Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Discuss equipment, technology, gadgets, repairs...
User avatar
norb
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:43 pm
Location: West coast of Scotland

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by norb » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:36 pm

If I go for paddling tide races or any rough condition I will have my mates with me and in that point electric pump is useless
Second if .. paddling solo or unsuported things can goes wrong .. in this case paddler should be know how to roll or more important how to re entry roll.
After re entry roll just padling to nearest eddy or calm water end empty the boat.
Electric pump in sea water will be first to go..
I will rather spend money and effort for petrol or diesel to training rescue and self rescue with my mates around me instead.
Someone mention Cowboy rescue before.. its good fun in harboe maybe but they called now ..Cabaret ?
Im particularly good swimmer and last time i get swim was was 4 weeks ago by Cardinal on Menai in full flow:)
I was wearing only T -shirt and self rescue take me about ...20 seconds with my hands pump.
If have to spend the money and time I will rather spend them for training instead for having a gadget
All the best
Norbert

Daker
Posts: 442
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Daker » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:44 pm

Each to their (highly opinionated) own.

pathbrae
Posts: 289
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:42 pm
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by pathbrae » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:33 am

After re entry roll just padling to nearest eddy or calm water end empty the boat.
Mmmmm that might be a lot easier said than done...........
So much sea - so little time to see it.

User avatar
Douglas Wilcox
Posts: 3533
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:31 pm
Location: Glasgow
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:06 am

More than half my paddling is on my own, I can roll and renter roll both sides. I have a custom bulkhead and am not tall so the cockpit volume is low. I wild swim about a km in the sea just about every day April till October. I have a hand pump BUT not only do I have an electric pump, I also have a paddle float!!

Douglas

seawolf856
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:29 pm
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:45 pm

I have been following this thread regarding electric bilge pumps for a while and my paddling buddy 'blueythe' is just about to take the plunge and start drilling!!
Following our recent progression into tide race paddling and hence lots of deep water self rescue and assisted rescue practice, it has become blatantly obvious that manual pumping out presents difficulties even with the luxury of having someone alongside.
Anyway, I am also going to fit an electric bilge pump but would like to direct a question to Douglas Wilcox about the merits of the RULE automatic pumps. There seems to be very little mention other than by Douglas about the automatic pumps. So what is the verdict on automatic pumps?
I am not talking about the pumps with built in sensors, float switches or magic eyes but the ones such as the RULE 25S-6WC which has the computerised circuitry which spins the pump every 20 seconds and if it senses resistance i.e. there is water in the intake, then it stays on and pumps the boat dry. I have seen elsewhere that Douglas has advised against the auto pumps with long delay times e.g. 2.5mins so I have taken that on board and found the short delay version. So - do these work?
The model I have shortlisted (25S-6WC) has a wire for a manual override switch. On the boats fitted with automatic pumps was the manual override switch fitted?

Comments on computerised automatic pumps please.

Allan Olesen
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:45 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Allan Olesen » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:36 pm

seawolf856 wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:45 pm
The model I have shortlisted (25S-6WC) has a wire for a manual override switch. On the boats fitted with automatic pumps was the manual override switch fitted?
Are you sure about that? I have an automatic Rule pump with 20 second interval, and I am 99% certain that it is a 25S-6WC. It only has 2 wires.

It is correct that some of the other automatic pumps have an override wire.

My experience is that when fully dry it will run for 0.5 seconds, 2 seconds or 5-10 seconds, somewhat randomly. I am not sure what decides the run time. Perhaps temperature or voltage.

Anyway, even though it runs for somewhat long time, it doesn't really drain the battery much. I have a 2600 mAh battery and a display showing charge in %. After a full day with the pump on in the wintertime, the battery usually has lost 10-20% of its charge.

In the winter, the pump tends to switch off before it is finished draining the cockpit. Then after 20 seconds it will continue, run some time and then switch off again. Eventually, it will get the job done. I have not seen this behaviour in the summertime, so I guess I just bought my battery to cheaply.

The pump is very silent. In the workshop it sounds noisy, but on the water it is often not detectable over the sounds from wind and waves.

Allan Olesen
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:45 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Allan Olesen » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:36 pm

seawolf856 wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:45 pm
The model I have shortlisted (25S-6WC) has a wire for a manual override switch. On the boats fitted with automatic pumps was the manual override switch fitted?
Are you sure about that? I have an automatic Rule pump with 20 second interval, and I am 99% certain that it is a 25S-6WC. It only has 2 wires.

It is correct that some of the other automatic pumps have an override wire.

My experience is that when fully dry it will run for 0.5 seconds, 2 seconds or 5-10 seconds, somewhat randomly. I am not sure what decides the run time. Perhaps temperature or voltage.

Anyway, even though it runs for somewhat long time, it doesn't really drain the battery much. I have a 2600 mAh battery and a display showing charge in %. After a full day with the pump on in the wintertime, the battery usually has lost 10-20% of its charge.

In the winter, the pump tends to switch off before it is finished draining the cockpit. Then after 20 seconds it will continue, run some time and then switch off again. Eventually, it will get the job done. I have not seen this behaviour in the summertime, so I guess I just bought my battery too cheaply.

The pump is very silent. In the workshop it sounds noisy, but on the water it is often not detectable over the sounds from wind and waves.

seawolf856
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:29 pm
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:30 am

Allan, thanks for the reply. I read about the manual override wire on one of the (dozens of) pages I've looked at trying to sort the good, bad and ugly in bilge pumps. I will definitely look again now that I have an actual user calling this into question.
I really appreciate your detailed input as nobody else seems to be posting about automatic pumps - they seem the ideal solution to me.

Just one more small question if you (or anybody else) can answer it from experience - when the vertical type RULE pumps are installed say in the lowest part of the cockpit i.e. typically behind the seat, how much water is left in the bottom of the boat after the pump switches off. Because these bilge pumps are designed for below deck use in bigger craft and NOT specifically designed for kayaks, it would appear that there could be an amount of water left in the boat. Can somebody with a RULE vertical pump fitted to their kayak tell me their experience. Do you still have to manually pump out the last bits??

User avatar
PhilAyr
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:51 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by PhilAyr » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:45 am

Some paddlers find that the intermittent whirring sound of the automatic pump is an annoying distraction to their paddling. Others say that they have become used to it.
Just one more small question if you (or anybody else) can answer it from experience - when the vertical type RULE pumps are installed say in the lowest part of the cockpit i.e. typically behind the seat, how much water is left in the bottom of the boat after the pump switches off. Because these bilge pumps are designed for below deck use in bigger craft and NOT specifically designed for kayaks, it would appear that there could be an amount of water left in the boat. Can somebody with a RULE vertical pump fitted to their kayak tell me their experience. Do you still have to manually pump out the last bits??
Depending on the installation less than one inch of water is left. Certainly not enough to warrant the use of a hand pump.

Regards,

Phil

sleepyfolk
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:07 pm

My non whirring auto pump goes down to about an inch in auto mode, then I can flick it into manual to get it down to the last few mm if I want.
Not sure I saw the point in having one that whirs every minute or so and looks for water, though I may have missed the point it in your posts! Surely it just depletes a bit of power and spoils the peace and quiet. Mine's an auto whale and one of the other posters had a rule with a water witch switch that looked really good as well

seawolf856
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:29 pm
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:19 pm

Thanks guys, nice to hear good stuff about auto pumps being used in anger. I've looked at the auto whale and I've seen the pictures of the install - very impressive. I like the idea of the manual override too but if I was confident that I could successfully fit a switch, I would probably just opt for a non auto pump in the first place. I do like a nice peaceful paddle but the times when there is absolutely no sound at all from the sea and wind are very few and far between. I don't think pump noise during the auto check cycle will be an issue for me.
Once again thanks for the detailed and informative replies.

Allan Olesen
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:45 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Allan Olesen » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:16 am

My experience with the automatic Rule pump is also a little less than an inch. Enough to irritate me, but not enough to bother with the manual pump.

I have been thinking about padding the floor of the kayak in all the places where my legs are not in contact with the floor anyway. The padding would include drain channels towards the pump, and towards a spot for manual pumping in front of the seat. This way I would be able to pump from a lower point than the remaining kayak floor. This should also make manual pumping faster.

seawolf856
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:29 pm
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:26 pm

Spot on Allan, you have tapped right into my psyche. 'Irritated' is exactly what I would feel with an inch or more of water left sloshing around in the boat. I know I'm probably going to come in for some flack here as I could easily paddle with that amount of water left in the boat and it is of course a whole lot better (and more stable) than a half full cockpit, and far preferable to using a manual pump, but all the same I would still be irritated. I am really glad we are getting down to the details here because I am going to fit a electric pump and your practical experience is invaluable.

User avatar
PhilAyr
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:51 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by PhilAyr » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:14 pm

seawolf856 wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:26 pm
Spot on Allan, you have tapped right into my psyche. 'Irritated' is exactly what I would feel with an inch or more of water left sloshing around in the boat. I know I'm probably going to come in for some flack here as I could easily paddle with that amount of water left in the boat and it is of course a whole lot better (and more stable) than a half full cockpit, and far preferable to using a manual pump, but all the same I would still be irritated. I am really glad we are getting down to the details here because I am going to fit a electric pump and your practical experience is invaluable.

Hang on, and with all due respect, are we not getting a we bit carried away !

I thought this was all about safety and the main reason for an electric pump was to empty the boat after a capsize as quickly and effectively as possible and not worry about a very small amount of water left behind. It shouldn't make any difference to your kayak's stability. It's likely that this amount of water could be brought in with your boots after entering the cockpit a couple of times. It's such a small amount I don't think a hand pump would get rid of it. A sponge would probably do a better job !

Regards

Phil

Allan Olesen
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:45 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Allan Olesen » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:31 am

PhilAyr wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:14 pm
It's likely that this amount of water could be brought in with your boots after entering the cockpit a couple of times. It's such a small amount I don't think a hand pump would get rid of it. A sponge would probably do a better job !
I would estimate the remaining amount of water to approx. 10 liter. Quite some boots...

User avatar
PhilAyr
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:51 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by PhilAyr » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:11 am

It all depends on where you fit the pump and on how close it is to the bottom of the hull. In my case the remaining amount is no where near 10 ltrs.

Also make sure your boots are zipped up properly especially if you have big feet !! ;-)

Regards

Phil

Allan Olesen
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:45 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Allan Olesen » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:29 am

PhilAyr wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:11 am
It all depends on where you fit the pump and on how close it is to the bottom of the hull.
My pump stands directly on the bottom of the hull, strapped down towards the bottom with bungee cords.

The bottom has a slight V shape. To avoid that the pump edges rides on this V and leaves a gap below, I have offset the pump ½ diameter to the side so the hull centre line is at a tangent to the pump body. This means that when I edge the kayak slightly, the water will be concentrated in the side of the kayak where the pump is placed.

So my pump is placed optimally.

User avatar
Douglas Wilcox
Posts: 3533
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:31 pm
Location: Glasgow
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:18 pm

I'm totally with Phil. An electric pump is for self rescue when you are out your boat, a situation when getting safely back to shore takes precedence over a wet bum. The water will be rough before I fall in so it is unlikely I will be able to faff with a hand pump or a sponge. In rough water the boat will be pitching up and down so the water in the boat will slosh about fore and aft and so the pump will never empty it all. So what???? I can easily paddle a boat with 10l sloshing about in rough water. I find it difficult to to paddle a boat with 80+l in the cockpit in calm never mind rough water.

Douglas

User avatar
Douglas Wilcox
Posts: 3533
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:31 pm
Location: Glasgow
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:27 pm

To answer seawolf, I have pumps fitted in 4 kayaks. Two are the automatic Rule 500GPH PWC pumps that spin up every 20 secs. One is a Rule 500 GPH controlled by a remote control switch, which Phil has explained elsewhere on the forum. The last is an 1100GPH Rule pump controlled by an air switch which I have detailed elsewhere on the forum.

Douglas

Allan Olesen
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:45 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Allan Olesen » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:52 pm

Douglas Wilcox wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:18 pm
I'm totally with Phil. An electric pump is for self rescue when you are out your boat, a situation when getting safely back to shore takes precedence over a wet bum. The water will be rough before I fall in so it is unlikely I will be able to faff with a hand pump or a sponge. In rough water the boat will be pitching up and down so the water in the boat will slosh about fore and aft and so the pump will never empty it all. So what???? I can easily paddle a boat with 10l sloshing about in rough water. I find it difficult to to paddle a boat with 80+l in the cockpit in calm never mind rough water.

Douglas
You are objecting to something I have never written.

I have described the 10 liter of water as "annoying but not enough to bother pumping manually". That is very much in line with your description.

seawolf856
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:29 pm
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:33 pm

OK let's all calm down. My fault entirely for being 'irritated' by an inch of water - sorry about that. However just to emphasise that I fully comprehend the circumstances that will have filled my boat in the first place and that is exactly why I've bothered to take heed of Douglas, Phil and all others who have shared their advice on this particularly interesting post. The last thing that I'm going to be bothered about when the boat is bucking like a bronco is the last 10l of water. I just hope my automatic pump works so I can live to fight another day.

User avatar
Douglas Wilcox
Posts: 3533
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:31 pm
Location: Glasgow
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:27 pm

Good luck with the fitting seawolf. Drilling the big hole for the pump outlet is a tense moment but having fitted pumps to a number of boats it does get easier after the first time.

Allan I was not objecting to anything you said. Indeed on one of my boats with the pump fitted behind the seat I stuck two foam blocks onto the bottom of the hull either side of it to assist draining when the boat is pulled bow first up the beach.

Phil is the master of standing some distance from his boat and waiting till a bystander comes up to peer into the cockpit before he triggers the pump with his remote radio switch. It never fails to amuse (us)!

Douglas :o)

Allan Olesen
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:45 am
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by Allan Olesen » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:52 am

Douglas Wilcox wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:27 pm
Good luck with the fitting seawolf. Drilling the big hole for the pump outlet is a tense moment but having fitted pumps to a number of boats it does get easier after the first time.
I had two worries when I did it:
1. The hole ending up in the wrong position on the inside of the kayak when drilling from the outside.
2. The deck being weakened too much.

For #1, I made a big "caliper" out of wood so I could mark up the hole position on the inside and then use the caliper to transfer it to the outside.

For #2, I reinforced the deck around the hole with an 8x8 cm sheet of fibreglass and epoxy prior to drilling the hole. The added material on both sides of the hole will more or less be equal to the material which is missing in the hole.

seawolf856
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:29 pm
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:23 am

I own a bog standard plastic boat so drilling holes in it doesn't really worry me. I will do a test run of the pump assembly outside of the boat before fitting it and if it all goes wrong I will just fill the hole with a blank bulkhead connector and go back to paddling in flat calm conditions (he-he). There's plenty of room behind the cockpit on my boat (Its not a Delphin) but that is VERY good advice about making sure the hole actually ends up the right side of the cockpit bulkhead!
I also see the electric pump as a training aid as it will make rolling and rescue practice a much less time consuming business and enable that practice to be undertaken comfortably in more demanding conditions. I will also be able to give more of my time as a volunteer for wet exit and rescue demo's during club safety days.
Keep the posts coming, anyone with any input about batteries (Makes, model numbers, ratings etc) would be good.

sleepyfolk
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:03 pm

As far as make goes I'm a fan of the little yuasa batteries, readily available at maplins, or online, just make sure you get it from an authorised dealer or it'll be fake. Size is up to you really, general consensus seems to be from 1.2ah which I think is a bit small to my massive battery which I use for charging other kit, I guess 2 or 3ah means you wouldn't have to bother charging it too often, at that size they really don't weigh very much.
I say Yuasa because we use them at work for backpacks and they seem to have a good lifespan even with deep discharge cycles, cheaper rubbish may not last as long although there will likely be someone on here that paid 50p for one 20 years ago and it's still going strong

seawolf856
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:29 pm
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:45 am

Thanks Sleepyfolk, my dad used Yuasa batteries for years on his golf buggy and swore by them. There is a Maplin and an authorised Yuasa dealer nearby so I can get the genuine article.
I'm not worried about the weight as long as I can find a way to fix it down firmly. I'll have to stash my Helinox chair somewhere else if I put a whopping battery in my day hatch so I'll probably go for a smaller 1.2Ah at first and see how it goes, but I take on board your point about charging.

seawolf856
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:29 pm
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:35 pm

Quick update - in case anybody is interested!

After a lot of faffing about and endless research, I now have all of the components to attempt the installation of my first electric bilge pump.
There were many hiccups, technical conundrums and sleepless nights just to get to this point, but with some much appreciated help from my paddling buddy, including hours of detailed debates in the pub, I have gathered the following bits:

Whale SuperSub 650 automatic pump, including integral NRV.
Tracer (LiPo) battery 12v 10ah - small and powerful
19mm skin fitting
19mm, thin wall (1.5mm) clear PVC hose
5amp inline (splash proof) fuse holder.

You will notice there is NO SWITCH. This is because I am going to try the fully automatic approach first - because the switch was doing my head in.
The intent is to fix the pump behind the seat by cable tying it to the foam block under the seat. First trials of this method seem to look promising with the pump tucked nicely out of the way and holding very firmly in place. I am using no metal fasteners, Velcro or glue, which could rot or come loose, I can also take the pump out quickly if I need to without too much trouble.
The hose I have chosen is a bit thin walled but the option is using 3mm wall hose, which I have found very difficult to fit in the space. This may have to be upgraded - stay tuned!
I am passing the pump wires through the rear cockpit bulkhead into the day hatch. I have got some Geocel Marine Silicone Rubber sealant to squeeze into the wire holes to seal them.
Once in the relatively dry environment of my day hatch, the pump wires will then be joined (and sealed with heat shrink sleeves) to a plug which will connect straight into my battery. I am fitting a 5amp inline fuse in the live wire. The fuse is housed in a splash proof case. The pump has an override wire (in case I need to install a manual switch in the future), this wire will be passed into the day hatch but will not be connected for now.
Now here's the shocking bit - Once I plug the connector to the battery, my pump will be permanently powered up and on standby in auto mode. I then simply plan to put the battery, fuse holder and excess wiring into a small dry bag (folded over loads of times) and then just leave it in the dry hatch. I may decide to fasten the dry bag down with Velcro in the future but the plan for now is just to wedge it in amongst my other stuff, butty bag, cag, Helinox seat bag etc so it doesn't rattle around.

So, there we are. I'm paddling tonight, Saturday and Sunday so its not going to get done until next week. Stay tuned and I'll keep you posted.

sleepyfolk
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:21 pm

Photos when you're done then!

seawolf856
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:29 pm
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by seawolf856 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:06 pm

Hi sleepyfolk, thanks for staying in touch on this post.
Already hit my first dry run hitch. The thin wall tube is far too flimsy and kinks when trying to get the tight bend behind the seat.
However I've found a really good looking alternative, believe it or not from B&Q. I've also got an in line NRV on order from Whale - the NRV which is integral to the pump screws directly onto the outlet and is causing the space issues.
I promise to try and post some photos when I'm done. I was paddling both days this weekend off the Anglesey coast so I didn't manage to get any further with it.

sleepyfolk
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Fitting Bilge Pump to Delphin 155

Post by sleepyfolk » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:39 pm

That's why my NRV ended up going through the bulkhead, just not enough space in there!

Post Reply