Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?^

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tvcrider
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Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?^

Post by tvcrider » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:10 pm

Has anyone replaced their original P&H skeg slider with 'version 2' in a Scorpio?
The slider in my Scorpio LV has become rather tough to operate even with repeated lubrication.

It has been suggest to use a heat gun to remove the original slider assembly, but my concern is that it will damage the poly hull.

Any tips or suggestions would be most welcome.

Thank you, Joe
Kayaks: P&H Scorpio LV & Aries 150

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?

Post by MikeB » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:14 pm

Can't help with the specific query Joe, but what type of system is it? Wire - or the troublesome bungee and cord system, with a release catch on the slider knob?

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?

Post by tvcrider » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:39 pm

MikeB wrote:Can't help with the specific query Joe, but what type of system is it? Wire - or the troublesome bungee and cord system, with a release catch on the slider knob?
Mike,
It's the relatively new (since 2007?) bungee and cord system with the release catch on the slider knob. Mine is the first version of this system.
Kayaks: P&H Scorpio LV & Aries 150

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?

Post by MikeB » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:49 pm

Ok. Have you found the Almanac, and specifically this article on skeg repairs? http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/sk ... repair.htm

Towards the end of it there is a note referencing the Cetus / Scorpio and links to some fixes. P&H could well be worth contacting of course too. This is with regard to fettling the existing system and converting it to the later version of course, as distinct from taking the slider control out of the boat.

On that subject, again I guess P&H might be able to offer thoughts. The slider box must be bonded in somehow, but I've no idea how it's done in a plastic boat. It would be interesting to know, if only so I can include the knowledge in the repair article.

Mike.

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?

Post by Kevin B » Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:37 pm

i contacted P&H, because i bought my kayak second hand any repairs, upgrades etc werent covered.
Remember....Keep your paddles moist

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?

Post by nicholas » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:55 pm

My friend had his changed on his Scorpio.
He took it to p&h it cost him £40.
I have the new system in my Aries it is
Trouble free

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:02 pm

I changed my mark 1 slider to the mark 2 on my Delphin. You need to heat the existing slider with a mini blow torch to break the adhesive. Once you get it out you need to fill the existing hole through the hull for the tube that the cord runs in. Do this by melting a little scrap polyethylene with the blow torch. Then drill the new hole by putting the new slider in and poking a drill through the back hole to mark the back of the polyethelyne slider box. This is quite close to the existing hole which is why it needs filled in first. PM me and I can email you a link to full video instructions.

Douglas

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?

Post by seafreedom » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:32 pm

This comment isn't really going to help, but....

We had a Scorpio in our fleet. We had so much trouble with the skeg (including the replacement bits that P&H sent us) that I sold the boat off for not very much, with warnings to the purchaser. I felt that retro-fitting the MK2 would be difficult and time consuming whilst not providing much confidence.

I am a qualified Quality Engineer with over 30 years of manufacturing quality experience. It is my opinion that P&H have handled this issue badly. In the automotive industry, a defect like this would have warranted (on pain of action by the regulating bodies) a full service fix campaign or arguably a product recall as it has safety implications.

Pressure on P&H to assist is appropriate

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?

Post by stevewoolley » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:49 pm

As with all mechanical things, there will be a logical reason why your slider has stopped working, Joe:

It's possible that:
  • The wire slider rail has become bent
  • The wire has become badly scored (thus preventing the slider from moving smoothly over it)
  • The inside edges of the plastic slider have become so badly worn that it no longer is a tight fit over the wire
  • There may be some sand - or some other contaminant - trapped in the slider release mechanism
  • There is some kind of obstruction in the tube through which the Dyneema cord runs or the tube has become badly kinked
  • It might also be worth pulling the skeg blade out of the skeg box to ensure to ensure there is nothing preventing the skeg blade from rotating freely on the "hub"
Before you give-up on it completely, I suggest you try running some fine wire wool/steel wool along the length of the wire slider rail, just to take the surface off it. Give it a good squirt of silicone or teflon lube and exercise the slider along the wire a few times.

I've never experienced any problems with the Mk 1 slider on my Scorpio.

I keep it clean (rinsed with fresh water whenever possible) and a quick squirt of a silicone lubricant (or teflon, which is dryer than silicone) on a regular basis keeps it running smooth. Just this last week, I have adjusted the bungee to take-up a bit more tension on the skeg itself. I plan to replace the Dyneema over the winter months.

Hope you get it sorted out.


Steve
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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:25 pm

The prime reason only some Mk1 sliders were affected appears to be that the stainless steel slider bars had been cut from coils of stainless steel wire. The lengths that had been cut from inside the coil had a greater degree of bend than those cut from the outside of the coil and so were more prone to sticking. I have had no trouble with any of several Mk 2 sliders which have composite sliders which are completely straight.

Douglas

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?

Post by heybaz » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:03 pm

Our experience with an early Scorpio LV bought new was that my wife simply could not operate the slider due it it being incredibly stiff; I could just about manage to retract the skeg (having had to deploy it for her) provided we rafted up first.

P&H were helpful in that they sent a diagnostics sheet and several free replacement parts for us to replace - but to no avail.

Eventually I arranged to drop the boat at the factory where they replaced the slider box with the newer version (with composite slider rail) and reseated the foam bulkheads (which were leaking slightly) while I had a few days paddling in N Wales. They didn't make any charge for this service and the slider has worked perfectly ever since.

My thoughts are - based on friends & colleagues experiences as well as our own - that there were problems with the early sliders; Douglas's explanation sounds perfectly feasible and it does seem that the composite slider rail is the way forward. The dyneema line is a beggar to replace in the field though; my advice is to keep an eye on it and change it at a time of your choosing rather than half way through a wild camping trip...

Barry

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?^

Post by Mattyp » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:32 am

P&H will replace the skeg slider for you for £49 and that includes all the parts and labour! They offered to collect the kayak from a local dealer and deliver it back for no extra cost!

Hope that helps

M

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?^

Post by MikeB » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:53 pm

This may - or may not - be helpful - http://reenterandroll.com/?p=25 - this chap replaced the slider and skeg with the rather excellent Kajaksport one. Whether this would be practical on a plastic boat is another matter. Equally impractical would be returning it to P&H as I note the op lives in the US. Perhaps there is an importer who would deal with it though?

The K/sport slider seems, incidentally, to be what is used on Tiderace boats and I have to say it really is a superb system, and has been totally trouble free in the time I've had mine. My Nordkapp and Quest both had to have their systems fettled during the time I had them.

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?^

Post by rhysie » Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:34 am

My wife and I have 2 of the original early 2010 Cetus's in the clear carbon/Kevlar lay ups and our experiences with the skegs are totally different. My wife's Cetus came without a keel strip. Her skeg works perfectly and the only thing I do to it is lubricate the bar with silicon occasionally. My Cetus came with a factory fitted Kevlar tape keel strip. The extra resin around the skeg box due to the keel strip has made it a much tighter fit. The roller part of the skeg is very tight and really hard to do any mantainance on the skeg. On most P&H kayaks the skeg is removed by deploying the skeg to get slack on the cord and then pulling the skeg blade forward and then out. The extra resin in my skeg box makes this a 15 minute job as I slowly using extreme force pull my skeg blade out millimetre by millimetre. My slider bar was slightly bent and had score marks along its length. I damaged the skeg controller when one of my travel cradles broke while transporting my kayak and P&H were fantastic to deal with. They sent me replacement parts free of charge. I have ordered the new mark 2 skeg controller through the new P&H distributor in Australia and he has informed me that P&H have sent the parts to him at below cost. I am sorry to hear about heybazs' problems with P&H but I can only say that P&H (Pyrahna) have always give me excellent customer service. I think that with the new skeg control kit I won't have a problem again. I like the cord skeg idea and am hoping that it will give me trouble free use.

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?^

Post by heybaz » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:37 am

rhysie wrote:I am sorry to hear about heybazs' problems with P&H but I can only say that P&H (Pyrahna) have always give me excellent customer service.
I hope that I didn't give the impression that I was dissatisfied with the service we had from P&H Rhysie.

P&H responded promptly when I contacted them and posted us a diagnostics sheet and assorted replacement parts free of charge. When this didn't solve the problem they were happy enough to receive the boat and undertake the works described, again free of charge. The new (back then) design of skeg control is innovative and obviously had teething troubles which detailed pre-delivery / QA inspection either in the factory or by the retailer should have picked up - perhaps the same could be said about your keel strip?

That said, the service we received was absolutely fine and we are grateful for it.

Coincidentally I have a carbon kevlar Quest with a factory fitted keel strip; happy to say that I don't have the problem you describe and the old-school wire skeg control works perfectly. The centre where I used to work ran a fleet of RM Capellas with wire skeg controls which never gave problems except, despite constantly briefing clients & staff, from the occassional skeg-down landing kinking a cable (also easily fettled with good customer service from the team at P&H). Perhaps the new system would have better suited us - but would the rather flexible skegs used with the new system withstand typical centre use for long?

Cheers, Barry

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?^

Post by AllanC » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:24 pm

Hi all just to update, I've posted on the forum before regarding my Cetus skeg, and actually had a boat replaced because the skeg was so bad (boat had manufacturing defects too).
However my current boat has the mk1 slider and I've just priced it's replacement with the mk2 slider via Karitek, whom I bought the boat from, and it's currently £100.
AllanC

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?^

Post by tvcrider » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:39 pm

tvcrider wrote:Has anyone replaced their original P&H skeg slider with 'version 2' in a Scorpio?
The slider in my Scorpio LV has become rather tough to operate even with repeated lubrication.
It has been suggest to use a heat gun to remove the original slider assembly, but my concern is that it will damage the poly hull.
I successfully completed the replacement of the skeg slider on my Scorpio LV.

Items of note:
  1. I would like to thank Douglas Wilcox for his advice and the video link. It was instrumental in this effort.
  2. My P&H dealer provided the upgrade kit to me at no charge.
  3. I needed to acquire a heat gun, small butane torch and 7mm drill bit.
  4. I took it slow with the heat gun, so as not to overhead the hull. It took a bit longer than I expected to loosen the old slider box.
  5. I used a small flat piece of wood as a lever under the shaft of the flat bladed screwdriver to avoid marring the hull when I pried the old box out.
  6. I was told by P&H in the USA that welding the original hole closed was not required, but I did it anyway. My work was effective, but not pretty. It's the one step I would like to do over.
  7. I tried several different ways to mark the hull for drilling, including a Sharpie marker, but none was overly effective. I sort of did it 'blind' in the end.
  8. P&H uses Soudaflex at the factory to glue in the slider box. That product was not available, so I used the suggested alternative, 3M 5200 Marine adhesive. Apparently Soudaflex will cure in hours, but the standard 5200 can take up to a week. I did not know that. I initially let the 5200 cure for 24-hours and then removed the tape holding the new slider box in. It promptly fell out! I reapplied the 5200 and this time I let it cure for 7 days. I have been told that there is a quick curing version of 5200, but that also was not available locally.
  9. The skeg now works beautifully!
Kayaks: P&H Scorpio LV & Aries 150

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?^

Post by rhysie » Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:57 pm

Work has been pretty hectic for me the last couple of months but I finally found the the time to install the new skeg slider into my Cetus. While I had the skeg out I took to the extra resin in and around my skeg box with wet and dry sand paper. My skeg now moves freely on it's pivot and I'm very happy with the result. The Gen 2 slider is really smooth and is it easier to make small adjustments to the skeg deployment. I will finally get my Cetus back on the ocean tomorrow for real test but I'm pretty sure the skeg will now be smooth and trouble free.

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?

Post by MidwestPaddler » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:47 pm

Douglas Wilcox wrote:
Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:02 pm
I changed my mark 1 slider to the mark 2 on my Delphin. You need to heat the existing slider with a mini blow torch to break the adhesive. Once you get it out you need to fill the existing hole through the hull for the tube that the cord runs in. Do this by melting a little scrap polyethylene with the blow torch. Then drill the new hole by putting the new slider in and poking a drill through the back hole to mark the back of the polyethelyne slider box. This is quite close to the existing hole which is why it needs filled in first. PM me and I can email you a link to full video instructions.

Douglas
Hello:

I am new to this forum as I just located it when searching for advice on replacing a P&H skeg slider. As a new subscriber to the forum, it appears that I am not yet able to PM you (Douglas Wilcox) through the forum for the video instructions.

Are you able to post a link to the instructions or PM me? I am coming to this topic quite late so I hope that the info might still be available.

Thank you

John

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?^

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:31 pm

Hi John:

http://www.phseakayaks.com/skegSystem.php


The trickiest bit was actually welding plastic across the original hole for the skeg cord before drilling a new hole. I have since replaced another Mk1 slider with a Mk2 slider in a friend's Delphin. This time I just enlarged the original hole and made sure I used a decent amount of sealer all round the body of the slider when fitting it. However, being able to do this this depends on whether you have a thick or thin skeg cord tube in your boat.

On the above page there is a diagnostic form that you can fill in and send off for advice specific to your boat. I think it would be worth contacting P&H direct rather than through a dealer. P&H are generally pretty helpful when it comes to sorting these mk1 skeg problems. My friend and I got replacement MK2 sliders under warranty. P&H also sell MK2 upgrade kits with full instructions for about £55. Any boat with a Mk1 slider will be quite a few years old now. In England I think you have up to six years to have a faulty item repaired or replaced by the manufacturer. I suspect your boat may be over that age but if you haven't broken your slider by (for example) dropping the boat on it and it has just become too stiff to operate, I would be inclined to try and negotiate a reduction on the price of the upgrade kit. Unfortunately for P&H what looked like a good design failed because the steel rod had been cut from a large coil and many rods ended up with a slight curve. Ultimately many of the Mk1 sliders were not fit for purpose, but not all!! A friend has one of the very first Delphins, with a Mk1 slider and it still slides smoothly.

Good luck
Douglas

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Re: Suggestions for P&H Skeg slider replacement in Scorpio?^

Post by aquaspeleo » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:46 pm

Douglas Wilcox wrote: ↑Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:02 pm
I changed my mark 1 slider to the mark 2 on my Delphin. You need to heat the existing slider with a mini blow torch to break the adhesive. Once you get it out you need to fill the existing hole through the hull for the tube that the cord runs in. Do this by melting a little scrap polyethylene with the blow torch. Then drill the new hole by putting the new slider in and poking a drill through the back hole to mark the back of the polyethelyne slider box. This is quite close to the existing hole which is why it needs filled in first. PM me and I can email you a link to full video instructions.
I have just done the job using P&H's very useful video.
It takes a while to do and, unlike Douglas, you don't use the blowtorch to break the adhesive - I used my wife's hairdryer but keep it on a narrow setting so it blows within the slider and not onto the hull. It works but don't expect the old slider to be useable afterwards! You use the mini blowtorch to weld a wee bit of plastic into the old hole. It works!

Watch the video twice and it then happens like clockwork - a slow clock unlike the video because you will hit little problems which should be solvable if you're a bit DIY minded ....and I am no DIY expert.
I did notice the the new slider wasn't exactly a perfect fit for the old depression in the hull, but I just filled the slight gap with some more of the recommended Soudaflex sealant after I'd stuck the new one in place.
It was not the easiest job to do perfectly but with care it was a complete success and the new slider system is perfect and so very, very slick to use.

For your info I inspected my old Mark 1 slider after removal. It had developed a very oval hole round the steel rod, causing it to rock and then develop a huge amount of friction - hence the issue in my case.

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