point 65 xp18.kayak^

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point 65 xp18.kayak^

Post by derek wade » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:46 pm

from Midget 599......seriously considering buying an xp18.Looked at a lot of bumf.and the videos.Quite impressed.However nothing like getting a straight opinion from a fellow paddler.Has anyone got one??.If so what do you think of it.Would be grateful for any feedback.

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Boots » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:27 pm


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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Curly67 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:37 pm

I was looking at buying one until I heard a few concerns about Point 65`s build quality. I then saw and demo`d the Rockpool Taran. Excelent build quality as with all Rockpool kayaks, I was hooked so bought one and enjoy every paddle!
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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by nigelhatton » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:52 pm

There does seem to be a problem with Point 65 kayaks and build quality. I bought an XP 18 and when I tried to use the rudder it was very hard to do. I thought it was my damaged feet from an earlier incident but when I looked inside the rear hatch I saw that the rudder guides were very twisty creating too much resistance for the rudder.I have been advised to repair it a certain way but access is tight.

Without using the rudder it needs the skeg if paddling hard. It's a quick kayak and will be quicker when I can spend more time in it getting my fitness back. Skeg up and it's very manueverable. I have surfed it on the open sea and it performs well at doing just that. It's a heavy kayak at 25 kgs and carrying it out of the water back to my car is hard work but again that's down to my health. The front sides flex in and out when going head to wind and the side at the front feel very thin.

In a nutshell it's not worth the money at £2349 but it's good looking and reasonable handling and has good initial stability for a 15 stone 6 ft paddler. I think Oban kayak are selling a demo at a lower price. I bought one cos I have too much money and the Taran was a bit too narrow/tippy for a all round pleasure kayak for someone of my build, in my opinion.

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Jim » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:28 am

nigelhatton wrote:I bought one cos I have too much money and the Taran was a bit too narrow/tippy for a all round pleasure kayak for someone of my build, in my opinion.
Really?

I haven't tried the XP18 but I have checked them out at Oban Sea Kayaks and my impression of it was that it is narrower and much lower volume than the Taran, it may well be faster too - I got the impression it was more focussed towards the ocean racing market, whilst the Taran is aimed more towards fast touring with a good number of distance records thrown in to give it pedigree.

I have over 20kg on Nigel but I find my Taran is the best fitting boat I've had for a long time - it isn't dead stable, but is nowhere near as tippy as it looks. Hopefully I'll get a camping trip with it soon.

I would suggest trying both and making your own mind up

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Selkie » Mon May 07, 2012 10:32 am

I would be interested in more feedback from anyone who has paddled XP18, Epic 18 and/or Epic V8 (same hull?) I recently had a short paddle of a friends Point 65 Spyder, the open cockpit version of the XP18. It is radical, but seems to be designed for a more specific use of following seas and chasing waves. I tested is alongside my Quest LV and found the Spyder faster paddling with the current, but decidedly sluggish and slower paddling against the current. This is probably due to the flat square like profile that gives amazing satability for such 21" beam and helps it to surf in following seas, but the extra wetted area is what probably makes it sluggish paddling against the flow.

I have never paddled the Taran or the Epics. I understand that they have similar flatter/squarer cross sections and wondered if they had similar properties, advantages/disadvantages ie better in following seas than going against the current/tide.
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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Baldy-Old-Troll » Mon May 07, 2012 12:21 pm

I,ve had an Epic 18x for just over a year , it's my second sea kayak and is miles away from my previous boat which was an Island Expedition, I recently used it on my 3 Star course alongside more traditional boats( although the coach was paddling a Taran), and found it coped better than I hoped. I'm not able to comment on the XP18 but the only way a traditional style boat is going to be faster into the wind ,tide ,or current is if it's on the deck of something with an engine! If I'm paddling with a traditional style boat I have to paddle at a greatly reduced cadence, the 18x just seems so much easier to move forwards. If it's any help I've recently started to use a gps watch for my training sessions at the loch and have managed 8.6 km/p/h on a windy day and 9.6 km/p/h on a calmer paddle, these are average speeds over a 10km course with a Lendal cranked kinetic tour 600/xs. I've never raced , I paddle mostly for fitness,getting out on the sea when I can manage,not sure if my limited experience is of any help but I love my Epic! just don't buy one if you paddle with friends you'll either lose them(literally) or you'll freeze to death from paddling too slowly.

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by nigelhatton » Mon May 07, 2012 2:36 pm

I have an XP 18 and wish I never bought it. If you are thinking of buying one then check it over first cos I think the reputation of this company is as many people say, poor build quality with chinese labour and western retail prices. Mayby look at the Rockpool Taran instead.

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by No Kayak » Mon May 07, 2012 3:25 pm

nigelhatton wrote:I have an XP 18 and wish I never bought it. If you are thinking of buying one then check it over first cos I think the reputation of this company is as many people say, poor build quality with chinese labour and western retail prices. Mayby look at the Rockpool Taran instead.
I'm not sure what you mean by the relevance of 'Chinese labour'? I don't see how where it's built is more important than how well it's built. Your XP isn't rubbish because it was built in China, it's rubbish because it was built badly.

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Mark R » Mon May 07, 2012 3:32 pm

nigelhatton wrote:chinese labour
Let's keep Prince Philip out of this.
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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by scotty » Mon May 07, 2012 8:00 pm

I have an epic 18,its performance advantage is more noticable on flat water or following seas or if your sprinting or paddling hard against a more standard shorter waterline length kayak,head winds can remove the advantage mostly because its quite high volume and usually unloaded, the tide on the other hand makes no difference( unless it has changed sea state by changing direction) compared to a normal kayak,if you think of the tide as a conveyer belt your still moving over the water surface at the same speed even though your covering more ground with it or less against it.

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by mark62 » Mon May 07, 2012 10:00 pm

http://www.ppca-canoe-club.org.uk/forum ... php?t=1837 not my boat but I have paddled it. Can't say that it needed the skeg down when I was paddling it and the rudder worked fine when i trialed it. This boat has had some repair work done but professionally so it looks as good as new. The price is ridiculously cheap at £750 but I know he needs the space, the cheap price does not reflect the condition it is in really good condition. I am sure a test drive could be arranged.

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Selkie » Tue May 08, 2012 7:37 am

Thanks for the feedback on the Epic 18 and glad to hear it performs well. There are plenty of positive reviews on the Taran as well. It seems that some kayaks may look similar but perform very differently. I note the Pace 18 is in the new shape fast class. In an ideal world it would be great to paddling these designs side by side.

Any one else have any feedback on XP18s performance as opposed to build quality. I am more interested in what the good points and draw backs are in performance.

I wanted to like the Spyder (open cockpit version of the XP18) as I like open cockpits for certain kinds of paddling. It looked good and had some good performance characteristics, but also some serious drawbacks:

The rudder system was very poor and had to be completly rebuilt by the owner as it was next to useless. Very poor for a kayak of this price. This could be corrected.

The rudder is fixed some way back from the stern projecting 9" and needing much more draft and in real danger of getting knocked off or damaged. This also meant that it could not be beached without consideration of this lengthy projection. How would deal with a boat loaded with kit???

The cockpit looked well designed, but once sitting in it (for me) this was the biggest drawback as the feet seemed too high for the low seat. I have more flexibility than most, but struggled to sit upright enough to engage proper torso rotation. I would not want to paddle like this for any length of time.

I have already mentioned my suprise at how different the Spyder performed with a following sea/current (fast) to paddling to the tide/current (sluggish). This was on flat water, so maybe it is better in a bigger sea, but it was a real struggle compared to my standard Quest LV that was paddled alongside.
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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Selkie » Tue May 08, 2012 7:38 am

mark62 wrote:http://www.ppca-canoe-club.org.uk/forum ... php?t=1837 not my boat but I have paddled it. Can't say that it needed the skeg down when I was paddling it and the rudder worked fine when I trialed it. This boat has had some repair work done but professionally so it looks as good as new. The price is ridiculously cheap at £750 but I know he needs the space, the cheap price does not reflect the condition it is in really good condition. I am sure a test drive could be arranged.
Thanks for the heads up on this Mark, I will contact him.
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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Graham T » Tue May 08, 2012 8:21 am

Hi Selkie do I have it right that you are dubious about the spider in terms of the hulls performance, after paddling both with the tide and against the tide ? not sure how that one works out as you are in effect paddling on a moving carpet given it is flat water not a sea state change bit mysterious that one , perhaps it is a sign of terminal hull speed or the hump where you get little reward for increased paddling effort. And this is the same hull as used with the XP18 you are interested in ?

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by nigelhatton » Tue May 08, 2012 8:59 am

I understand Selkie's observation regarding hull speed of the XP18. When paddling down wind it will go quicker than a conventional sea kayak but against the elements and tide there is no advantage. The rudder system is rather poor, now that I fixed mine. It just doesn't do much but when the skeg is down it tracks well. I have a Valley Aquanaut HV and that performs better in most ways that the XP18 . It could be that when the XP18 is loaded down with weight there may be a slight advantage in speed for the same paddling effort over a conventional kayak.

I have a couple of races to do this year and I'll probably choose the XP18.

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Jim » Wed May 09, 2012 12:03 am

I think the rudder position is conventional wisdom for a ski/race boat because being set so far forward it will generally always be in the water - one of the few criticisms proper racers have made of the Taran is that the overstern rudder will emerge in some sea conditions, and is a bit smaller in area than they are used to. As a recreational paddler I haven't personally noticed a problem on the Taran as a result of either of these observations, and the flip up overstern design means I can be sure of not damaging it when launching and landing. Kariteks skeg-rudder seems a suitable halfway house in that it can be retracted, with that I would worry about the alignment mechanism (don't trust my feet/cables) because it clearly needs to be in line when you raise it - I should ask for a proper look if I am down at Karitek again.

Of course just because the XP18 rudder is in the 'right' place isn't the whole story, looks like you and Nigel have stories about it not being rigged properly from the factory/ and perhaps being too small to be effective? Also why have a boat with a skeg and a rudder? I know I have asked this before, but I don't remember if I got an answer, or maybe I just didn't believe it?

Interestingly some people I know have cited the Epic 18's rudder as a bit underwhelming despite being well protected/integrated and huge in comparison to the Taran's.

I guess it depends a lot on what your background/experience is and what your intended usage is. For me having not had a rudder on a sea kayak before, with recreational touring intentions the Taran rudder works just fine and I'll bet the same is true of any of the others used in a similar way.

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Graham T » Wed May 09, 2012 7:43 am

[quote="Jim"]
I guess it depends a lot on what your background/experience is and what your intended usage is. For me having not had a rudder on a sea kayak before, with recreational touring intentions the Taran rudder works just fine and I'll bet the same is true of any of the others used in a similar way.

I guess it depends a lot on what your background/experience is and what your intended usage is. For me having not had a rudder on a sea kayak before, with recreational touring intentions the Taran rudder works just fine and I'll bet the same is true of any of the others used in a similar way.

Not sure this is quiet true unless what Freya is doing is not the same as recreational touring (steel hat on) Epic have added that drop down pop up fin into the rudder. I am not sure if this is the need for increased area or to ensure there is always rudder in the water. The fin is replaceable and Freya carries several spares and seems important. Now of course for her it may be due to the large seas she enounters.
I suspect while the Epic rudder as a hinged part of the hull is a good idea in many respects including less drag it also has less "bite" The flow of water onto he rudder must be significanlty different to an over the stern design. In dinghies a rudders ability to remain in control is not dependant on its size entirely but many other factors the leading edge profile being significant in my experience.

Now I wonder if the Taran would be properly fast if the rudder had hydrofoil wings fitted ?

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by PhilAyr » Wed May 09, 2012 9:49 am

nigelhatton wrote:I understand Selkie's observation regarding hull speed of the XP18. When paddling down wind it will go quicker than a conventional sea kayak but against the elements and tide there is no advantage.
Not if the "conventional kayak " has a sail deployed, but of course that would be cheating ! ;-)

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Jim » Wed May 09, 2012 12:29 pm

Graham T wrote:Not sure this is quiet true unless what Freya is doing is not the same as recreational touring
It may or may not be recreational, but to assume her background is identical to mine and that she drives a kayak the same way would be a pretty big leap. Just depends which aspects of my sentence you put more emphasis on :-)

Anyone who has spent weeks at a time in their boat on a big expedition or circumnavigation is bound to have a more sensitive feel for it than those of us who go out at the weekends when the weather suits us, in the same way that those paddling at the competitive edge will develop a more sensitive feel for the boat.

Lets not get too deep into rudder design, another significant factor is the wake the hull directs at the rudder, get that all wrong and the rudder can remain ineffective however much you increase the area or hone the leading edge :-)

Winglets on rudders I am not convinced by - having sailed you must be familiar with the effect of hydrofoil lift on the rudder if the dinghy heels too far, Toppers for example beyond a certain heel angle become almost uncontrollable and carve up into the wind (my strength and weight means I can hold onto them longer than most but it can't be good for the rig!). On other boats it can have a marked effect on trim as you either pull the stern into the water or lift it out, depending on which way you are trying to steer. Surely whilst one winglet was becoming more vertical for steering 'grip' the other would be getting more horizontal and adding extra upwards or downwards lift?

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Graham T » Wed May 09, 2012 1:43 pm

Sorry Jim too serious. The hydrofoil comment was not serious you would need one front and back and I would say even JW could not paddle hard or fast enough to have the craft on a foil (joking again but serous comment also). Plates or fences have been shown to work effectively on dinghies at least a well sailed one but are impractical for other reasons on a kayak at least for me.

My point is without going into all the factors which with a dinghy include area also where that area is, section or section as regards the angle at which the blade stalls. for arguments sake assuming no fence at the waterline the point at which air flows down the leading edge of the rudder or flow breaks away depends on many factors. including hull shape, boat trim both angle of heel and for/aft as well as speed. Once cavitation occurs or the blade stalls you are toast unless or until this is corrected.

Anyway back to kayaks the comment I made was that it may not be area as you also point out but the flow onto the rudder and it's type or shape. The hinged rear hull rudder will I would submit perform in a different manner to one over the stern. The sectioned rudder on your Taran I suspect is more efficient than the flat plate types which might require a greater area for the same end result.

Agreed regards paddler experince sensitivity but I thought Freya reached points where truth be told the rudder was insufficient for her purposes until the extra drop down plate was added. I speculate this is because the rudder without is less efficient in effect but lower drag for speed. I accept it could be that it is simply coming out of the water at times but think they all do this so doubt that is the reason. I suspect the rudder is in the water enough to have sufficient directional control provided while in the water it is effective.

My suspicion although not a hydrodynamicist is that if you think in terms of the Epic basic hull rudder as a triangle blunt end forward, to turn you push one flat plate side (yea I know it's not flat but you get the idea) and at the point it presents enough resistance to create turning there will be breakaway flow around the back. Your sectioned rudder with Laminar flow? but anyway an attached flow will produce a turning moment to the rear of the hul as soon as as the angle changes basicaly the rudder goes straight ahead in it's own path through the water.
While the hull rudder looks better and may be faster for racing for an expo type craft I would opt for an over stern sectioned rudder as my own preference, much as your own hmmmmmmmmmmmm good choice Jim.

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Jim » Wed May 09, 2012 7:46 pm

Graham - no argument about most of that, in Freyas case, and I was thinking of her modifications when I wrote my original bit (I beleive for a while she used something not endorsed by Epic, but lets skim over that) I am just not sure that I or another ordinary paddler would necessarily find the original rudder to be next to useless, especially another ordinary British paddler brought up without rudders. Now the Aussies and Tassies would probably spot a problem right away, and the racers and anyone really in tune with their boat and who has tried other rudders, I was just suggesting and giving Epic the benefit of the doubt that anyone who has never really used or needed a rudder, might not notice it's drawbacks.

As a naval architect I can see the reasoning behind it and also see flaws due to aspect ratio and, well where is the root? it's integral with the hull so rather than getting the root as deep as possible (I'm thinking keels but sort of applies to rudders too) the entire rudder is above where the root would normally be even if it is below the surface.... The concept of fishy elegance is nice, but I guess it didn't work because it is opposite to most of the features used on fins or rudders.

How much advantage does a wing ssectioned rudder give over flat? Probably less than a VPP could reliably determine. My final year project was looking at the possible benefits of wing sectioned offset keels (bilge keels, lee boards etc) using a VPP which I had to largely re-write to make it do what I needed. I can't recall my exact conclusions but the effect was not very obvious in most cases - I did have an option for lifting the keel with the wing pulling the wrong way which made some difference in some directions (polar plot) but as I recall flat or symmetrically shaped bilge keels made no discernable difference to the numbers (so maybe a couple of percent in reality or if calculated better?).

Have we digressed?

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Graham T » Wed May 09, 2012 8:12 pm

Ha HA yep I tink we digressed somewhat I do not have the technical knowledge you do. What I can say is I have experienced sailing dinghies at high speed in perfect trim where there is complete loss of rudder control with pretty much no helm in use just sucking air. I believe some used a fence to prevent this. Other rudders may or may not remain effective primarily depending on airofoil section. In heavy air sailing you may need to make some sharp course corrections so high angle of attack so long as the boat is upright and in good balance the even a small rudder may be okay so long as the leading edge is shaped that flow does not break down. A large flat plate or too sharp a leading edge would give less accurate stearage or loss of control. I think the leeboard is different.
A friend once said "you are very equipment sensitive" but now I certainly have digressed. oh I did work for Phil Milanes for some time long ago.

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by EK Sydney » Wed May 09, 2012 8:29 pm

G'day Jim and Graham,
You guys are losing me on the technicalities, but having paddled the Epic 18 with both the old fin extension, as well as the new skeg-style extension, I can tell you the difference is palpable. The new rudder gives you a huge amount of control down sea, the old one in my opinion was suitable only for what I would call flat water.
The point the new Epic rudder starts to lose torque is one where most paddlers probably wouldn't want to be out there at all, very steep following or quartering seas where you would want to have a few more skills in the box than just hoping your rudder will work. As to how it interacts with the hull, you do need to paddle it like a ski in downwind conditions, tuning the angle down sea rather than blasting down the face every time. This is obviously the point where hull shape matters, as the rudder is swinging like a barn door in the wind most of the time....
In the Taran you don't have to be so cultured, it just seems to love ploughing into and over the top of anything you decide you're going to take on. Note though, my Taran is slight modified from the standard in terms of rudder draft (more), and I also have a different foot plate system from the standard, essentially to make the power transfer more like a surf ski.
I think the king of rudders is still out there in some clever designer's mind, and I also think when it does make it to production it will have a mighty impact on our sport.
Mark.

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Graham T » Wed May 09, 2012 9:00 pm

Gday also Mark just to be clear do you maen your rudder is longer than standard ? and you get more angle on the ruder from you toe controls ? Which rudder did you order the Taran with ? the smaller aerofoiled smart track one or the larger flat plate seaward one ?
Do surf skis have much greater steerage than sea kayaks ?
I am pretty sure Jim and I are on the same page that the Epic 18 has a lot more control with its added drop down rudder than without nice for you to confirm it.
Now how about sending some sun over here where it has been raining for several weeks !

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by EK Sydney » Wed May 09, 2012 9:16 pm

G'day Graham,
I've got the Seaward rudder, and I changed the smart track footpegs system for an Onno Footplate. What this does is eliminate the lag between foot pressure and rudder response, which is really important as things get bigger and steeper and you want to track across to different sections of a runner to stop yourself from stalling. I don't think the degree of turn in the rudder is as important as this direct transfer, and I also think the blade shape is less important than the pivot point. I think smart tracks are great for anything except pointy end paddling, but prefer my own solutions based on how my ski is set up. The plate has a 60degree angle, it allows me to drive through my heels, and the instant kick gives the boat an extra dimension in bigger following seas. The heel drive is one thing you have to experience to see what a difference it makes to your power and ability to accelerate.
The rudder position on a ski, essentially where we put our skegs, gives you incredible control. That said, I'm not so sure, after once fitting a rudder/skeg to an Explorer, that this position is ideal for a more traditional shaped sea kayak. You only have to look at the stern of a ski compared to a Nordkapp to see that no one solution will work for all.
Perhaps we will see a retractable forward mounted ski rudder on a different stern shape for touring sea kayaks one day in the future, but for now the Epic solution is.......almost.....but not quite....the best attempt anyone has made towards that end.
And sorry mate, but 2 weeks from the depths of winter here and we've just had 3 days in a row over 25C, bizarre climate change at work again.
Mark.

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Graham T » Wed May 09, 2012 9:29 pm

Mark does your plate allow you to drie with your legs while paddling or is it like the old rudder bars where doing this changes direction (hope that makes sense)
Well of course some one will have to try a rudder at the bow have you seen how manouverable some fighter jets are fitted with canards ? (yea I know they might use vectored thrusting as well) I think I saw an Americas cup yacht fitted with rudders fore and aft perhaps for greater manouverability during prestart dueling

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Graham T » Wed May 09, 2012 9:50 pm

Mark does your plate allow you to drie with your legs while paddling or is it like the old rudder bars where doing this changes direction (hope that makes sense)
Well of course some one will have to try a rudder at the bow have you seen how manouverable some fighter jets are fitted with canards ? (yea I know they might use vectored thrusting as well) I think I saw an Americas cup yacht fitted with rudders fore and aft perhaps for greater manouverability during prestart dueling

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by EK Sydney » Wed May 09, 2012 10:01 pm

No, it's a solid bar, I assume you're asking if it's a tiller style? A rudder at the bow? Jeez, imaging running 20kmh on a decent following sea......backwards!

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Re: point 65 xp18.kayak

Post by Graham T » Thu May 10, 2012 7:58 am

Hi Mark ha ha and I thought you wanted some sharp rudder response it would of course add a little weight needing to be fully retractable and who said about going backwards haven't you seen Top Gun ?

Yes I did mean is it a tiller bar type of arrangement. So am I right you find the increased rudder control more important than the draw back others have described of not being able to put the power down through the legs without inadvertently steering ?

I have never paddled a kayak fitted with a rudder, I am glad to have learnt and still be learning to paddle without one especially because like all things they can fail, but I plan to try a kayak which uses one so I am very interested to learn as much as I can before I make any choices. I inherantly prefer an aerofoil section for several reasons. And while I am not sure what it would be like to steer with my toes only can see it allows my paddling to remain the same. While you can no doubt be far more aggressive steering with a tiller and can see how in big waves to follow a line for surfing this instant change of direction may be very important, do you not have to be careful not to move your legs when you are going int a straight line ?

From what you say you can feel the lag in the system. On a Dinghy I favoured a fixed rudder blade because no lifting blade even if bolted up tight as can be had zero movement, and on a kayak that is not practical. Do you use wire or something like Kevlar for you steering lines?

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