticks away. Thanks for the response

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lg18
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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by lg18 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:34 pm

kayakski wrote: If you use tweezers or ( cover it in butter, vaseline etc., an old way in the highlands ) to remove a tick it's stomach contents can be forced out back into your body and if its infected then so are you
This is why fine tweezers are needed so you get them by the mouthparts right next to your skin rather than squeeze their body.

Do remove asap, don't wait - the longer it is attached, the more the chance of infection.

Leaving the head in is obviously best avoided if possible as it increases the chance of minor skin irritations, but will not impact on the chance of Lyme borreliosis.

Happy camping!

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by canoegnu » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:54 am

I once read a post (can't remember where) from a Scottish forestry worker, which said spraying socks and bottoms of trouser legs with TCP effectively repelled ticks. I've never tried it myself.

If you don't like DEET, what about citronella based products? Are they effective against ticks?

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by MikeB » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:55 pm

I can report that the Stupidly Simple - in all it's forms - is Utterly Useless. I'll be asking for my money back in fact. My advice, avoid it. Get a midge jacket - take antihistamine - man up. There is no effective repellant.

As to killing the barstards, Prevent sprayed into the tent works a treat!

It may well also deter ticks. We're back from a week around Scarba / Garvellachs etc. I sprayed my boots with it - no ticks. Catherine didn't, and had a few.

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by kayakski » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:09 am

Hi Mikeb, So you found SS useless! I found it only worked in some areas on the west coast and in others was useless. Strange!
As to spraying around the porch area of the tent, yep it works when sitting around in the evening, no ticks. I also have a couple of citronella candles to keep the little midgie b....... away when in the porch keeping out of the rain. However I hear that Citronella is no use for Ticks and helps a wee bit to keep Midges at bay. Rest assured Ticks and me are deadly foes and I will do everything to make sure they rest in peace!

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by e-wan » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:53 am

http://m.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top ... -1-1403152

Just noticed this, any idea which avon product it is referring to and if it is still available

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by kayakski » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:50 am

Hi e-wan, It's Skin So Soft and yes you can still get it. You don't have to go to a girl's night out with Avon ( unless you want to! )
some shops now have it for sale. Some Gamekeepers who I know use it.

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by MikeB » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:39 pm

lg18 wrote:
kayakski wrote: If you use tweezers or ( cover it in butter, vaseline etc., an old way in the highlands ) to remove a tick it's stomach contents can be forced out back into your body and if its infected then so are you
This is why fine tweezers are needed so you get them by the mouthparts right next to your skin rather than squeeze their body.
The O'Tom Tick Twister is the answer. http://www.otom.com/how-to-remove-a-tick

Cheap, easy to find online and simple to use. And far safer than messing around with vaseline, cotton buds, butter, fags and similar solutions.

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John K
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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by John K » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:56 pm

I've never even seen a tick so far and have had my head firmly in the sand up until now. Having read several articles about them recently I've just bought a couple of sets of Tick Twisters to have handy just in case!

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by jmmoxon » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:50 pm

Some people seem to attract more ticks than others just as some people seem to attract more midges, here's an alternative method that appears to work if you don't have a tick remover:



Mike

N.B. This video was mentioned above but that copy is now password protected.
http://kayakworldguide.forums-free.com Links to websites with info on white water, touring, sea & surf.

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by MikeB » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:33 pm

Updating on the SS product, the maker kindly refunded me - which was nice - and commented that they had only ever had four reports of "failure" for their products, and all four were in respect of west highland midges. Clearly a special breed of midge!

I note an experiment in South America where genetically modified mosquitoes are being released - their offspring die quickly, and the objective is to control the spread of Dengue Fever by reducing the mosquito population. I so wish someone would generically modify Scottish midges to just die!

Although I'm also reliably informed that they form an important part of the food chain. I don't like being their food.

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by MikeB » Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:00 pm

Interestingly, the Highland Council has some good info at http://www.highland.gov.uk/ticks , and is offering a free tick-removal tool.

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Re: CAMPING and TICKS

Post by Jonathan. » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:36 pm

Ticks becoming more of a menace - today's Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... ers-to-act
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