Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

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tpage
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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by tpage »

WHat is a traveller? This is all sounding technical now.

I thought a traveller was a tin of beer that you drank on the way to the pub, or at least that was what my old Aussie flat mate in London told me as he thrust a can of lager into my hand as we walked round the corner to the pub. ;-)
Tony

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by Oarsome »

tpage wrote:WHat is a traveller? This is all sounding technical now.

I thought a traveller was a tin of beer that you drank on the way to the pub, or at least that was what my old Aussie flat mate in London told me as he thrust a can of lager into my hand as we walked round the corner to the pub. ;-)
Tony
A traveller is that "sliding" (or adjustable) part where the main sheet is connected to the deck (or cockpit in other boats).

Edit: It could be as simple as a (somewhat) taught rope going from one side to other where the main sheet attaches with a shackel or a sliding knot.

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by PhilAyr »

Oarsome wrote:
tpage wrote:WHat is a traveller? This is all sounding technical now.

I thought a traveller was a tin of beer that you drank on the way to the pub, or at least that was what my old Aussie flat mate in London told me as he thrust a can of lager into my hand as we walked round the corner to the pub. ;-)
Tony
A traveller is that "sliding" (or adjustable) part where the main sheet is connected to the deck (or cockpit in other boats).

Edit: It could be as simple as a (somewhat) taught rope going from one side to other where the main sheet attaches with a shackel or a sliding knot.
Hi Oarsome ~ You seem to know something about the art of sailing. Could this mean that you might abandon your principles and join up with us " cheats " by attaching one to your boat ? Now that would be interesting ! ;-)

Phil

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by Oarsome »

PhilAyr wrote:
Oarsome wrote:
Hi Oarsome ~ You seem to know something about the art of sailing. Could this mean that you might abandon your principles and join up with us " cheats " by attaching one to your boat ? Now that would be interesting ! ;-)

Phil
Ha, ha, you remembered that! No, I still won't be doing any sailing in a kayak, rowboat, or canoe. I have sailed sailboats and dinghies and "progressed" from there.

Although, I have seen some really, really fine "sailing canoes" (i.e. decked and not really set up for paddling - sort of like a skinny mini-dinghy).

I still prefer to go forward (or backwards, as it were) by my own power :-)

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by David Reekie »

Re traveller: maybe I'm being dumb, but if you want:

- a fixed mainsheet block in the middle of the boat rather than one sliding from side to side
- to start off by attaching it to decklines (or deckline fittings) rather than drilling holes

why not just tie the block to the middle of a line which is then tied tight between the decklines. There is no need to let it 'travel' on this line from one side to the other. That's what I'd do.

just an idea...


Dave.

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by PhilAyr »

David Reekie wrote:Re traveller: maybe I'm being dumb, but if you want:

- a fixed mainsheet block in the middle of the boat rather than one sliding from side to side
- to start off by attaching it to decklines (or deckline fittings) rather than drilling holes

why not just tie the block to the middle of a line which is then tied tight between the decklines. There is no need to let it 'travel' on this line from one side to the other. That's what I'd do.

just an idea...


Dave.
More or less the same set up David.

Oarsome wrote :
I still prefer to go forward (or backwards, as it were) by my own power :-)
Hi Oarsome ~ Good on you for sticking to your guns, but may I remind you that your paddle or oar (in your case) is not the only source of power. The tide plays a very big part too. You use the tide , but we use all three... Paddle, tide, and wind and it's all for free !

Phil

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by Oarsome »

PhilAyr wrote: Oarsome wrote :
I still prefer to go forward (or backwards, as it were) by my own power :-)
Hi Oarsome ~ Good on you for sticking to your guns, but may I remind you that your paddle or oar (in your case) is not the only source of power. The tide plays a very big part too. You use the tide , but we use all three... Paddle, tide, and wind and it's all for free !
Not to start that discussion again, but I use the tide the same way I use hills: I spend power to go uphill, and are thus able to relax downhill. Think of rubberband stretched by hand.

Using a sail is, to me, cheating in that regard, since you actually use another source of energy as propulsion. The tides? Well, I realise that if I ever get to go to the UK, I will have to take them into account, so as not to try to row against a tide of, say, 9 knots. But other places, I completely ignore tides and the few knots it goes one way or the other.

But again, I didn't post to reopen that box , but merely to try to help tpage understand what a traveller was, and that it wasn't overly technical :)

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by jamesl2play »

The movement of the traveller, has in the few sailing situations I have experienced, made a significant difference to the efficiency of the sail.
Air flow over the sail is a complex subject and I am not qualified to make much more than a fleeting comment on it.

It is my understanding that a sail works like an aeroplane wing but in the vertical plane. Wind(air) flowing over the longer side creates less pressure than the flatter side and this gives lift which in turn provides the power for forward motion up wind. The angle between the sail and the direction of travel is called the angle of attack.

When the sail is sheeted in the shape of the sail increases in depth and this provides more lift, and this is the important bit, the traveller allows you to alter the angle of attack of the sail without depowering it by letting the main sheet out. This is relevant when beating to wind as this is what gives you the ability to point.

When running down wind the traveller is let out to provide a better shape to catch the wind. Alternatively you can crack the traveller off a little to depower the sail if it is blowing a bit.

So, the traveller is important in tuning the sail which is why I would like to have a go at making it work before resorting to a fixed point on the centre line of the kayak which I assume would limit my options.

I might add an extra line to allow the traveller to move independently of the main sheet.

I do not accept the argument that this is cheating, that is being a bit purist. As Douglas mentions in his original post the sail should allow you to catch the wave in front which would significantly add to the speed and the buzz of paddling a kayak. That is what I am after. Its a new dimension and I am looking forward to experiencing it.

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by The Shiner »

When you're using your sail, do you have your skegs up or down?
Or does it not really matter, as you'd just use the skeg in the same way as you would if you weren't using a sail??

The only reason I ask is because I have just got hold of a Pacific Action sail for my Scupper Pro, but I am tempted to try it out on my Chatham once I've got the hang of it.

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by tpage »

Oh god.. Sorry I was only joking. Now we are back to skegs. Gulp

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by mick m »

jamesl2play wrote:The movement of the traveller, has in the few sailing situations I have experienced, made a significant difference to the efficiency of the sail.
Air flow over the sail is a complex subject and I am not qualified to make much more than a fleeting comment on it.

It is my understanding that a sail works like an aeroplane wing but in the vertical plane. Wind(air) flowing over the longer side creates less pressure than the flatter side and this gives lift which in turn provides the power for forward motion up wind. The angle between the sail and the direction of travel is called the angle of attack.

When the sail is sheeted in the shape of the sail increases in depth and this provides more lift, and this is the important bit, the traveller allows you to alter the angle of attack of the sail without depowering it by letting the main sheet out. This is relevant when beating to wind as this is what gives you the ability to point.

When running down wind the traveller is let out to provide a better shape to catch the wind. Alternatively you can crack the traveller off a little to depower the sail if it is blowing a bit.

So, the traveller is important in tuning the sail which is why I would like to have a go at making it work before resorting to a fixed point on the centre line of the kayak which I assume would limit my options.

I might add an extra line to allow the traveller to move independently of the main sheet.

I do not accept the argument that this is cheating, that is being a bit purist. As Douglas mentions in his original post the sail should allow you to catch the wave in front which would significantly add to the speed and the buzz of paddling a kayak. That is what I am after. Its a new dimension and I am looking forward to experiencing it.
yes the traveler is designd to do all that, on a big boat you ajust the travler, on akayak most of us dont have that ajustment, remember to keep it simpal ! the main thing about the travler is that it stops the sheet from being puled in to tight, on my boat I have just a loop of cord threaded throuh a tube , and the sheet pases under this . the sails that go to the UK are partly fited out in Scotland , thay make up the masts and fill out the fiting kits . thay suply a slightly up market travler.

re skegs and sailing, set your sail , then trim the kayak with the skeg ( simplifiying it a bit ! ) Douglas has a realy good post on his blog which cuvers most of the sutelties of kayak sailing its cald kayak sailing for non sailors , I regularly send a copy out to peopal who inquiar about sailing .

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by EK Sydney »

From the Australian Macquarie Dictionary:
Traveller (n)
A full strength beer, in stubby or tinnie form, carried most commonly in a stubby cooler, between venues where beer replenishment is likely to be difficult or impossible.

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by David Reekie »

James - some of what you write is true, some isn't :-)

Sheeting in does not increase depth on any sail I know of, and specifically decreases depth on many that I know well, including Laser and Finn dinghies etc. This is needed to flatten the sail to depower it and to point higher into the wind. There are then two uses of the traveller:

- when the traveller can be controlled, such as on a Finn, it is often used as the main control for exactly how far in or out the sail is sheeted when beating against the wind. The mainsheet controls sail shape and the traveller controls how far in or out it is. Counter-intuitive maybe, but true.
- when the traveller can't be controlled and is just a bar or line for the mainsheet block to run on, like in a Laser, it acts as Mick says, to prevent you sheeting in too tight. So you can pull hard on the mainsheet to control sail shape without winching the boom to the middle of the boat - which would make you go nowhere on most boats with a single sail. This type of traveller relies on the mainsheet block being free to slide from side to side even when you're pulling on the mainsheet. That in turn means the traveller bar or rope needs to stay flat: if you have a traveller rope with a load of slack in, then pulling the mainsheet tight will just pull the traveller into a triangle with the mainsheet block in the middle at the top and the whole point of it being a traveller is lost: the mainsheet block can't 'travel' anywhere. (Laser sailers go to a lot of effort to make their rope travellers really tight for exactly this reason.) I suspect this is where Mick's comments about having a tube on the line come from: I suspect the tube is stiff and designed to create a flat (side to side) bar as the traveller so the mainsheet block (or just the mainsheet it sounds like for Mick) really can 'travel' from side to side.

Now, this is a kayak with a rig which is very sophisticated for a kayak rig but I dare say (sorry Mick!) rather less sophisticated than an Olympic sailing dinghy's. And you're not trying to get the last 5% of performance. So

- I can't imagine there is any point in an adjustable traveller, far too complex for no reward
- logically I can see that there could be some point in a non-adjustable traveller, but you need to have something to keep it flat so it works, Mick's tube over the rope plan sounds the simplest
- but in practice Douglas has tried without a traveller at all and reckons the sail performs even better like that.

I know what I'd do but I hope the above is somewhat useful in disentangling the issues!

I need to get myself a sail and join in ...

cheers


dave

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by mick m »

Dave, your right about it being simpal, we are talking about a sea kayak ! the traveler is simpal and dose a good job ,thers no mooving parts and I find the sheet dos set at diferant positions on the travler , as to it being more efishant I dont know , but we are probably talking small persentages and will it make thatmuch diferance on a kayak ?
I think understanding about triming the sail /kayak and skeg is sumthing beter to think about and understand for performance with such simpal rigs !

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by JulesT »

Great thread Douglas - I'd like to get a FEKS but I just wondered if you would be so kind to summarise the differences between the code zero and the original sails in terms of handling / performance etc. Also what size to go for (I appreciate that will relate to the kind of conditions one wishes to use the sail in but lets say to cover as wide a wind range as possible). I have been using a homemade sail for some time now but from what I've read it won't touch the FEKS on performance. (background I windsurfed for 20 years prior to sea kayaking).

A few years ago I had a hairy scarey sail back from the Isle of Wight to Lymington. I had driven some distance to paddle over from Lymington but talk about bad planning, when I arrived I discovered it was the day of the annual offshore powerboat race from Cowes to Torquay! On the way over I bobbed around with the other spectator boats off hurst castle waiting for them to blast past. After they had gone I nipped over the short crossing and had lunch on a beach just short of the needles. I then sailed back on the IOW shore to the north east with the wind which by now was gusting bf5. I reasoned that to avoid being run down by returning powerboats the yellow sail would be essential to make me visible. The problem was that the wind was now gusting bf6! I could not launch the sail whilst out on the water as it was flapping wildly. I paddled my way to such a position on the shoreline that it would be a broad reach straight back to Lymington. At this moment the leading power boat returned at 50mph+. When there were no powerboats within sight or earshot I raised the sail whilst at the waters edge and pointing into the wind then bore off on to a broad reach. I was in my previous Alaw Bach with no skeg and the sail mount was squarely on the front hatch so the kayak had a tendency to luff up into wind. The stronger the wind the more pronounced was this effect. I had to lean very hard on a stern rudder. It was hell for leather but I made it across without coming to grief. When I got to the other side I had a mini adventure getting the rig down, I could not get the kayak to point into wind and had difficulty pulling the sail back without losing control. It probably took a good 5 minutes to get it down after which I promised that I would modify the installation.

Actually small craft did continue to use the solent so the powerboats had to dodge whatever was in their way. However, I would not repeat this mini-adventure !

See here for a few pics, spot the leading powerboat about 3 pics from the end. http://www.zen40268.zen.co.uk/seakayaki ... estSolent/

See the following link for the GPS track. I sailed from G to H to I then paddled back upwind a bit then set off for the broad reach back from K to M. Click on the balloons for dialog. http://www.zen40268.zen.co.uk/seakayaki ... 29_GM.html
Jules

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by cp70 »

Is there a concensus as to which kayak or style of kayak would be best, or more suitable, for kayak sailing?

I guess there might be a compromise between narrowness for paddling and beaminess for stability under sail?

Thanks

Clem

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by mick m »

Good morning,
Douglas can make a more indepth reply than i can, his writing is beter than mine! The main diferance is that the newer materials have enabled me to get beter shape in the lofting, it holds abeter shape. The new CZ range are a fuller cut, in low winds ther a bit sluggish pointing into it but atnabout 15nts it performs surprisingly well I think the newer models are a bit more afishant and feal a bit more stabel on the kayak. i paddle a short kayak and generaly youse a cz70 , and on a 14 ft kayak with no skeg itis a lot more afishant than the 80 it also stows on a shorter deck as well. Its a bit slower but Ican generaly hold onto it in stronger wind while others are taking sails down.

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by Douglas Wilcox »

Hi Jules and Clem,

I think for the widest. Range of winds in the UK that the 80 or 0.8sqm is best. the original has more twist and is more forgiving for less experienced sailors than the code zero especially when launching in a force 4 or above. It goes upwind higher than the Cz in light winds and is more forgiving in gusts but once the wind picks up the Cz is faster on all points of sailing. Most of us are former sailors/windsurfers and I would recommend the Cz for that group. Sailing novices might prefer the traditional sail. On long term heavy use, I have found that the Cz holds its shape better than the traditional. My blue white trad is now a bit loose in the leach but it still goes well. The all white Cz in many of my photos is a prototype but I have since bought a retail 0.8cz which performs identically.

I have found that tippy kayaks like the nordkapp LV sail just as well as more stable kayaks like Cetus MV/HIV. The sail acts like a big air Skeg settling the kayak in choppy conditions. I also use the 0.8cz on the delphin which is shorter and that combination works particularly well.

Douglas.

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by JulesT »

Thanks Douglas & Mick, time to put my hand in my pocket and get one and I'll be following Douglas's fitting instructions closely!

It is exhilarating but there certainly is an extra element of risk, in case anyone hasn't seen Rob Mercer's excellent article in Ocean paddler here is a link http://www.expeditionkayaks.com/mercer- ... ety-12.pdf
Jules

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by mick m »

Good morning,
Rob's Artical which apeard in OP is a realy good artical and I agree with it , It even made me re avaluate how Im making the sails , and recomending them, Im glade to say that my methods wernt in need of eny remodys.
at present im happy with what im making , but thats not to say im always listening to feedback , both good and bad, for me the bad is more important , often it means I need to look at how my gear is set up on the kayak, Im shore Douglas wold agree , thers no hard and fat rools of seting the mast onto the kayak, (iv even seen them mounted of senterd with no dramatic diferance in performance ) the main thing is to get the stays sorted properly, and to pay close atention to the managment of ''sail cluter'' on your deck .
have a look at Rob and Marks Blog on ther North Reef trip, thers a link from the Expodition Kayaks web site to Marks Blog .
the vidios are the best adverisment mony dident pay for

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by Tastim »

To be fair I have not used a sail that is permanently fixed to my kayak but as I am total KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) aficionado I will stick to the Tasmanian style, if all else fails the sail can simply ditched leaving the front deck as un-emcumberd as possible.

Cheers

Tim

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by chinaplate »

Apologies for sidetracking the thread a bit but I am an Aussie living in China and due to water quality work etc out of the Kayaking scene for about 18 months but starting into the wind up of my time here in China.Mick I have three of your sails and love em .Tastim keep it simple yeah I enven tried a hand held contraption for a while with no strings attached...failure but have often thought about the tassie approach.
Question to the Aussies is the OZ forum still alive I cant get onto it ?

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by EK Sydney »

Yep - http://www.seakayakforum.com - going strong, too strong sometimes....!
You do need to log in now I think, no longer free and open unless you join.

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by chinaplate »

Thanks Mark
I am a member and that is the same address I have been trying for a couple of weeks on and off.I guess it must be the Great Firewall of China that is causing the problem as I can not even get the page to open.Might buy a VPN and see if that helps.
Chris

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by EK Sydney »

I'm not surprised, its full of seditious mustards.

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by EK Sydney »

Err, I mean seditious bastards, spell checker strikes again. Apologies to all of the seditious mustards out there, no offense intended.

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by cp70 »

Hello Douglas,

Sorry for the rather tardy thank you, but thank you for giving me your opinion on sailing tippier kayaks.

It is of use as I am thinking of returning to sea kayaking and looking at cheap 2nd hand boats. The choice is often limited in my current price range, but tippier boats such as old Nordkapps (I realise it's not exactly an LV!) are quite prevalent, as well as 2nd hand plastic tourers etc.

I'm sorry to say that I haven't heard the term sail 'twist' before. Am I right in thinking that it means that the sail has been cut to give a more exaggerated curve to the sail, a more billowed effect if you see what I mean?

Kind Regards,

Clem

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by mick m »

Douglas can probably explain it beter,but basicaly with the flatvearth sail its the way the head of the sailalows sume of the wind to spill this makes the sail a little more forgiving and i think poswblypoint a little higher. The new line of Sails have less twist designed into them and in light winds tend not to point as high,but above about 12ntos thay out perform the older designs.

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by Douglas Wilcox »

Image

Hello Clem, Mick has said it very succinctly. This photo of Phil's sail shows twist. The angle of the boom at the bottom, is closer to the centreline of the kayak than the angle of the batten at the top. As a gust hits the sail it twists more and spills the wind out the top helping to keep the sail controllable but with a loss of power. It's a compromise between control and power. the Code Zero sail has less twist but more power.

Douglas

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Re: Kayak sailing back from Ailsa Craig.

Post by cp70 »

Thank you Mick and Douglas, I get the idea now.

The photo clearly demonstrates it too.

Thanks,
Clem

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