Angmagssalik - new start?^

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Greenlandpaddler
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Angmagssalik - new start?^

Post by Greenlandpaddler » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:26 pm

Thought I would start a new thread - I would like to try and keep this design alive if at all possible (not necessarily exactly the same as the original in it's various guises over the years) as I have not come across any S&G designs currently available that comes close to the sheer beauty of this kayak.

Anyone got any ideas how we might be able to get hold of any plans or drawings to start making them or something very, very similar again?

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al27
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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by al27 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:57 pm

Vaguely remember that Aled's got a set of offsets...

And have just read back through the other thread, where he says he does...

Aled?

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Aled » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:44 am

Yes, I still have the Granta Angmagssalik survey as an Excel file - pm me for a copy
I recall someone had a Carlson hulls file they created...

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Greenlandpaddler » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:44 am

Thanks Aled - PM sent

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mick allen
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Angmagssalik - alternate ideas

Post by mick allen » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:37 pm

There probably are a few of us who have schematically or otherwise documented the essential form of that kayak (ie Aled has offsets). And while it might be of historical worth to have original plan copies preserved at some responsible repository, I think that a direct replication might have some issues today – at least for people who paddle with others:

The first (physical) issue that I see, is the extremely fine/sharp bow and stern – from the Kayel/Granta details, the ends are only 20mm (about 3/4 inch) wide by approx 30mm ( 1 ¼ in) in height. This raises the spectre of a stabbing machine - indeed there is a reference in early posts on this forum about one iteration aptly named “The Spear” – but even the original Angmagsalik fjord kayaks and many others were very sharp as well as many modern Greenland derivatives have similar sharp ends. I’ve had a few minor bruises from sharp ends of other kayaks but I’m not sure what the answer is here – it’s some form of issue in any case.

A schematic of a panel deck Angmagsalik version with the sharp bow and stern:
Image

To my eye the tortured deck version is more dramatic with possibly more footroom than the sharply peaked and angled panel version - but the second issue of torturing ply to these curvatures (as well as making pre-planned cockpit panel intersections) presents clamping and forming challenges even for the most experienced builders.

Schematic of the tortured ply version with sharp bow/stern:
Image

And because this is or should be a tight fitting kayak, thirdly one could see a necessity for multiple versions for differing body types as well as some providing larger cockpit derivatives.

Fourthly, although narrow, I guess one has to recognize that this boat, with such long overhangs, has a shorter hull than would be apparent with disadvantages of having long low lever arms sticking out horizontally at each end: the shortish main hull may have a fair amount of movement in waves where the low ends annoyingly engage the water unnecessarily. The contrast of low rear deck vs high front deck or sternum cracking front deckpeak type, probably would hinder forward body bending while rearward movement may be quite good. Summing up, the original just might be more of a curiousity at present. The fact that impressive voyages have been undertaken probably is more a testament to the skill and forbearance of the paddlers and gear carrying assistants rather than the features of the boat. As with most low volume skin boats, one sure wouldn’t want to have to solo reenter away from shore – especially if loaded.

So a replica could be raised from good offsets and panel takeoffs from an existing kayak, but the overriding issue is that some person took the time to derive those offsets and panel dimensions (despite present template status). In this case, the specific design is from a designer in the UK named Ken Littledyke. Regardless if one derives different plan approaches to evade copyright, it is really someone’s hard work – and therefore actual replication steps should initially have the written blessing or involvement of his heirs .

However a related derivative could be raised by others in the same manner as the original was derived from S and E Greenland types: say a differing planform, cross-sections from historic S or E Greenland examples, sharper end recurves to accommodate larger cross-section bow/stern blocks, different internal volumes and loading, completely differing deck design and treatment, and a coordinated panel approach to design the parts into an integrated whole. . .

And if one enjoyed curiousities and confronting some of the various issues presented – here’s three schematic (only & only for interest) examples of one approach where:
1) A more straight forward stitch and glue building process would be used, using epoxy, eliminating sheer clamps and other irrelevant framing around the cockpit..
2) A lower segmented deck allows relatively easy building and better access (no framing – only padding where desired) and possibly comfort. Flexibility of simple lessening segment widths to allow differing ckpt heights – and varied panel lengths to maybe vary ckpt size:

schematic Anglmagssalik ver1 lowered deck :
Image

3) Flat front bow panels, and sitting panel, utilized as a design acknowledgement to the original lengthwise panel piecing.
4) Emphasized recurves of the bow and stern stem to somewhat the same purpose (reference) but continuing the slight recurve in repetition in all directions to splay out the panels to a much higher cross section blunt ‘ram’ versus that of a stabbing ‘spear’. This of course is a personal consideration (but I sure dislike and suspect those round balls stuck on the ends of some kayaks and shells that appear like a last minute afterthought) :

schematic Anglmagssalik ver1 hideck:
Image

5) bow block panelizations that coordinate to the rest of the assemblage.
6) Also another derivation:

schematic Anglmagssalik ver2 hideck:
Image

For reference, as much of the shaping is angular- instead of Angmagssalik , I’d call the approach Anglmagssalik.

**

Anyway, some alternate ideas. If a replica is to be raised, acceptable recognition needs to be given to Ken Littledyke or his heirs.
mick
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Mikebelluk
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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Mikebelluk » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:45 am

Image

Someone in Liverpool [AR] has one of these Granther boats, reported stolen but recovered a couple of years ago. Maybe he could provide some more info if he reads this forum?

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Greenlandpaddler » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:05 pm

Mick Allen - some excellent points raised and love the images! Truly a gorgeous look!! The further complication on "ownership" of the Angmagssalik is that the design was sold to Ottersports of the USA I since discovered just to muddy the water even more. Over the last few weeks I have been searching for S&G plans for the E or S style Greenland kayak but so far have not come up with anything - if the Angmagssalik cannot be reproduced without potential legal issues then there seems to be a gap in what is available today.

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Mikebelluk
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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Mikebelluk » Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:39 am

Mike have a look at
http://www.paddlinglight.com/kayak-and-canoe-plans/
Bryan Hansel has made some plans available for free downloads that may help with what you are looking for.

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Aled » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:22 pm

UK Law regarding Design Rights:
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/d-basicfacts.pdf Clear overview of the Law regarding Registering Designs and Design Rights
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/part/III Some small print and legal jargon
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/ Home of the UK Intellectual Property Office

In the EU:
http://oami.europa.eu/en/design/pdf/reg2002_6.pdf See page 7, Community Design

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Greenlandpaddler » Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:59 pm

Thanks Aled-only time for a quick scan so far but Design rights seems to have a maximum duration of 25 years in UK and EU law.

I agree it is only right and proper that reference to Ken is maintained if anyone can produce commercial plans to allow production of this fabulous kayak - probably with the modified fore deck, although I have paddled one with the Granta original the multi panelled or fully rounded is more pleasing to the eye.

My original hope was to somehow get plans made available so we can continue to build the Angmagssalik - so far I have not seen anything that seems to make this impossible although issues have been raised as to the risk of having such a pointed bow. I paddle a Tahe Greenland and it also has a very elongated bow section as noted previously. I have the HULLS software but as yet have no idea how to use it!!

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Yellerbelly » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:07 am

Greenlandpaddler,
If an east Greenland design is what you are looking for, Björn Thomasson's Black Pearl is made by Petrus Kayaks in plywood. Not sure whether they sell the plans or just make them in their workshop.
I remember seeing a photo blog of a stitch and glue east Greenland design somewhere but cannot find it again. It had the reverse shear line and concave cutwaters of Mike's images above. Might be worth putting a post on the Kayak Building Forum to see if anyone else has that link.
. . . Ben

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mick allen
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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by mick allen » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:23 am

The tortured deck kayak Mikebelluk showed has another cockpit treatment that I hadn’t seen before – which maybe is further inference that this area was difficult to resolve with that deck. I surmise that is the reason for the more panelized front deck of the Mk2 version. Seems to look like this:
Image

Aled also sent me his offset file – using it as a strong guide or like an underlay, semi-faired lines (there are some very awkward areas for panel development . . . ) were redrawn in the close regions of the offsets to derive the following schematic. I didn’t ask, but I believe it is of the tortured deck version, plus these offsets show a much gentler cockpit angle than some of the other pictures that I’ve seen:
Image

And here’s an interesting quick pic showing an original Angmagssalik’s recurved ends:
Image

As offsets have been saved and as pictures of the boat still exist, documentation of the boat has been preserved to at least some degree for all to peruse. As an initial guide, it is probably more respectful to the designer to try and find out what the present status is. I see an old post on the CLC board by Peter Littledyke that refers to Ken passing away in 1998. That’s a sign-in board like this one and therefore possibly the moderator would allow an email to be sent.
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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Gylen » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:47 am

Hmmm.
Well, If Ken Littledyke is gone, and Granta are gone, the question is who (if anyone) has copyright to the design? Isn't there some UK register of copyrights?
I seem to remember that copyright on written material is valid for 25 years, but can be extended.
Anyway, I have an Angmagssalik, built about 1980, and just gave her an overhaul, as she hasn't been used for many years. So, a few notes.
First, the design dates back to sea canoeing pre-history, and is rather out on a limb. I built mine with the idea of using her for a fast dayboat, rather than an expedition boat (in the sense of carrying heavy loads over long distances), and she did very well.
As she sits fairly low in the water, the waterline length is pretty good, and the long, thin ends act as wavecutters - she doesn't waste time going over waves - and the narrow beam/flaring topsides make her a bit tippy.
The cockpit construction for the curved deck is quite neat, and avoids too much complex woodwork. Immediately forward of the cockpit is a curved beam (slightly peaked on the upper surface). The original was ply, but I laminated one from oak.
From the aft end of the cockpit, two pieces of 3/8" ply form the deck on either side of the coaming, starting off as almost full width aft, but ending up about 3" either side of centre forward, These are set into the aft face of the beam, and rise from a butt strap aft, and run in a nominal straight line, but curve slightly to meet the curved beam.
The outer edge is bevelled to take the 3mm foredeck panel, which is glued to it, to the beam, and to the inwale, with the gunwale reinforced by glass tape. The panel is roughly triangular, but with a tongue running aft as described.
I cannot remember these giving any problem, and the result looks reasonable. The coaming upstand was pre-formed from 6mm ply, glued to the 3/8" deck pieces, and the bead was 3/8" square; for a new build, I'd say this would be the fiddly bit, rather than the deck, as the coaming has a slight twist..
Mine had a few tweeks, to suit the planned use - a footrest, deck cords, and an aft compartment with a VCP hatch. Also, foam knee grips, which made her easy to role.

Gylen.

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PeterG
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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by PeterG » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:37 pm

Took our club Angmagssalik out for a spin on a club paddle a couple of weeks ago. It is still a very fast boat, no-one could catch me with my greenland paddle. Normally paddling my Anas acuta or Tahe Greenland, someone with large blades and the physique to use them could easily get ahead in a Nordcapp for instance. It hasn't really got any overhang, even with my 70kg, both bow and stern are in the water all the way to the ends. Underway it is a fine boat, but lacks stability at rest. Edging far enough to improve turning has to be more a low brace, well off balance.

It is also very quiet through the water, with waves just washing over from bow, around the waist, to stern without splashing. The designs on which it was built were made for quiet and quick long distance in areas where game was very scarce.

The Anas acuta style is all about comfort and sea worthiness, staying afloat for long periods, not having to go too far or too fast, for hunting where game was relatively abundant, you just had to wait until it came close enough..

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by tg » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:04 am

@Mike,

I perhaps should've mentioned this before, and did on here a couple of years ago. My second 'Anny' was sold to an agent of Nigel Foster and I was under the impression it was to be shipped to him, or his outfit, in the US. I had a little feedback at the time and thought he wanted to produce the boat over there. I recall him saying he thought it as being built to sharp in the hull. Since rereading your comments about a Stateside copyright or patent I thought it might be an avenue you could explore. In any event, I was under the impression that Aled was ex of Granta, I may has mis read something, if so please forgive, and I am aware of at least one other user of this site who has made a survey of the boat.

@PeterG,

Have you thought about putting a skeg on your club boat at all. I suffer terribly from wind in mine :-), in both senses. Apart from the mental energies, and resulting discomforts, of balancing the thing I have a hell of a time stopping the weathercock. Hence my steering strokes compromise my stability in all but the most benign conditions. I'd be interested if you have any thoughts.

Isn't the angmagssalik obsolete these days? It's a general question really. To me this boat epitomises a time in my paddling career about which I sentimentalise. So I have a personal connection. However with the abundance of design software, skin on frame builders and the ability to employ more traditional metrics would'n't the contemporary enthusiast be better setting their sites in that direction, rather than this 60s/70s throwback. For me at least the boat is very much a product of the seventies.

Tim
"I sink therfore I am".

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Greenlandpaddler » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:40 pm

A modern version? Ooh yes please! If anyone starts producing a S&G I would be very interested - I think S&G is very under-rated.

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by PeterG » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:28 pm

Have you thought about putting a skeg on your club boat at all. I suffer terribly from wind in mine :-), in both senses. Apart from the mental energies, and resulting discomforts, of balancing the thing I have a hell of a time stopping the weathercock. Hence my steering strokes compromise my stability in all but the most benign conditions. I'd be interested if you have any thoughts.
Ours doesn't seem to weathercock at all, I wonder if this is something to do with the seating position, I am sitting quite far back in the cockpit with no seat or backrest. The hull looks slightly out of shape as if a couple of panels were cut too fine, maybe this has unexpected beneficial qualities.

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Yellerbelly » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:33 pm

Greenlandpaddler wrote:A modern version? Ooh yes please! If anyone starts producing a S&G I would be very interested - I think S&G is very under-rated.
Found it! Superior Kayaks in the US produce a S&G kit called Ammassalik.

Image
. . . . Ben

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Greenlandpaddler » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:23 pm

Ben - oh yes forgot about them!!! They certainly look gorgeous don't they? Wonder how much it would cost to import? Hmmmm........

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Kayaks'N'Beer
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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Kayaks'N'Beer » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:56 pm

Some even better photos on their facebook page.
Image

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Greenlandpaddler » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:06 pm

They do look gorgeous - so nicely finished!

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by tg » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:10 pm

PeterG wrote:
Have you thought about putting a skeg on your club boat at all. I suffer terribly from wind in mine :-), in both senses. Apart from the mental energies, and resulting discomforts, of balancing the thing I have a hell of a time stopping the weathercock. Hence my steering strokes compromise my stability in all but the most benign conditions. I'd be interested if you have any thoughts.
Ours doesn't seem to weathercock at all, I wonder if this is something to do with the seating position, I am sitting quite far back in the cockpit with no seat or backrest. The hull looks slightly out of shape as if a couple of panels were cut too fine, maybe this has unexpected beneficial qualities.
Might just be me, my weight (I am a little over) or lack of technique. I sit far enough back to have the coaming as my backrest. I'll have to experiment...
"I sink therfore I am".

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Wenley » Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:33 pm

Greenpaddler wrote:
Thanks Aled-only time for a quick scan so far but Design rights seems to have a maximum duration of 25 years in UK and EU law.
Only if registered and if they are novel at the time of the application. There are some niceties over in the USA, regarding boat plans, but I would dare and say, that a design as old as the Angmagssalik kayak is completely in the public domain as intellectual property rights are inapplicable it this case.
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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by puddled » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:14 pm

I guess you guys have found this by now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xAdOG2gx6A

Makes the whole S&G process look quite easy but I can imagine it isn't.

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Yellerbelly » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:30 pm

Found an old thread from 2008 on the West Coast Paddler forum (which refers back to this forum!). Someone has just taken delivery of an Angmagssalik made by Ottersports in the UK. Ottersports seems to have stopped trading in 2009.

Image

There must be a few old unloved Ang's out there that need some tlc?

. . . Ben

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by tg » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:16 am

I've found two on ebay over the last six years so maybe it's worth keeping an eye out there.
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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by maryinoxford » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:20 am

tg wrote:I've found two on ebay over the last six years so maybe it's worth keeping an eye out there.
Did the people selling them know how to spell the name? Always a hazard with searches... Or did you search on "Ang*" or just generally browse sea kayaks?
Not in Oxford any more...

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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by tg » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:33 am

maryinoxford wrote:
tg wrote:I've found two on ebay over the last six years so maybe it's worth keeping an eye out there.
Did the people selling them know how to spell the name? Always a hazard with searches... Or did you search on "Ang*" or just generally browse sea kayaks?
Hi Mary,

Rather sadly I find myself browsing 'sea kayak' all over the web fairly regularly. It has to be said that that the last one was spotted by my wife, who knows me too well. The first one that I built was really a reconstruction of a dying example. In fact the only piece to come fom Granta was the cockpit rim and coaming. I wrote (I know, a letter, fancy that) and told them what I was doing and they seemed happy enough. It was a B&Q special and I wasn't able to maintain her properly; ie, indoor storage. So she didn't last long. The second £300.00 from a well known public auction site, 2008 I think. The most recent £195, this year, fom the same. She was lying in a garden less than twenty miles from my home. So I guess they are out there.

Tim
"I sink therfore I am".

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ChrisS
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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by ChrisS » Sun May 12, 2013 7:18 pm

The Kayel Angmagssalik made by Aled is currently on ebay.

Image

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Grian
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Re: Angmagssalik - new start?

Post by Grian » Mon May 13, 2013 8:55 am

That is so beautiful!

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