sea paddles

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andymc131179
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sea paddles

Post by andymc131179 »

Hi all who can help

I am demoing a some composite sea boats over the coming weeks, can i use my white water blades for this?

I paddle with 197 Werner powerhouse carbon cranks or Werner sho guns, will these do the job on easyish 10 km sea trips?

When I do by paddles if i paddle on white water with cranks does it make sense that i would want cranked sea paddles?

Sorry for what maybe deemed stupid questions.

Many thanks

Andy Mc

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Voodoo
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Re: sea paddles

Post by Voodoo »

Hi

I would say you will be fine with them for the day it in theory means you would be on a faster cadence but over 10K I am sure you will manage,

Funny I use Straights on the river and have only got a crank for the first time for the sea since on the river let face it we float most of the time down stream, Where as on the sea you are paddling all the time so you do get the benefit of cranks more when sea paddling

Nigel
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jamesl2play
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Re: sea paddles

Post by jamesl2play »

I reckon it is all down to how you feel with them.

IMHO 197cm is way too short for a sea kayak. To paddle a sea kayak efficiently you should extend your top arm and rotate your torso very much as if you are paddling a K1 or K2. If you try this correctly with a short blade your top hand will cross right over the boat and you will lack power at the beginning and end of the stroke. Or your stroke will be short and your cadence high. If your own style allows this and you are comfortable then fine.

FYI I use 215cm blades but, that is me.

Rdscott
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Re: sea paddles

Post by Rdscott »

Jamesl2play I can understand where your coming from but that all depends on your paddling type. If i were paddling my sea kayak as if i would paddle a K1 racer i would be very fast but get tiered quickly a more relaxed paddling with changes in style for the conditions,move out put would be used.
I have paddledwith both long and short paddles, my hands are in the samepossition on the shaft i know this as both my cranks are in the same place it is the material on the out side of my crank that differs my hands come infront of my face with both paddles the differance is how long the stroke is for me.

You can paddle with river blades but they are not as efficent you can keep up with others (ihave done it on several occasions)but you will get tiered far quicker than them.

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MikeB
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Re: sea paddles

Post by MikeB »

Any paddle will be fine. Whether is fine long term is another matter of course. Only by seeing how you get on and then trying other paddles will you know for sure. There are "paddle selectors" on several of the main maker's site's certainly Werner have one, and that might give you a sense of where to start.

A lot depends on your height, the boat width and your paddling style. Be wary of too long a paddle - or too big a blade! I'm 6'2" with quite a long back and my main paddle is a cranked full carbon Lendal Kinetic on a 220 shaft. I commented some while back that having spent a day using (inadvertantly) a 215 setting, I rather liked it.

Also consider the shaft and blade material as well as whether you like a crank or not. FWIW, I have a straight shafted Kinetic equivalent as spares - they have the standard glass shaft and the blades are the N12 plastic. Having been forced to use them for a while a year or so back, they really are nothing like as nice as the full carbon cranks which they temporarily replaced. To add to the choices - I managed to get a carbon shaft with f/glass blades - and then finally found the carbon blades I wanted. As a direct comparison, the f/glass blades were fine - it was the shaft which made the most difference. That would produce a reasonable cost saving.

I would just flag that there still seems to be an ongoing problem with getting Lendals although there is some stock around. KariTek and Summit to Sea being at least two retailers who have proved very helpful indeed to me in the recent past. Hoepfully Lendal will sort out production shortly!

There are quite a few earlier threads on paddle choices - linked from the Equipment page of the Almanac, or a search will bring them up.

Hope this helps - Welcome to the dark side. Mike.

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Re: sea paddles

Post by rockhopper »

I'm 5' 8" (on a good day!!) and use a 197cm Werner Player (and have done for 3 years). Wouldn't change it for another. I have tried longer paddles but really don't get on with them. I think that if you are used to using that paddle then it will be fine on the sea provided your kayak is not too wide.

Rog.

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Re: sea paddles

Post by Summit to Sea »

MikeB wrote:I would just flag that there still seems to be an ongoing problem with getting Lendals although there is some stock around. KariTek and Summit to Sea being at least two retailers who have proved very helpful indeed to me in the recent past. Hoepfully Lendal will sort out production shortly!
Thanks for the kind words. With regard to Lendal production, they're getting there, bear with them, I've seen pre-production models and they're impressive. I assure you that they'll be worth the wait!

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MikeB
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Re: sea paddles

Post by MikeB »

I really, really, hope so. I just love Lendal, great paddles. The damage to the brand, by this constant delay - --

chrism
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Re: sea paddles

Post by chrism »

Rdscott wrote:Jamesl2play I can understand where your coming from but that all depends on your paddling type. If I were paddling my sea kayak as if I would paddle a K1 racer I would be very fast but get tiered quickly a more relaxed paddling with changes in style for the conditions,move out put would be used.
I paddle a sea kayak with the same technique/style as I paddle a K1 racer. How I'd paddle a K1 racer if doing a similar length trip - which pretty much boils down to the same efficient technique, but a lower work rate/cadence for a longer trip. Just because you're paddling slower doesn't mean a less efficient technique is better, and just because you're using a racing technique doesn't mean you have to put lots of effort in.

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maryinoxford
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Re: sea paddles

Post by maryinoxford »

Summit to Sea wrote:With regard to Lendal production, they're getting there, bear with them, I've seen pre-production models and they're impressive. I assure you that they'll be worth the wait!
Will Paddlok joints on the new models be compatible with the old ones? A long time ago, I bought a 4-piece, glass shaft, nylon blades. Later I picked up a carbon shaft, Scottish-made like the glass shaft. If scrape up the money for a pair of carbon blades, I could have a full carbon paddle... if the new blades fit...

Mary
Not in Oxford any more...

Lendal
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Re: sea paddles

Post by Lendal »

maryinoxford wrote:
Summit to Sea wrote:With regard to Lendal production, they're getting there, bear with them, I've seen pre-production models and they're impressive. I assure you that they'll be worth the wait!
Will Paddlok joints on the new models be compatible with the old ones? A long time ago, I bought a 4-piece, glass shaft, nylon blades. Later I picked up a carbon shaft, Scottish-made like the glass shaft. If scrape up the money for a pair of carbon blades, I could have a full carbon paddle... if the new blades fit...

Mary
Lendal are now in full production of STRAIGHT shaft paddles. Standard will be 2, 3 and 4 piece paddles but custom is the name of the game. Narrow shaft and standard shaft. We've been working on a brand new glass blade, aluminium powder coating. New carbon baldes now available...
On the standard shaft everything that was compatible will still be compatible.
Our warehouse is manned from 09:00 - 15:00 and can be contacted on 01407 761960 - or email lendal@lendal.com

The website is still being worked on - and new production stock is not shown in the online shop (yet.... so contact for info).
Kari Tek and Summit to Sea are 2 suppliers who can also help you.

Injected cranks coming soon....... ......

Thank you!
http://www.lendal.com

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immunogirl
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Re: sea paddles

Post by immunogirl »

Rdscott wrote:Jamesl2play I can understand where your coming from but that all depends on your paddling type. If I were paddling my sea kayak as if I would paddle a K1 racer I would be very fast but get tiered quickly a more relaxed paddling with changes in style for the conditions,move out put would be used.
I have paddledwith both long and short paddles, my hands are in the samepossition on the shaft I know this as both my cranks are in the same place it is the material on the out side of my crank that differs my hands come infront of my face with both paddles the differance is how long the stroke is for me.

You can paddle with river blades but they are not as efficent you can keep up with others (ihave done it on several occasions)but you will get tiered far quicker than them.
i guess it depends on whether you're saying if you're paddling a k1 racer in a race vs. on an endurance paddle.

I paddle with a wing paddle at all times - high vertical stroke, high cadence. What changes when I want to go fast vs. when I want to go take is easy, is how much muscle I put into it. If I want to go fast, I'll jam my foot against the footpegs at the beginning of the stroke and push/pull harder. If I'm just cruising, there's a light pressure on my foot pegs, and I let the paddle glide through the water without pushing/pulling - which makes for an effortless stroke.

If you're comparing long vs. short paddles & you're not moving your hands on the shaft, you've got your hands in the wrong position for a wing stroke/high vertical stroke. You want yoru hands on the shaft wider than your shoulders for a wing/vertical stroke and it should be wider than a low angle stroke. I stopped using my lendal cranks with the lendal wing paddle for that reason - the cranks are in the wrong spot to actually do a proper stroke.

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Re: sea paddles

Post by Rdscott »

I was refering to tosimilar paddles duetohiminquiring about using his white water paddle.

I do not use a winged paddle so will not comment on the use however if i am relaxed paddling there is a lower paddle blades and much less body rotation than amore energetic paddleing. using amixtureof techniques willalowyou to paddle formuch longer much, No matterwhat kindofstroke i amdoing i have my hands slightly wider than shoulders as i know this works for mei alsodont change my paddle so the cranks limit where my hands are.

If I changed the placement of my handsforeach and indavidual stroke iwould need lots and lots of paddles, which as this sport is all ready exceedingly pricey this isn't always an option.

My commentsasi madeclearwerefrom the use of two paddles one short one one long both with hands in the same distance apprt with the differance of how far the blade is away frommy hands.And what i was saying is that using either paddlemy had didnot cross over the center point of my face.

A k1 paddling stylemay workfor somebut not for all having comefromalazy white water back ground and having used awhite water paddle for sevaral years on the sea i found a k1 Styel (sat upright high body rotation Bold paddling) at only efficent for asertain amount of time.

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immunogirl
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Re: sea paddles

Post by immunogirl »

I think it all depends on what you're used to, I find it efficient to do a high vertical stroke all day long - but maybe that's because I've built up the endurance for it - I've also always had fairly upright posture in general. It does depend on the blade size - I've got a mid sized wing & a small sized wing - if I'm getting tired with the mid wing, I switch to the small wing. Once in a great while, I'll switch to a greenland paddle, where I probably go half a mile an hour or so slower than my cruising pace with a wing - but I use the same vertical style stroke with a greenland.

The white water paddle will work for the op, he'll just have to do a higher angle vertical stroke and it will probably force rotation - which is a good thing.

It's possible to only have one paddle? Somehow I have a bucketfull of them. I probably only use 2-3 of them anymore - but the others get kept around for friends borrowing boats or things like that.

jamesl2play
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Re: sea paddles

Post by jamesl2play »

Sorry but I do not agree that 'it is what you are used to' I think it is all about how much time and effort you want to put into perfecting an efficient paddling style.
The ideal paddling style is pretty well documented via numerous books and dvds and all of them emphasise the importance of reaching for the catch and rotation of the torso. An elite racing K1 paddler is bound to have an excellent style which makes the most out of these and other factors. It is obvious you will never fully achieve such a style in a sea kayak because the cockpit and seating position will restrict your movement but it provides an ideal target to aim for. This takes a long time to perfect and is probably down right uncomfortable to start with because it feels different and brings in to use other muscles. It is simple to increase or decrease the effort depending on conditions and paddling partners. Once perfected you should be just gliding as mentioned above.

So going back to the point of the original post, if you want to aim for an efficient style with all the benefits you gain from achieving that, you will never do it with short blades (197cm) because of the points I outlined in my first post. Short strokes, little rotation and your arm crossing over the centre line.

You need a totally different style with wings. I have only used them a few times. I believe you use a shorter blade than traditional paddles and used correctly the top arm comes across the centre line to allow the blade to be moved outwards at the hip. I am sure someone else could clarify this better than me.

Cranks, I have never understood these. In all my years paddling luckily I have never suffered any problems with my wrists. I also regularly change the position of my hands on the shaft so I cannot comment on them.

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immunogirl
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Re: sea paddles

Post by immunogirl »

The op'll be fine test paddling a boat with a 197 paddle for those short lengths. It'll force him to use a vertical stroke with a lot of rotation which isn't a bad thing & will force him towards some good habits.
jamesl2play wrote:Sorry but I do not agree that 'it is what you are used to' I think it is all about how much time and effort you want to put into perfecting an efficient paddling style.
If you're someone who doesn't have the stamina or core strength to keep up a high angle stroke all day long - then no matter how efficient that paddling stroke is, you're not capable of doing it. And then - yes... it is a case of it's all a case of what you're used to...
jamesl2play wrote: The ideal paddling style is pretty well documented via numerous books and dvds and all of them emphasise the importance of reaching for the catch and rotation of the torso. An elite racing K1 paddler is bound to have an excellent style which makes the most out of these and other factors. It is obvious you will never fully achieve such a style in a sea kayak because the cockpit and seating position will restrict your movement but it provides an ideal target to aim for. This takes a long time to perfect and is probably down right uncomfortable to start with because it feels different and brings in to use other muscles. It is simple to increase or decrease the effort depending on conditions and paddling partners. Once perfected you should be just gliding as mentioned above.
I would hesitate to call anything an "ideal" paddling style. Ideal for what purpose & for whom? Greenland paddles are ideal for those who use them for the reasons that they use them. And I have seen a fast racer with a greenland paddle beat fast racers in surf skis, k-1's and wing paddles.

However, you are wrong in saying that you can't fully achieve torso rotation & catch of an "ideal" style in a sea kayak. All you have to do is change how the cockpit is outfitted. Fit it so you're a bit higher in the seat and the seat is slippery enough to rotate and so that you hold your knees straight out in front of you.
jamesl2play wrote: So going back to the point of the original post, if you want to aim for an efficient style with all the benefits you gain from achieving that, you will never do it with short blades (197cm) because of the points I outlined in my first post. Short strokes, little rotation and your arm crossing over the centre line.

You need a totally different style with wings. I have only used them a few times. I believe you use a shorter blade than traditional paddles and used correctly the top arm comes across the centre line to allow the blade to be moved outwards at the hip. I am sure someone else could clarify this better than me.

Cranks, I have never understood these. In all my years paddling luckily I have never suffered any problems with my wrists. I also regularly change the position of my hands on the shaft so I cannot comment on them.
A wing paddle stroke can be used very efficiently with a euro paddle & with a greenland paddle. Wing paddle blades are similar sized to longer than a euro blade.

You're making a lot of generalizations about paddles - Unless you're 6 foot + & paddling a wide boat, I'd say your 215 cm paddle is actually too long for ideal (werner paddles do have a paddle length calculator on their website that goes by height, width of the boat and whether you're a high or low angle paddler and usually people are surprised that they should actually be using a shorter paddle) 197 is perfectly doable for what he wants, which is test paddling on relatively easy 10 km trips. I paddle regularly with my paddle between 200 & 205 cms. I'm irked with my lendal paddles 'cause the shafts don't come shorter than 210 cms, which is too long for me - especially with the gigamondous kinetic wing blades. I haven't been brave enough to take a hack saw to them yet, however.

As for cranks, I have shitty wrists that get irritated very easily and cranks have never improved anything for my wrists. Shaft size/shape has played a much bigger role in what I can use without my wrists aching/going numb. A narrow oblong shaft helps a lot.

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Re: sea paddles

Post by Rdscott »

Just a note

Ihave neglected to mention, I paddlewith cranks for a reason

2 years ago idislocated my shoulder badly,its still not 100% and hyperextends easily, onputting it back in the doctors rappeda nerve, if i paddle with a straight shaft forprolong periods 10km +or multi day paddling my arm from my shoulder down tomy hand including my littlefinger and next to it feellike they have cramp even without actuly having it.

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Curly67
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Re: sea paddles

Post by Curly67 »

MMMM Intersting topic! I`ve been paddling with a 220 Paddle and have had lot of Issues with my shoulders. I did Windermere the other day, from Newby Bridge to Waterhead and back, 22.5/23 miles round trip. Must be 8 or 9 times this year I`ve done this trip and it always leaves me feeling like an RTA victim! AT 5 foot 4 and 11 stone It seems it`s no wonder. According to the Lendel web site my ideal paddle length would be 205-210!!!
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