Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd^

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kayak1
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Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd^

Post by kayak1 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:40 pm

Hi
I'm looking at getting a Sail for my kayak, are there any out there that I should avoid or should go for..do they help or hinder and if anyone know where they are available new or second hand..Cheers

ruralweb
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by ruralweb » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:22 pm

Get a Flat Earth and avoid anything else!
Mal

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MikeB
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by MikeB » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:44 pm

KariTek seem to be the major players in supplying sails, although I believe P&H are offering them as well.

Erewash
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by Erewash » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:13 pm

I'm using a Pacific Action sail, much cheaper than the Flat Earth sails, and much simpler.

I'm just a kayaker, not a sailor, and use the sail for aiding paddling, so I can't comment on any sailing manoeuvres you can or can't do with the PA sail, but it suits me well. Very easy to attach to the kayak or take off if you don't want to use it, very easy to deploy or to douse. Used it up to force 4 winds and still felt safe. At one point I rafted up with two other kayaks, and with just my sail our raft made 4 mph.

Mike

flat earth sails
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by flat earth sails » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:03 pm

Re kayak sails,
Befor desiding on which sail think about a few things, the sail rig needs to be dropped and stowed fast when things get interesting. Can the sail be de powerd emidiatly just by leting the sheet go? With dingy sailing to get into a safe position you tern into the wind in a kayak the most unstabel sail position is trending acros the wind insted of terning the kayak into the wind tred the sail into the wind then manuverabel the kayak.
When things go rong thay hapen quiker with a sail
Consider always yousing a paddle leash when sailing,
With eny sail rig that relies on side stays thers a lot of downword forse on the mast make shore the deck can Handel it.
When choosing a sail rig consider that you need a fuse in the sistem, if it's got side stays its best to have them just strong enough for the job, if thay get over loded thay snap, not yor kayak
The mast needs to be just strong enough, if you do sumthing stupid you brake a mast , it's a cheeper alternative to punching a hole in your deck, and on a big adventure you don't wont a hole in the kayak part way through the trip , if you buger the sail you can still paddle.
In big conditions don't forget to paddle as well, this will help to maintain controle and counter balance the force from strong winds.
Don't leave the sail on the kayak when roof toping five minits of 100kmh will take 5 years of the life of the sail and void all manufacturers woranty.

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gnarlydog
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by gnarlydog » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:01 am

To date I have tried a few sails and the one I like the most is the Flat Earth.
I like my equipment to be solid and reliable and I enjoy sailing in higher winds too.
I believe in having a sturdy set up that does not fail before I chicken out (around 30 knots).

Image
.
I mount my sails a bit differently than what is suggested by Mick of Flat Earth as I found the "conventional" system a bit dangerous.
Details here: http://gnarlydognews.blogspot.com.au/20 ... tions.html

I use carbon fibre masts with Dyneema lines to keep my mast vertical on a beam wind. I also reinforced the decks of my kayaks that were flexing as the down force created by mast is considerable.
There is also a lot of force generated on the anchors points of the stays and a light lay up deck might suffer from those anchors pulling out and cracking the deck.
I suggest anchoring the stays on the seam of the hull/deck where the load will be in shear therefore so much stronger.
Last but not least: bigger is not always better. Having a 1mt² of sail in 20 knots wind is not going to move my kayak faster (than max hull speed) than a smaller sail . A large sail is suited better for lighter winds, optimally around 10 knots.

I don't like how the Pacific Action sail is attached to the kayak and how the base rubs on the deck; it looks a bit agricultural not to mention that bringing down that sail in higher winds is a bit of a chore (the shock cords try to keep it upright).

There is a bit of material on my blog about sea kayak sailing: http://gnarlydognews.blogspot.com.au/se ... el/sailing

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:51 pm

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I have used both Pacific Action and...

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...Flat Earth but only use one of them now.

Douglas

kayak1
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by kayak1 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:15 pm

Hi Thanks everyone for your input..for me the simplest sail with minimal or no real fixings to the deck is what im looking for, as I don't see me being a kayak sailor.. just want some assistance when the wind is blowing..Thanks

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gnarlydog
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by gnarlydog » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:19 am

oh, in that case a sturdy golf umbrella is really good.
I am not kidding: I have seen several sea kayakers using one and they get good propulsion from one as long as the wind does not pick up too much and fold it forward.
No drilling, no reinforcements and usually extremely well priced if compared to a serious kayak sail
Of course tail wind is pretty much all you can use

geoffm
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by geoffm » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:43 am

If you are going to sail, do it properly and fit a Flat Earth, using an umbrella is only going to end up putting you in a dangerous situation as you try to brace one handed in a gust, or just paddle without a sail. There really is no half way. Don't forget you usually paddle as well as sail, don't just expect to sit there as you sail.
Almost everyone else in Australia disagrees with Gnarlydog re stay position. The rest of us i.e 90%+ consider his stay setup significantly more dangerous as the sail cannot be depowered properly in a strong tail wind.
Geoff

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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by sunstreaker » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:58 pm

What about a Windpaddle ? they just don't seem to look right but they seem to tick lots is boxes when it comes to functionality
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ruralweb
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by ruralweb » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:51 pm

Ive used a wind paddle and they are OK for downwind use HOWEVER when the wind gets up they are very very hard to get down (you need to let go of your paddle) and can easily fall to one side where they scoop up the water and flip you over.. Anything over F3 and they are dangerous unless you raft up.
Mal

kayak1
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by kayak1 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:58 pm

Yes the wind paddle I have seen and seems doable...I cant see me deliberately going out into the sea in gale force winds and enjoying myself... coastal exploration, a flask of coffee and sandwiches in a hidden cove then heading back or an overnighter is what my bag is...with plenty of that down here in South Wales and Pembrokeshire. Thanks again everyone!

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:29 pm

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We have tried brollies...

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and the windpaddle. You cant paddle with either of them and I would not use either on the open sea. I did a detailed review of the Windpaddle in OceanPaddler #39. I haven't used it since.

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Get the drill out and fit...

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...a Flat Earth rig.

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I have some information about fitting and using Flat Earth rigs here.

Douglas

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saiingneil
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by saiingneil » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:08 pm

I will admit that I have only tired a flat earth sail, but I love it. I always brings a smile to my face when I catch a wee gust and my boat accelerates.

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gnarlydog
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by gnarlydog » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:40 am

Almost everyone else in Australia disagrees with Gnarlydog re stay position.
I am aware of that, and I am also aware of most kayakers disagreeing on my paddle choice: Greenland style :-)

Back to the stays: I like to observe what other do and then make my own decisions.
Before Flat Earth sails existed I saw a very similar sail mounted on Sea Mongrel's kayak.
While our UK cousins might not be aware of him I am sure that he is well known Down Under: http://www.seamongrels.com/seamongrels/
He has been sailing for a very long time, in very strong winds and big seas.
My sails, before I was sponsored by Flat Earth, were almost a copy of Sea Mongrel's.
Once Mick gave me his first sail to test I mounted it the way I knew worked for me (same as Sea Mongrel, but different hardware) and have ever since.
Now, I understand why so many people like the Flat Earth sanctioned style of mounting: it works well when learning and when the paddler is timid and afraid of wind gusts.
I had my share of getting tipped over and swims when I was pushing the limits of my skills.
Once I learned how to roll with a sail things became easier and no longer I fear so much of being tipped.
Why I don't use the conventional/recommended way of mounting a sail? after breaking a few masts myself and seeing others do the same (with stays mounted below the boom) I want to have a solid set up that allows me to have fun in higher winds.

Image

I am sure tho that having the ability to "de-power" the sail in an instant (it takes me a bit longer to do that on my set up) is very desirable for some. I just value sturdiness and reliability more

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:12 am

As you can see Gnarly and I have chosen different ways to mount our Flat Earth sails but it is patently obvious we are both having fun. I have tried Flat Earth sails mounted both ways and I prefer my sail mounted higher than Gnarly's... to catch more wind!

Whatever way you mount your sail you will have a whole heap of fun.

Douglas :o)

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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by geoffm » Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:21 pm

I understand why so many people like the Flat Earth sanctioned style of mounting: it works well when learning and when the paddler is timid and afraid of wind gusts.
Gnarly's inference there is that everyone that uses the accepted style of mounting a Flat Earth sail is a beginner and that only he is a true rough water sailing paddler. That's his opinion.....no one elses :-)

And trying to hang off other people's accomplishments (Sea Mongrel's) is a waste of time ...

Geoff

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maryinoxford
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by maryinoxford » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:18 pm

Windpaddle:

You can paddle while using the Windpaddle. The cord/ sheet needs to be held, but you can loop it round the back of your head, as this man is doing, to keep your hands free:
Image

The cord angle is high enough that it's easy to duck out from it. The sail will then collapse forward. But folding it is a 2-handed job, and if you leave it open on your deck, then as ruralweb says, it can fall to the side, scoop up water and become a one-sided sea anchor. The only time I used a Windpaddle, winds were very light and I had no problems managing it, but you'd want to work out some strategies before going out in stronger breezes.

Advantages are that all you need to fit it are 2 dees or other anchor points on your deck, and it folds down to a neat bundle 1/3 of the open size.

Mary
Not in Oxford any more...

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:13 am

Hi Mary I was aware that if you put the sheet round your neck, or clip it to your BA or held it in your teeth that you could paddle with the wind paddle and mentioned that in my review in OP. I did try to do this in stronger winds but it was not safe or practical to do so for any length of time. On the main wind paddle website they claim the adventure sail range is 5 to 30 knots and that it for large water or offshore conditions. This was based on experiences reported by the 2010 Svalbard expedition they sponsored and the light wind photo you show comes from that. If you go to the expedition's own blog you discover that in "stronger" (and I do not mean force 6) winds they had to raft up.

To say this sail is useable in 30 knots is very misleading. I have been sailing all my life and windsurfing in force 7 to 8 winds since the early 1980s. I have been sea kayaking since 2002 and paddle sailing with a variety of rigs since 2009. My opinion is that the wind paddle is highly suited to light winds and sheltered water and for people who do not want to drill holes in their boat. I do not think it is safe to use in winds up to 30 knots on open water. In UK latitudes you also get cold very quickly just sitting there and not paddling in a wind. The Ocean Paddler review is not quoted in either their.com or .co.uk websites so you will need to bear that in mind when you judge my my comments, perhaps I am just in the huff that they haven't quoted me? Or....

Best wishes,
Douglas

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maryinoxford
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by maryinoxford » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:16 pm

Thanks, Douglas.
Douglas Wilcox wrote:My opinion is that the wind paddle is highly suited to light winds and sheltered water and for people who do not want to drill holes in their boat.
Yes, that was exactly my position when I used one (with a folding kayak). I agree that the makers are over-enthusiastic, to say the least, about the conditions where it might be used.

Mary
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adventureagent
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by adventureagent » Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:30 pm

I've used the Windpaddle sail in 40 km winds, while surfing some waves. I had the line around my head most times out, but in these conditions, I had enough to track with leans, angling the sail, ruddering, and holding the paddle.

When released, indeed, the sail drags on one side, is a bucket of water off to the side in dynamic water. Picking it up would be better if two hands could be used. So, in rough conditions, it's a little awkward.

On "flat" water, with 40 km winds, it was a smooth, quick sail, and I could tack at a fair angle. I was using the Point 65 XP 18, 21" beam.

I don't like the risk of capsizing with these lines, the sail, and my paddle leash, as the entanglement in these winds/breaking waves wouldn't be fun.

I know you're supposed to be able to use your rescue knife, but I think I'd be pre-occupied with finding air. In my case, the rest of the club was nearer to shore, and none were having the fun I was; or the risks. So, I expect that self rescue is what it would be, as the clubbers would not venture out.

There's a risk. I'm not sure it's any different with any of the other sail rigs, in good chop. Any mast and lines and stays must create risks.

What's the experience of you experienced kayak sailors in a capsize situation? I'd like to learn from someone else's experience before I make the big mistake.
CELEBRATE LIFE: PADDLE by ALL MEANS !

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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by ruralweb » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:21 pm

I've experimented capsizing with a windpaddle and it's very difficult to get the kayak turned upright as the sail prevents any attempt to turn the kayak upright. The flat earth sail needs the uphaul releasing but the kayak easily comes up - you can even do a roll with it.

I think a windpaddle is great for casual use but in winds about F3 it gets difficult to get down - I used it with the cord behind my head so I could paddle as well. Rafted up with two of them in a F6 is quite fun !
Mal

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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by geoffm » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:27 pm

I haven't had the pleasure of capsizing whilst sailing ......yet, but I have practised rolling the kayak with the sail up (Flat Earth). It is certainly doable but in a genuine rough conditions situation it probably isn't going to happen so a wet exit is likely. That's fine though, the rigging of the FEKS isn't going to tangle you, it's too far away, and furling the sail and re enter and roll is easy.
I simply cannot ever imagine myself putting a line around my neck whilst sailing, it's just so dangerous.
Geoff

ruralweb
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by ruralweb » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:42 pm

The place to put the line is behind your head just above your ears - it's surprisingly comfortable even in a strong wind and can easily be released by putting your head forward, however that will let it fall forward and to the side so not ideal.

I've never accidentally capsised using the flat earth sail - in strong winds I think it actually makes the kayak more stable as you end up leaning against it.
Mal

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MikeB
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by MikeB » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:51 pm

I've never sailed a kayak.

I do, however, just love the idea of sailing a kayak with a bit of cord "round my head" so that it could potentially end up as a noose around my neck when I'm trying to sort out a capsize and I'm in the water.

While I admit I have no expertise in this area - I will however just comment that it sounds like a really well thought through process, and I'm disappointed the designer has not had some form of recognition for the genius of of the concept. It really does look like an outstanding example of technical excellence.

I'll go further - that they actually seem to be advocating this in their marketing and "how to" advice also suggests an extraordinary degree of faith in the concept. Either that, or they carry considerable liability insurance and/or feel they may be immune from being sued. Such confidence in a concept is to be applauded.

Mike.

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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by geoffm » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:53 pm

Stability rather depends on how gusty the wind is.
There is a lot of talk about using sails in strong winds but in reality anything much over 20-25 knots (wind, not gust) and 2m wind waves is going to have most people dropping the sail. Kayakers are notorious for overestimating wave height and wind speed....
Geoff

ruralweb
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by ruralweb » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:57 pm

Flat earth sails are limited to about F5 as the mast bends especially if it's gusty - we had two masts bend in the same gust a couple of years ago. The windpaddle does not seem as affected by gusts perhaps because it it lower and does not have the leverage a flat earth sail has. Also with a flat earth sail you can leave it up with light variable winds and paddle this lets you capture any wind that will help while headwinds just blow the sail back - with a windpaddle this is not possible as the sail is blown back into your face - yet another hazard!!
Mal

kayak1
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by kayak1 » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:15 pm

There seems to be a difference of opinion on all variations of sail, It does make me think of the possibilities of entanglement in a worst case scenario, Surely your body would act as some sort of sail...anyone thought of an underarm webbed sail suite..but you would look silly then!!But No rigging, No entanglement, just bring in your arms to shut the sail, still be able to paddle..But probably make a swim almost fatal!! and it was going so well too...never mind, Thanks everyone it has been interesting..

ruralweb
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Re: Kayak Sail Recomendation wtd

Post by ruralweb » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:32 pm

I think the risk of entanglement is very low tbh - the main issue for me is being able to depower it if the wind picks up. After using a windpaddle to sail up Loch Ness I sailed up the canal at the north end and the wind picked up dramatically, I could not get it down and very nearly went over the wier - with a flat earth I could have depowered it almost immediately.

Even if you intend to only use a sail in light winds you can get caught out if conditions change so practice taking it down in stronger winds than you plan to use it - at the end of the day if it all goes wrong you will only get wet when practicing.
Mal

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