Landing fees

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Mark R
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Landing fees

Post by Mark R »

Charged by all manner of islands in England and Wales.

What (if anything) is the legality of them?
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PeterG
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Re: Landing fees

Post by PeterG »

Compare and contrast the Maid of the Forth http://www.maidoftheforth.co.uk/cruises.php?id=17who collect a 'landing fee' for Inchcolm and Historic Scotland that only charge an 'Admission fee' to the Abbey on Inchcolm http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/pro ... lm%20Abbey. Me thinks that landing fee might be a very vague concept.

I imagine that English islands with a public footpath, road, byway etc (are there any?) could not charge for access to that footpath any more than anyone in Scotland could charge for access to land itself rather than a privately owned historic monument.

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Voodoo
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Re: Landing fees

Post by Voodoo »

I have allways seen landing fees directed at larger boats that require a slipway to launch and by nature owners will charge anyone they can to use their slipway, which if I am getting a service I dont mind i.e. my car gets parking for the day or longer if agreed,

However if you meen that when you pull up on to a shore with natural beach or shore line and there someone there looking money, they I think I would decline but purely since what are they providing and or what right have they to charge?

however I am not the easyest person to get money off when it comes to acess

I know thats not answered the question more just putting across my understanding
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Scots_Charles_River
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Re: Landing fees

Post by Scots_Charles_River »

The Lake if Menteith landing fee has not been enforced when I landed there. The boatman says it was because we landed, we said we didn't take the boat over ! We had paddled.

Under the SOAC Access Code, I think inland water can only be access fee applicable if there was charges before 2006.

I think in the UK a 'Harbour Fee' may be charged to kayakers but obviously just landing outside the harbour walls be free but not accessable.

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Re: Landing fees

Post by Chris Bolton »

A bit of speculation, so if anyone knows better, please challenge, but my understanding is that below MHWS is Crown property and landing on the beach is free. Above MHWS the land belongs to somebody and they have a right to charge you for using it (or to deny use).

Further to that, harbour authorities established by Act of Parliament have the right to control the area they have legal jurisdiction over. Also, Crown Estates charge for any development of the sea bed (ie, up to MHWS), certainly for yacht moorings and fish farms, so probably also for piers and slipways. Since the developer is paying Crown Estates, they may well have the right to charge users.

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Re: Landing fees

Post by PeterC »

Re Inchcolm; some thirty years or so ago the then (NTS) custodian of the abbey attempted to collect landing fees from everyone landing on the island. If I remember correctly this became an access issue through the SCA and sea kayakers were advised not to pay unless they were going above MHWS. When I visited we were asked for the fee, which we refused as our intention was not to go above MHWS. Of course after lunch we sought out the custodian so that we could pay to visit the abbey! (Point made)

More generally re GB...

As I understand it there are two issues: 1, The foreshore 'generally' belongs to the 'Crown' not to the landowner above MHWS, however there are obviusley local exceptions to this. Secondly, I believe that there is something about 'seafarers' being able to 'seek shelter and safety' when necessary without obligation or hindrance.

Peter
edit: Chris got there first but I'll leave my reply as is.

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Landing fees

Post by Douglas Wilcox »

Image

Image

More here.

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Re: Landing fees

Post by AllanC »

Hi Douglas,
There was another sign at that site in the summer, fastened to one of the wooden rubbing strips on the old pier, that was explicitly a charge for landing, the same as the one in your first photo here:
http://seakayakphoto.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... te-at.html

It was there the day Andy Murray lost Wimbledon, is that sign still there?

Allan C.

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Re: Landing fees

Post by MarkEb »

This all made me wonder about whether the rambling rights could be applied to a beach (they can't). I thought I maybe able to argue that as long as my kayak was below MHWS then my act of walking was simply one of rambling which I had a legal right to do. A little research revealed that this act doesn't apply to beaches but could:

"The CROW Act does not provide for access to beaches and the foreshore but it does give the Secretary of State powers to extend the statutory right of access to all or part of the foreshore and land adjacent to it. Parliament will be required to approve this extension, which has been recommended by the Countryside Agency."

Maybe we should be lobbying our MP's, on safety grounds if nothing else to provide us with a right of access. As already mentioned, this might be already covered by maritime law but I don't know anything about that.

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Re: Landing fees

Post by Douglas Wilcox »

Hi Allan the sign on the pier had gone by November. I reported the signs to Louise Kirk the North Ayrshire access officer. She is attempting to contact PYPT the island's owners.

The PYPT is a registered charity in Scotland but they are overdue with their 2011 annual return

Just to be clear, the Little Cumbrae is in Scotland and the Scottish legal situation is different to that in England.

Douglas

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Taran Tyla
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Re: Landing fees

Post by Taran Tyla »

Theres a landing fee at Porthclais in Pembrokeshire that apparently applies to kayakers? Never paid though, evan pitched the tents there one night :D

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Re: Landing fees

Post by Ceegee »

I once had this approaching a small slip. I asked if the kids swimming nearby were being charged for going into the water? The answer was no, so I exited in 8" in water, hoiked the kayak on my shoulder and walked up the slip without paying - simple ;-)
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Re: Landing fees

Post by Stoney »

Taran, I'm pretty sure Porthclais is only a launching fee! So paddle in (as you did) and I think you're ok.
There are CCTV cameras though! Crazy

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Re: Landing fees

Post by Kayaks'N'Beer »

Douglas Wilcox wrote:Image

That's the right idea, Douglas. Next time I'm there I'ma pee on that sign too! :)

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Jim
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Re: Landing fees

Post by Jim »

My understanding is that Crown estates owns the foreshore between MHWS and MLWS for most of the UK - a few areas reputedly are privately owned. However the day to administration of the foreshore may well be delegated to the local authority where they are responsible for the part of the shore above MHWS.

I seem to recall a conversation with a coastal warden in England with such delegated responsibility who had been having problems with cocklers and had eventually had a showdown meeting with them. After a bit of debate the local authority were able to prove that they had the responsibility for the access and the right to insist on charging a license fee for the cocklers to operate on this land. The cocklers then predictably pointed out that Crown Estate only extended to MLWS as defined on the OS map, and that they could legally collect cockles on the few days each year when the tide was below MLWS. The warden agreed with this and invited them put their theory into practise, noting that if they wanted to cross the beach he controlled to get to the bit below MLWS they would need to pay for a license anyway.
I should at this point note that the beach in question is used as a public car park, usually free in winter with a small charge in summer, and with other businesses (ice cream vans etc.) presumably paying a license fee to be able to ply their trade. The beach is used in several different ways and is zoned for different sports - registration and proof of insurance is required but as far as I know this is free for non-commercial users. The council position was not really one of wanting to get money out of the cocklers, more of stopping them driving all over their neatly organised beach in 4x4s terrorising the general public, not to mention the questionable ethics and H&S procedures employed by some of the cocklers who may have effectively been using slave labour - this was very close in time to the incident in the Solway....

Years ago (shall I dig out my logbook?), I think early 90's, we were clearly one of the first groups of sea kayaks to land on Flat Holm because the lad who came down to the beach to meet us (not the warden, a summer intern I think) was unsure what he was supposed to do - they normally charged a landing fee for boats landing around the corner at their jetty and offloading tourists or school groups and he wasn't sure what he was supposed to charge us to land on the beach, but couldn't bring himself to charge us full whack. Don't know what the current situation is but wonder if Mark's recent blog entry is related to the question?

As for legality of landing fees, I really don't know. Something at the back of mind agrees with the notion that mariners have international rights to seek shelter in emergency situations, however I am fairly sure that doesn't exclude them from immigration control.

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Re: Landing fees

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atakd
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Re: Landing fees

Post by atakd »

Kayaks'N'Beer wrote:
Douglas Wilcox wrote:Image

That's the right idea, Douglas. Next time I'm there I'ma pee on that sign too! :)

Protesting is all very well but some of us like to have lunch there, you know.

Image
Andy

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Re: Landing fees

Post by Douglas Wilcox »

My dear Andy, I humbly apologise, I wee-ed right where you lit your wee fire. If you develop any of the following symptoms, please see your doctor without delay......

This post has been truncated as it exceeds server limits. Please see you administrator for support.

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Mark R
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Re: Landing fees

Post by Mark R »

English and Welsh Islands like Ramsey, Skomer, Flat Holm, Steep Holm, Brownsea all ask you to pay to step ashore.

Can they actually do that, or not?
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Re: Landing fees

Post by nickcrowhurst »

Mark R wrote:Can they actually do that, or not?
To clarify the access issue at Looe Island, South Cornwall, I went to the Land Registry office at Crownhill, Plymouth, and found that the landowner of the island also owned the foreshore, all the way down to Low Water Springs. I suspect that this would enable charging to land, although the current landowner uses this ownership to deny landings on the foreshore, not to charge for them. (There are commercial trips to the island) I suggest that Land Registry enquiries would be a good start in the investigation of the legal situation at each island.
Nick.

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