Sea kayak sailing.^

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Douglas Wilcox
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Sea kayak sailing.^

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:53 pm

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We had a great day kayak sailing yesterday.

I hope this video will give an idea of how much fun kayak sailing can be..

Douglas :o)

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Yakdiver
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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Yakdiver » Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:01 pm

Excellent video Douglas well done
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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:26 pm

Thank you Richard. I was an early adopter of GoPro but the "GoPro wide" was not very satisfactory and rather put me off video. I am much happier with the results from the GoPro HD.

Douglas

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by wobblypeter » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:17 pm

Douglas
The new sail looks excellent, does it stop the flutter that I experience when sailing close up wind . Also how is the new mast support working?
Must say sailing adds a whole new dimension to the kayak experience.
a convert Peter

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MikeB
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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by MikeB » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:43 pm

Hmph. I suppose I'm going to have to give this new fangled sailing stuff a try! I spent the evening drilling holes in the Xcape to fit towing gear (always traumatic) - and more holes will be needed to fit a pump, once I decide what sort of pump to fit - so a few more holes to fit a big hanky on a pole should be no problem!

Mike.

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PhilAyr
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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by PhilAyr » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:12 pm

That's a great video Douglas. It does capture some of the atmosphere from yesterday's trip, and what a trip that was ! Thanks for having me along.

I have to admit that before yesterday I was somewhat ambivalent to kayak sailing,

Having fought against a F4-F5 on the way out, the blast back to Ayr from Bracken Bay was the fastest and most exciting I have ever experienced. I do admit to having a few heart in mouth moments when an unexpected gust would catch me out when adjusting the sail, but I would put that down to a lack of experience.

A great big thankyou Douglas for your help on the installation of the Flat earth sail to my boat, and for your words of encouragement on yesterday's trip, not forgeting the help from bothTony and David.

I can't believe that I am actually hoping for a bit of wind for our next trip !
MikeB wrote:Hmph. I suppose I'm going to have to give this new fangled sailing stuff a try! I spent the evening drilling holes in the Xcape to fit towing gear (always traumatic) - and more holes will be needed to fit a pump, once I decide what sort of pump to fit - so a few more holes to fit a big hanky on a pole should be no problem!

Mike.
....

Go on Mike get one... You will not regret it.

Phil ( yet another convert )

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Skerryvore
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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Skerryvore » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:52 am

Loved the video Douglas & Team, looks and feels just great "fun" that's what it's all about.
Wonder how long it will be till the first SCA callander trip say's " Sails only trip" if you want to keep up?

Mike: Go on you know you want one! I have an old windsurf sail of myler that might do for you?

WobblyPeter: A real convert! He's a great sailor with his , broadreach,downwind,upwind, & it goes up in strong winds!

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Jim
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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Jim » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:18 pm

I have yet to start drilling holes in my boat, unfortunately I spent my sail budget whilst waiting for the boat - definitely maybe will get one at some point though!

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by magicbean » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:34 pm

What was the sailing kit you used? Was it specific to your kayak or a general purpose one? I'd like to fit something to my Tarpon 100.

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by magicbean » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:03 pm

magicbean wrote:What was the sailing kit you used? Was it specific to your kayak or a general purpose one? I'd like to fit something to my Tarpon 100.
Oh wait - I googled around. Looks like a Flat earth.

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Curly67
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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Curly67 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:47 pm

Looks like fun but there`s no way I`m about to start drilling holes in my Taran!
Rockpool Taran

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maryinoxford
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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by maryinoxford » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:59 pm

Curly67 wrote:Looks like fun but there`s no way I`m about to start drilling holes in my Taran!
Takes us back to WindPaddle. For all the rude things said about it, at least all it needs is a pair of deck dees to clip on to.
Not in Oxford any more...

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Jim
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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Jim » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:19 pm

Curly67 wrote:Looks like fun but there`s no way I`m about to start drilling holes in my Taran!
Use self tappers then :-)

Mind you, a pilot hole is still safest, I think we used to go 0.5mm under the screw size for tapping into composites, regular sized pilot hole could still break out a bit.
Or find some very strong glue and don't drill any holes, all the components could be surface mounted.
A word of warning though, Mike builds normally unloaded areas of the Taran deck (all his designs in fact) quite lightly to save weight, so think carefully about the mast step position and add local reinforcement if necessary - I'm hoping I will find it can go near the bulkhead or hatch.

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:54 pm

Peter>
The new sail looks excellent, does it stop the flutter that I experience when sailing close up wind . Also how is the new mast support working?
Hi Peter, I am glad to be able to preach to the converted! The leach of the classic line of Flat Earth sails does motor when going up wind but the twist does make it very forgiving in gusty weather. The new Code Zero 0.8 which I have on test is a fuller sail with a tighter leach. It does not seem to point quite as high as the classic 0.8 that you have but it does seem to go faster albeit about 5 degrees further off the wind. Off the wind the Code zero seems to hold laminar flow better than the classic sail when you accelerate down a wave. The Classic sail backwinds more easily.

The new mast support is great, totally solid when rigged with two side stays and a back stay, even in wind which was gusting to 21knots on the shore. The only problem is the mast foot is now seperate from the mast so it's another bit to look after. Maybe Mick could put some shockcord in to hold the bits together like tent poles.

Mike>
I suppose I'm going to have to give this new fangled sailing stuff a try!
You would be mad not to Mike, apart from Jim (whose wallet is still empty after the paint job on his Taran), all our crew have now got sails. If you do decide to give it a go let me know and I will give you a hand fitting it. I can also advise about a better fitting kit than Karitek supply as standard. Fortunately Geoff is very happy to supply mast and sail only and let you choose your own chandlery.

Phil>
the blast back to Ayr from Bracken Bay was the fastest and most exciting I have ever experienced.
Good on yer Phil, what conditions for a very first sail! No mamby pamby nonsense from you, you just obeyed the command "Unleash the Sails" :o)

Skerryvore>
I have an old windsurf sail of myler that might do for you?
Hi Alan, David and I wondered about doing this as well but once we saw the Flat Earth rigs we put all thoughts of sewing machines away!

Curly67>
Looks like fun but there`s no way I`m about to start drilling holes in my Taran!
Curly, why ever not? The Taran is probably one of the best kayaks to fit a sail to. Look at the Aussie's recent North Reef expedition! A few holes are not going to spoil it as much as scratches from a beach. The Taran is designed to be used, it's not an ornament! Mary's right if you want to sail and don't want to drill holes you will end up with a windpaddle on a Taran!! How uncool would that be? Much better to get the drill out! :o)

Douglas :o)

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zec01
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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by zec01 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:10 pm

Wow...........that certainly looks like something that would be of a benefit to me,
I am going to have to look into them

Great video
If it hurts, you are still alive!

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Curly67
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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Curly67 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:15 pm

LOL

I`m not even tempted yet. I can still cover distance at a good pace under my own steam.

That said, I will have to drill a few holes when I fit a pump!
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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by mick m » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:20 pm

read Marks blog on the North Reaf trip, I think you wold be tempted, Im curently lusting over a taren .
Mary, Iv just reseaved my Fethercraft Cahuna, over the next cupal of weeks im looking at designing a new sail mast bace plate to work on it , not having a ruder isent a big consern as my SOF boat dosent eather.

The shock cord idear has merit .

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:08 pm

Mick>
not having a ruder isent a big consern as my SOF boat dosent eather.
In the video clip, I am paddle sailing the Delphin without a skeg as it got stuck up. Maybe I used a couple of stern rudders more than if the skeg was working but it shows how well balanced these rigs are.

Douglas

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by EK Sydney » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:50 am

A word of warning though, Mike builds normally unloaded areas of the Taran deck (all his designs in fact) quite lightly to save weight, so think carefully about the mast step position and add local reinforcement if necessary - I'm hoping I will find it can go near the bulkhead or hatch.
Good advice….
For our North Reef Trip, we actually fabricated a carbon bracket to transfer the downward pressure a sail creates through the gunwales, rather than directly onto the deck.
Image
That was a lesson learned having split the deck on my Taran in testing. You'll either need a bracket like ours, not that easy to pre-fab, or very serious underdeck reinforcement. The beauty of this set up is that you only have to drill two holes, and when you don't want to have the fitting on the boat you just screw in some shorter bolts & preserve the seal of the laminate (whihc have a resin faux moulded-in base on the interior of the deck). All of the stays etc are fitted to the bracket.
Image

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Jim » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:18 am

Hey Mark, I really like the external bracket idea, avoids the need to clutter up the valuable internal space with extra stuff.

My initial thoughts were to add a band of unidirectional carbon in a hoop in line with the mast, possibly adding a removable strut or kingpost to spread the load down to the hull, but your solution is quite elegant.
Only thing is it will partly obscure my excellent deck graphics. I wonder if a thick piece of clear acrylic or similar could be used instead of a carbon laminate? Has anyone had a go at calculating or measuring the mast foot compression?

Jim

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Yakdiver » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:27 am

This is my mast plate that I made for my SOT as I thought the plasitic deck would not be strong enough
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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by mick m » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:32 am

Jim wrote:Hey Mark, I really like the external bracket idea, avoids the need to clutter up the valuable internal space with extra stuff.

My initial thoughts were to add a band of unidirectional carbon in a hoop in line with the mast, possibly adding a removable strut or kingpost to spread the load down to the hull, but your solution is quite elegant.
Only thing is it will partly obscure my excellent deck graphics. I wonder if a thick piece of clear acrylic or similar could be used instead of a carbon laminate? Has anyone had a go at calculating or measuring the mast foot compression?

Jim
Iv never botherd to have it calculated, but it is quite signifigant , Im playing with lezan , a bulit prufe glas , that can be bent to fit a deck, the only thin you need is an industrial plastic baking set p, which a naboring factory has . so far its stil being played with , Im looking at molding deck plates for fethercraft folders at present. the plates Mark and Rob made up look good, and I hope to se one this weekend

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Graham T » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:13 pm

Those plates are what I had in mind when thinking it would be possible to avoid drilling holes into the kayak, stolen in part from a earlier picture I had seen of the purple Taran.
It should be possible to mold in a hard wood plate sufficient to screw the mast foot to the loads here should not require much meat. To prevent movement of the plate I was going to mold into the compass recess, but tethers to the backstay, forstay and deck line anchor points could stop movement.
If necassary a thin silicone bead would prevent the plate shifting around anyway, as it is way tough in this direction.
I had wondered about molding in stainless plates bent up for shroud attachment points also.
I also considered shaping a smallish wood plate to accept the mast foot siliconed onto the deck and than a four point lash up to take the lateral loads but cant know for sure what would or would not work until playing around.
I still do not want to drill holes in my kayak until I have had the chance to play with set up.

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Jim » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:33 pm

mick m wrote:
Jim wrote:Hey Mark, I really like the external bracket idea, avoids the need to clutter up the valuable internal space with extra stuff.

My initial thoughts were to add a band of unidirectional carbon in a hoop in line with the mast, possibly adding a removable strut or kingpost to spread the load down to the hull, but your solution is quite elegant.
Only thing is it will partly obscure my excellent deck graphics. I wonder if a thick piece of clear acrylic or similar could be used instead of a carbon laminate? Has anyone had a go at calculating or measuring the mast foot compression?

Jim
Iv never botherd to have it calculated, but it is quite signifigant , Im playing with lezan , a bulit prufe glas , that can be bent to fit a deck, the only thin you need is an industrial plastic baking set p, which a naboring factory has . so far its stil being played with , Im looking at molding deck plates for fethercraft folders at present. the plates Mark and Rob made up look good, and I hope to se one this weekend
Lexan is a brand name for polycarbonate, I have a local plastics fabricator whom we work with from time to time who has all the equipment to form the bracket in polycarbonate or in acrylic. They tend to be quite busy, but will take on one off jobs it's just hard to know when they will get around to it! I should probably prototype in glass or carbon composite first and then see what they can do. It's even harder to know when I will get around to it!

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by sleepybubble » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:06 pm

Question for the more experienced sailors than I. I have been messing around with my home made rig all is good and its quite fun however I have noticed one issue and I want to know what other folks standard practice for dealing with it is. I have an idea myself but just wanted to check if it is what other people do. (Just for clarity my rig is as close to a FEKS as can be).

When deploying the sail in stronger wind (this was about F5 gusting 6) I had been deploying with the sheet completely loose so the mast goes up depowered. However pulling the sheet back to bring power on was quite tricksy. I had thought to mark the sheet at a point where I know it is going to be powered and then making it fast before deploying. I have not tried this yet as I have been making myself familiar with stuff on a slowly slowly style approach.

If I do this is there going to be some overwhelming snatch load that might catch me out, or do things just sort themselves out naturally? Is there anything to watch out for with this approach? Do people deal with this issue differently? Am I just being a cissy and should I just exert more effort in bringing the boom around into the wind with the sheet?

Thanks muchly,

Mark

ps. I know I should be learning in lighter winds but beggers can't be choosers and for six months of the year F5/6 IS lighter winds!

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:27 pm

Hello Mark,

In that strength of wind I launch the sail on a broad reach not a dead down wind run, I also try and have good boat speed as I launch which takes the load off. Before I launch I have the sail sheeted in and cleated in a position that I know will still spill some of the power on a broad reach (after I launch, I would need to sheet in a little more to stay on a broad reach).

The elastic at the sheet attachment and the inbuilt twist in the Flat Earth sail soften the shock load on launching. If you want to sail in this sort of wind :o) you should buy a Flat Earth rig. It is unlikely that a first home made sail will have the right tension, twist and shape in the various parts of the sail.

If you do launch with the sheet not cleated the boom will fly forward of the mast if you are on a run. It is tricky to sheet in from this position on a run so I would use my paddle to turn the bow of the kayak away from downwind (in the direction that will leave the sheet and boom on the down wind side of the mast). Once you are on a broad reach direction, you can gradually sheet in more easily than if you are in the dead downwind direction..

Have fun!

Douglas :o)

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by sleepybubble » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:03 pm

Douglas,

Thanks, at least my logic was not totally flawed then. Few handy wee tips there too, the 'be moving when deploying' to counteract some of the shock load is obvious when its pointed out :) I'm sure its also obvious I have zero sailing background so I guess its the actual sailing I have to learn.

You're of course right I would be best with an off the shelf sail but in our household and in 'these times' any toys for myself are so far down the priority list that unless I made my own it would never happen. I am going to have to cut up that old tent though for some rip stop as the 'shower curtain sail cloth' is aquiring more gaffa tape than is sensible :)

Perhaps I ought to go and do some reading on 'twist' before I hit the sewing machine again.

Many thanks,

Mark

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:46 pm

Hi Mark,

Sorry for suggesting the expensive solution!I remember the "watch the pennies" time of life well! Even working as a doctor, we could not afford carpets for a very small first house. I ended up sewing not sails but old carpets together so we were not walking on bare floor boards and our cooker was from a skip.

You can see what I mean about launching the sail at the start of the videoclip. The wind is blowing parallel to the clifs but you can see I start off heading in towards the cliffs at about a 45 degree angle to directly downwind. You will also notice that as soon as I unleash the sail, the sheet (bright yellow) is tight because I already had it cleated sheeted in.

Video link.

Hope that helps.
Douglas

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Jim
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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by Jim » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:50 pm

sleepybubble wrote: Perhaps I ought to go and do some reading on 'twist' before I hit the sewing machine again.
You need "The aero-hydrodynamics of sailing" by C A Marchaj.
A copy probably costs almost as much as a sail, and is much more difficult to undestand!
(I will confess to not having read it, course notes are much easier going - hmm my boss' copy is 6 feet away, no excuse next time I'm looking for something to help me drop off then).

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Re: Sea kayak sailing.

Post by sleepybubble » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:50 pm

Jim wrote:
sleepybubble wrote: Perhaps I ought to go and do some reading on 'twist' before I hit the sewing machine again.
You need "The aero-hydrodynamics of sailing" by C A Marchaj.
A copy probably costs almost as much as a sail, and is much more difficult to undestand!
(I will confess to not having read it, course notes are much easier going - hmm my boss' copy is 6 feet away, no excuse next time I'm looking for something to help me drop off then).
I was thinking more of just some general reading around the concepts using dodgy sources on the internet. Which I can put into practice via the means of bodgery. Along the lines of a sailing terminology source to find out if twist means what I think it does. After all sailors use some funny words, I'd expect to find a sheet on a bed!

Mark

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