British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T Ford

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by tg »

@GB1

Very very broadly. Fish form wider forward of the middle of the boat, a fish needs a fin. Swede form wider aft of the middle of the boat, Swede for speed. British 'form' widest in the middle and usually more obviously derived from the greenland generic. I expect fully to be shot down now :-) But TITWISI.

Tim
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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by EK Sydney »

The day someone successfully designs a surfski rudder in a skeg position, that actually works like a ski rudder, retracts, and takes a hit without busting, is the day the world will change. I'm still trying to work out a way to do it......

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by johnb »

Didn't Karitek have such a rudder/skeg?...

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by OwenBurson »

It's little more than marketing

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by Graham T »

"I fully expect to be shot down" Hi Tim i'm sat at my anti aircraft guns ! I am not sure if you are saying that one hull form needs a skeg and another needs a rudder or not. If that is a point of view i'm not sure this is correct I could be wrong but thought the Nordkapp was Fish form and Paul Caffyn used one for his tests or certainly paddled a Nordy with a rudder. The Cetus has been described as the most maneuverable 18 foot long kayak and great for teaching edging yet I thought this to be Swede form.
Whatever I think Aled and JW should do two races first in their own kayaks and then swap over and see what happens, results please before I buy one !
I am kidding of course as paddler weight may influence kayak suitability for each of them. And when are the little people versions going to come out ?
My original thought about Greg Bartons comments was he wanted to increase sales but as I don't know him personaly thought better than to say so, but "marketing" yes quite possible.

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by Jim »

Graham T wrote:I see no reason why a kayak can't be designed to be quick, allow control by edging, and also use a rudder for it's steering when you want to get from A to B as efficiently as possible.
Nor do John Willacy and Mike Webb. I suspect Greg will not consider the Taran a 'British' sea kayak because it so clearly differs from the stereotype he paints as the 'British' sea kayak, similarly Mike will point out that it is deliberately different from the norm and explain that he is out to innovate and produce new and different boats and concepts to challenge the ways we are supposedly stuck into. John would probably admit that the Taran is proportioned to be eligible to race in the US 18 foot category. There can be nothing more British than a boat designed and manufactured on Anglesey, yet it is about the least 'British' boat in terms of steroetype since sea kayaking hit Europe and became a recreational activity.

There are pros and cons to skegs and rudders, they are absolutely not required on a large number of older British designs (don't let the Nordkapp fool you though!), but when retrofitted can make holding a course much easier. To a purist, if you can hold your course without deploying a drag surface like a skeg or rudder you should be able to go faster. To a realist, deploying the skeg or rudder means you can concentrate on putting energy into going forward instead of edging or sweeping all the time, and they will generally go faster. Why is there such polarity in viewpoints? Well there is a vast range of abilities out there and the sea is an ever changing wobbly thing. Those with exceptional abilty and a natural feel for getting the most out of the changing wobbly thing can go fastest without a skeg or rudder, most of the rest of us will go faster with one in many scenarios, but even then sometimes the wobbly thing will work just right with the hull to make it go faster without a skeg or rudder. Hard chine boats (Greenlandic based subset of 'British') generally go well on most points without a skeg or rudder because the chines do the same thing but to a lesser extent. When the chine disengages due to loading or wave action they can be horrendous to paddle, on the other hand if you learn to work with them you will find that they go so fast downwind that you can often disregard heading the right way and make faster progress paddling beam on for a while, and then turning and surfing downwind. You will have to cover more ground in total, but I have often made as much ground in my intended direction as people with skegs pointing in the intended direction. So having spent years paddling a hard chine boat without assistance, and eschewing skegs and rudders due to perception of failure and lost cargo space I finally got round to trying the Taran, and then I bought one. Why? because I liked it.

So for me the whole argument about different styles of kayak design has limited relevance to recreational paddlers*, each should go out and find something they are comfortable in and enjoy paddling whether it be smooth, hard chine, skegged or ruddered really should not matter (sponsons are a step too far, death to all sponson users). Try some boats and paddle what you like.

Beleive me, it has taken a bit of getting used to paddling with a rudder after over 20 years of paddling boats without (mostly WW boats if I'm honest) but I am getting used to the idea that I can turn without edging the Taran, the thing is, that works too!

Would I ever go back?
Yes of course, the Sea King is still in the garage in case I decide to go rockhopping or something, it will be a good few years before I want to do that in my shiny new boat!

*Competitive paddlers, whether racing or record breaking, have a whole different outlook and don't need me to tell them what to paddle, they will work it out for themselves.

Jim

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by andreadawn »

Jim wrote:(sponsons are a step too far, death to all sponson users)
I'm not quite ready to crawl into a corner and die quietly yet Jim! My boat has built in sponsons and I have a set of those dreaded clip on things that may assist in self rescues. Both work well for me. As does my rudder sometimes. My boat is hardly a performance boat, if performance means going fast. But it suits my needs as do my sponsons and rudder sometimes. I don't use the rudder much but sometimes it is welcome, and as yet the universe hasn't come to a violent and sudden end when I do so
;-)

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by Graham T »

Andrea I know you say the world has not come to an end yet but please be careful. If you have watched "Ice Age" you will be aware how much damage can be done by even one small squirrel trying to bury his nut

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by tg »

Graham T wrote:"I fully expect to be shot down" Hi Tim I'm sat at my anti aircraft guns ! I am not sure if you are saying that one hull form needs a skeg and another needs a rudder or not. If that is a point of view I'm not sure this is correct I could be wrong but thought the Nordkapp was Fish form and Paul Caffyn used one for his tests or certainly paddled a Nordy with a rudder. The Cetus has been described as the most maneuverable 18 foot long kayak and great for teaching edging yet I thought this to be Swede form.
Whatever I think Aled and JW should do two races first in their own kayaks and then swap over and see what happens, results please before I buy one !
I am kidding of course as paddler weight may influence kayak suitability for each of them. And when are the little people versions going to come out ?
My original thought about Greg Bartons comments was he wanted to increase sales but as I don't know him personaly thought better than to say so, but "marketing" yes quite possible.
Hi Graham,
GB1 wrote:Hi. As a newbie, can someone explain to me what is the basic difference between British and American style sea kayaks? I assume it's more than just the rudder?

Thanks.
tg wrote:@GB1

Very very broadly.
Struck me, too, that a little attention grabbing, intentional or not, might sell more product. No such thing as bad publicity. Design elements seem to be incredibly subtle and I can't, because I haven't paddled and indeed don't wish to paddle the vast plethora of boats out there, none are perfect, and won't, because of the spiralling nature of the 'kayak design' debate, allow myself to be sighted by your guns. Time for evasive action ;-)

Tim
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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by Yellerbelly »

a little attention grabbing, intentional or not, might sell more product. No such thing as bad publicity.
They've done this before. I remember some YouTube clips comparing how a Nordkapp bounced over a particular set of waves while an Epic cruised over them.

When Epic runs out this line again can we just flag it as SPAM?

. . . Ben

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by Graham T »

Ha HA Tim all in good fun as i'm sure you know. I don't get caught up in it all just some sort of nerdy interest, and a love to play and try things. The horses for courses thing applies and there are always compromises made it is just what is the best balance is for a person.
My priority was for a kayak that would hold my hand into bigger conditions, be good at surfing and rock hopping hence i bought an Xtreme not an A to B speed machine. The Greenlander tracks well with skeg and is not slow, and the Xplore S perhaps even a bit quicker, but I have a curiosity how I would like a kayak which has low drag as a higher priority, and where I can concentrate on using the paddle for power not for steering, i've just got to scratch that curiosity. To be honest I have been curious since seeing an Inuk several years ago, but have got to do precious little paddling since, so this is taking me a long time to get around to.

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by MikeB »

tg wrote:@GB1

Very very broadly. Fish form wider forward of the middle of the boat, a fish needs a fin. Swede form wider aft of the middle of the boat, Swede for speed. British 'form' widest in the middle and usually more obviously derived from the greenland generic. I expect fully to be shot down now :-) But TITWISI.

Tim
Hmm - Valley would suggest slightly differently - from their website, they provide their definition - "- - - the British style of sea-kayak design. This is a design style that many believe started with the original Nordkapp, in 1974 and the style has evolved ever since. In simple terms they have moderate ‘V’ hulls and soft (round) chines and are designed primarily to be skeged boats."

That the boat oft descibed as the father of modern kayaks (that'll be the Nordkapp) is either a superb, elegant thoroghbred - or an evil, tippy bastard of thing, may depend on much more than the skill of the paddler. That one of the premier paddlers in the world felt it necessary to fit a rudder to make it a viable long distance craft may also be telling.

A modern Nordkapp is certainly "fishform".

But to return to the question - the distinction between British boat and American boats. I suggest that many US boats will be larger, wider, probably more stable and generally designed to be paddled without having to master those tricky skills like edging. This may - or may not, be a good - or a bad thing. They may - or may not, require a rudder.

Mike.

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by nigelhatton »

Interesting subject here.

I have bought a Point 65N XP 18. I have never seen one before and the one I have now I havn't even sat in it yet. But it has a large bow volume, low rear deck, long waterline, day hatch and it's a more practical version of my Rapier 20. It looks nothing like a British style kayak but I guess it has pros and cons like most kayaks. Don't like the skeg and rudder idea though.
I did love my Ecobezhig, RIP, any second hand ones around?

http://www.point65.com/Default.asp?page ... 3&kayak=37

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by johnb »

The Epic is not a stable boat, quite tippy in fact (racing U in cross section).

I thought the Xp 18 had some similar characteristics to the Taran, particularly the flat section midships.

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by scotty »

I have the older epic18 with the smart track rudder system and dont find it unstable at all nor has anyone i have put in it,a nordkapp paddler loved the way he could relax let go of paddle and have a look round when in it,i often take pics with a non water proof camera as long as im not getting splashed. Maybe its a different hull shape from the newer one or you could be light. Running in following seas is fun and effortless you can change directions on waves if theyre not to steep. I have not noticed a loss of speed in rough water but have noticed the extra windage of a high volume empty boat compared with a submerged lv boat into strong headwinds slowing me. I wouldnt claim it behaves faultlessly in big steep waves where something shorter with more rocker would probably be easyer.Its best assests for me are ease of packing and the ability to catch rides on waves that may not be possible on some other kayaks,the hull speed is not something i can exploit very often and i dont think i would be any slower if it was a foot shorter.Just my thoughts.

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by chrism »

Strad wrote:I may be as old as a model T or something but I still regard

this as a surf ski:
That's a wave ski - always has been known as that in my experience (and I've paddled a few of them, both here and in Australia).
And this as something weird and American
A surf ski is just about as American as a wave ski is British!
a bit like American footballs that don't get kicked much, their surf skis don't get used for surfing much?
If you think Australian, South African and British surf skis don't do much surfing, then you've really not paid very much attention, given that surfing ability on ocean waves is one of the prime design criteria (why do you think they have a huge understern rudder otherwise?) Whilst surfing in my surf ski, I've noticed it's actually surf boards which don't get used for surfing much - they seem to spend most of their time as underwater seats whilst I do circuits around them to pick up green waves far further back than anybody using anything else has a hope of catching.

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by Strad »

chrism wrote:
Strad wrote:I may be as old as a model T or something but I still regard

this as a surf ski:
That's a wave ski - always has been known as that in my experience (and I've paddled a few of them, both here and in Australia).
Chris I was being a little tongue in cheek, but that said, Wave ski / surf ski has been pretty much interchangeable from the people I've spoken to, you'll see them called surf ski quite a bit on this very forum.
chrism wrote:
And this as something weird and American
A surf ski is just about as American as a wave ski is British!
a bit like American footballs that don't get kicked much, their surf skis don't get used for surfing much?
If you think Australian, South African and British surf skis don't do much surfing, then you've really not paid very much attention, given that surfing ability on ocean waves is one of the prime design criteria (why do you think they have a huge understern rudder otherwise?) Whilst surfing in my surf ski, I've noticed it's actually surf boards which don't get used for surfing much - they seem to spend most of their time as underwater seats whilst I do circuits around them to pick up green waves far further back than anybody using anything else has a hope of catching.

the only place I've noticed them 'live' is when I'm surfing at woolie or setting off for jaunts along the coast from there, there's some sort of club there and the surf ski's (in the american sense) mainly get used to get out back and paddle across the bay, not much surfing at all, but it may be the users not the craft. I certainly haven't seen them cutting across a wave face, pulling cut backs, aerials etc as you can in what you call a wave ski, this to me is more surfing then just catching a ride, although I accept this is incorrect for some uses of the word surf..
Old School?? I miss my AQII..
Graham Stradling

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by chrism »

johnb wrote:That new rudder is now available as an option to the Epics. See: http://www.epickayaks.com/news/news/epi ... s-upgrades
Looks very interesting. A kick up rudder which is a good foot or more further forwards than a normal overstern, and nice and deep - should change the 18X from being one of the worst at steering on waves to indisputably the best. I can still see potential issues with fragility and jamming though.

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by Jim »

nigelhatton wrote:Interesting subject here.

I have bought a Point 65N XP 18. I have never seen one before and the one I have now I havn't even sat in it yet. But it has a large bow volume, low rear deck, long waterline, day hatch and it's a more practical version of my Rapier 20. It looks nothing like a British style kayak but I guess it has pros and cons like most kayaks. Don't like the skeg and rudder idea though.
I did love my Ecobezhig, RIP, any second hand ones around?

http://www.point65.com/Default.asp?page ... 3&kayak=37
I had a look at one at Sea Kayak Oban whilst considering the Taran, I didn't have time to try it but my observations were that although as long it has less volume overall than the Taran, especially aft, and is much more boxy, not quite hard chined but with a much more pronounced chine than the Taran. In essence it actually looks more racy than the Taran, which might suit you but it didn't look as multi-purpose as the Taran which I am sure will prove and excellent camping boat. Oh yes, I was also mystified by the skeg and rudder combination, for anti-skegist like myself it seems to offer all the advantages of a rudder but then neutralise them with all the disadvantages of a skeg - I am of course looking at it from the point of view of having a box inside the boat! I'm not yet convinced by the skeg-rudder, yes the placement is correct but you still get a box in the rear tank and I have concerns (probably ungrounded if I took more time to look at one and understand the control system) about lining it up for retraction or accidentally steering with it retracted and damaging or jamming it. Next time I go to Karitek I'll have to time it so Geoff isn't busy fitting keel strips and get him to show me how it works (not that I'll be retrofitting one, just ought to understand it in case my concerns are rubbish).

I like the way the XP18 has reverse sheer like a speed boat :-)

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by Kokk »

Graham T wrote: The Cetus has been described as the most maneuverable 18 foot long kayak and great for teaching edging yet I thought this to be Swede form.
The most maneuverable 18 foot long kayak is without a doubt the Arrow Empower! It is more maneuverable than a SKUK Romany
The Arrow designs reminds me a bit about a mix of Tiderace designs and Nigel Foster designs, then improved a hundred times ;)

BTW Zegul is also coming out with a Taran/pace18 style kayak, designed by an Australian bloke

The Zegul Velocity
Image

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by chrism »

Strad wrote:I certainly haven't seen them cutting across a wave face, pulling cut backs, aerials etc as you can in what you call a wave ski, this to me is more surfing then just catching a ride, although I accept this is incorrect for some uses of the word surf..
I certainly can't do any of that on my ski - to be fair, I wasn't doing much of that sort of thing when paddling a waveski! Though you'll see plenty of mention on this forum (some on this thread) of people surfing sea kayaks, and I doubt they're doing much of that either. I also don't think Steve King does much in the way of cut backs when surfing the Severn Bore ;)

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by Pete »

Kokk wrote: BTW Zegul is also coming out with a Taran/pace18 style kayak, designed by an Australian bloke

The Zegul Velocity
Image
I've seen the Pace, it doesn't look at all like a Taran.

When you say the Velocity is "designed by an australian bloke", I think you must mean this guy, as designed implies something new, I just did a cut and paste in photoshop of the Taran over the image you've posted, the only new design elements that are obvious in this admittedly basic comparison are the deckline configuration and the addition of a day hatch.

I'm happy be corrected, but it seems like someone's taking credit for the hard work done on Anglesey by Messrs. Willacy & Webb and then taking production to an EU subsidised production base in Estonia to cash in on their innovation. Don't worry though, I'm sure it won't be long before Charles Huang Dong from the Foo Kyu Kayak Co in Shingzang province does some even more innovative "design" like adding some sea horses or dolphins to identify their unique branding and undercuts Zegul with their Foo Kyu Velocette Ratan model.

The problem with buying these cheaper boats where very little investment has been made in true "development" has taken place is that you eventually reduce the funds available to the true innovators to continue developing and innovating.

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by Kokk »

Sorry dude, wrong bloke ;) His name is Rob Mercer
The Zegul Velocity is 2cm wider than Taran, a bit longer, and have less volume in the bow.

And you are just fooling yourself if you think that Anglesey is the most inoative place for kayakdesigns.

The Pace 18 seems like a rip off form the Kirton Inuk
The Taran seems to be more like Roocpools version of Kayakpro Nemo, both Rob Feloy design

Zegul Velocity is designed to compete in the same genre, thats why its may resemble kayaks like Kayakpro Nemo, Kirton Inuk, Rockpool Taran, Tiderace Pace 18 and Point 65 xp18

And dont come here and tell me that Anglesey designers dont copy, they look almost the same everyone with smal variations, exept the Taran who is sort of a copy of Nemo.

But the most inovative kayaks i got, is the danish Arrow Kayaks, buildt at same factory as Tiderace, who delivers better quality then what you can dream of getting at Anglesey. With preformance that makes the thread headline more or less true.

I dont think you can call the velocity a cheap boat eather, I have orderd a 3D C-core construction version who have a RRP of 3450 Euro, its the same construction as my current Arrow Play who is estonian buildt. And after two years of bashing in beaches, rocks, dragging it loaded up stone beaches, it only have some smal cosmetic scrathes.
It have hold up better than my all of my earlyer boats (Rockpool Alaw, Tiderace Xcite, Tiderace Xplore)

Back to topic: No british seakayak design is not obsolete, There are some exelent british kayaks like NS Atlantic and Polar, but that is not new and inovative design, Its just a good old and functional design with exelent preformance that has evolved since the eigthies. The british sea kayak design is a poor design if its speed you are after, then you need straigther lines with low rocker/long waterline, not the teardrop design with lots of rocker that the british design is known for.
P&H also puts out some great designs lately, like the Cetus, and the playboat Aries. But those are not what i consider british design, but mabee we are entering a new era.

But check out the Arrow Empower if any of you get the chance, thats the most innavative as you get for a seakayak!

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by Aled »

Those readers who made it to the end of the previous post without being insulted will be pleased to know that Tor Inge Warholm (aka: Kokk) sells Arrow Kayaks, Tahe/Zegul and P&H kayaks at his shop in Norway: http://ystute.mystore.no/index.php

I'm sure he's always available for impartial sales advice should you be considering buying any of these products.

Aled Williams

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by gizmo »

Tor Inge Warholm (aka: Kokk) ..evidently.
Paul

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by YvonneB »

The british sea kayak design is a poor design if its speed you are after, then you need straigther lines with low rocker/long waterline, not the teardrop design with lots of rocker that the british design is known for.
Pardon me for interruptig this big boys' conversation but I would have thought speed is not the only consideration in a sea kayak. Staying sky side up in waves, such as you tend to get on the sea, is surely just as important. It would be to me anyway.

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by EK Sydney »

Just to clarify a few things here, before the typical trial by forum takes place. The poster laying accusations of copying is way out of line, but I can understand the harsh verdict from the image in the catalogue.
The Velocity is still a drawing on paper. The boat draws from the Epic skis I've been paddling for the past few years, the Epic 18, the Taran, the Rapier, the old Think skis with a flat planing hull, the QCC 7000 and even a local Australian boat called a Mirage. It has been an idea in Robs head since we first saw the Epic Endurance nearly 10 years ago. That image above is a draft brochure image that we pulled straight off the production line when we saw how ridiculously similar to the Taran it looked, it was an artists impression and sloppy at best. I have no idea where Kokk got it from nor why he would post it here other than to cause mischief, but it was definitely not for public consumption, and looks nothing like the plans now advanced down the line.
Anyone who knows our business in Australia knows we are Rockpool dealers and hugely supportive of their brilliant designs, so it's an insult to think that we could be accused of ripping of their singular idea. To say we're not ripping off anyone would be a lie, we're in fact ripping off everyone, and adding our own twist to the genre. It will be no more a ripoff of the Taran or the 18X or the P6518 than the Etain is of the GT or Cetus or XCite. The Etain is a stand alone dead set original design, just the latest in the range having watched the way the designs are evolving.
When the Velocity is released, still a long way off, we hope it will add to these genres. The features it will incorporate, including expedition fit out and a completely unique rudder design come from a lifetime of paddling big water and long trips, and substantial experience in a wide range of so called 'performance' sea kayaks. Anyone who has come across Rob Mercer will know that the guy thinks very independently and wouldn't put his name to a copy boat.
Apologies for the lengthy sales-oriented post but forums have a way of being judge, jury and executioner especially when they're riled by a poster as prickly as Kokk, and I wanted to put forward a correction on the record before it got out of hand.

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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by Kokk »

YvonneB wrote:Pardon me for interruptig this big boys' conversation but I would have thought speed is not the only consideration in a sea kayak. Staying sky side up in waves, such as you tend to get on the sea, is surely just as important. It would be to me anyway.
No speed is not the only consideration, but for some favors speed more than others, and thats good. Its good to have variation, so in days with choppy waters you take out the good old traditional brit boat, and for calmer days you can get out a kayak from these new breeds.

But excuse me if someone got offended, I only wanted to point out that there where many new and exiting boats out there in the style of earlyer mentioned boats.
And i must admit that i got a bit in defencive mode when Pete's post kind of portrayed it as it was only the Anglesey boats who was up to par, and who was the most innovative designers. Sure they do great designm and I love british design myself, but its not the only fish in the bowl, and designers there takes there inspiration from many places, and as EK sydney put it: they rip off everyone, and so does british designers.

And excuse me once again if someone got offended, English is not my native and perhaps some of the words was a bit badly chosen.
But its a intresting topic with boat design, and i got carried away.

And yes Aled, I have those kayaks in my shop, and its a reason for that, they are very good kayaks, as is Tiderace and i hope you do well with the Pace 18, its looks like a very good looking fast boat, reminds me a bit of Inuk, and Im not saying its a copy, but you must have had it in mind.


And to my offence Pets post is just as prickly as mine in my view ;) (PS! had to look up prickly, newer heard about that before)

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JohnA
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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by JohnA »

Kokk wrote:Sorry dude, wrong bloke ;)
I dont think you can call the velocity a cheap boat eather, I have orderd a 3D C-core construction version who have a RRP of 3450 Euro, its the same construction as my current Arrow Play who is estonian buildt.
Have ordered or will order ? Since the design is still being finalised, it seems odd for Zegul to be taking orders.

Kokk
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Re: British style sea kayaks are as obsolete as the Model T

Post by Kokk »

Have ;)

There is many new intresting designs today, and lucky we are for that, it gives more diversity.

At the moment it seems like kayaks with no overhang is getting more popular, inspired from surfskis. Point 65 also have a surfski inspired from the offshore AHTS vessle Bourbon Orca with negative bow, who the local shipyard have had good sucsess with and redused drag and fuel consumption i big seas.
You can see the orca against a traditional bow design on this video
The funny part is that i have a friend that works on the design office, and the official statement is that the designers got inspired from Orcas and vikingships when designing the X-Bow design that they have called the Orca bow. But the designer himself says that the inspiration came from the Alien in Ridley Scotts famous movies ;)

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