RIP SCA Touring Calendar

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MikeB
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RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by MikeB » Tue May 24, 2011 10:59 pm

Very, very sad news on the SCA Website. 30 years of companionship, conviviality and wonderful trips down the drain.

Without the Touring Calendar I doubt I'd have got into sea paddling - it was thanks to the generosity of fellow paddlers in organising trips that I, and thousands like me over the years, had the opportunity to find like-minded peers to paddle with outside the ethos of a club.

A dark day for Scottish sea kayaking. Mike.

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Mark R » Tue May 24, 2011 11:09 pm

'Following long and extensive discussions between the SCA Board and the SCA Touring Committee about the nature of SCA Tours and the best ways to manage and develop these activities, the SCA Touring Committee has resigned with immediate effect (19th May 2011) and has withdrawn the 2011 Touring Calendar. The board would like to thank them for all their hard work over many years.'

How peculiar. What exactly were the bones of contention, as highlighted above?
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Helen M
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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Helen M » Wed May 25, 2011 6:20 am

Dark days indeed.

H - x

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by adrian j pullin » Wed May 25, 2011 1:36 pm

Mark R wrote: How peculiar. What exactly were the bones of contention, as highlighted above?
Maybe irreconcilable differences on how to cook the seagull?
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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Jim » Wed May 25, 2011 2:26 pm

It MAY be something to do with differences of opinion about the amount of 'red tape' required to run SCA trips.

I vaguely recall some talk about something at WWPF, I may have jumped to entirely the wrong conclusion though.

I offer no personal opinion on 'red tape' since in this day and age it is more and more necessary, however much we would like to avoid it.

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Scots_Charles_River » Wed May 25, 2011 3:43 pm

If you read the minutes, of the board and commitees, you will see what happened.

I'm sure a new calendar will be out for next year.

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by ian johnston » Wed May 25, 2011 4:17 pm

Scots_Charles_River wrote:If you read the minutes, of the board and commitees, you will see what happened.

I'm sure a new calendar will be out for next year.
And these can be accessed where?

regards

Ian

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by orkfay » Wed May 25, 2011 4:42 pm

Here's one set of minutes
http://www.canoescotland.org/LinkClick. ... D&tabid=81
suspect next one is the relevant one

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by MikeB » Wed May 25, 2011 5:20 pm

Scots_Charles_River wrote:If you read the minutes, of the board and commitees, you will see what happened.

I'm sure a new calendar will be out for next year.
Really? On what basis do you think?

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Mark R » Wed May 25, 2011 5:24 pm

orkfay wrote:Here's one set of minutes
http://www.canoescotland.org/LinkClick. ... D&tabid=81
suspect next one is the relevant one
Quote: 'a long and wide-ranging discussion'

We all know what that means, in minutes-speak.
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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Scots_Charles_River » Wed May 25, 2011 5:38 pm

ian johnston wrote:
Scots_Charles_River wrote:If you read the minutes, of the board and commitees, you will see what happened.

I'm sure a new calendar will be out for next year.
And these can be accessed where?

regards

Ian
Basically the 'leaders' of the SCA Tours would have to have NGB quals. this would be phased in over time.

Nick

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by MikeB » Wed May 25, 2011 5:51 pm

Scots_Charles_River wrote:
Basically the 'leaders' of the SCA Tours would have to have NGB quals. this would be phased in over time.

Nick
At what level? And over what timescale?

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Scots_Charles_River » Wed May 25, 2011 7:26 pm

MikeB wrote:
Scots_Charles_River wrote:
Basically the 'leaders' of the SCA Tours would have to have NGB quals. this would be phased in over time.

Nick
At what level? And over what timescale?
Don't know but 4 Star leaders or Coaches would meet the 'NGB' criteria.

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by MikeB » Wed May 25, 2011 8:22 pm

Scots_Charles_River wrote:
Don't know but 4 Star leaders or Coaches would meet the 'NGB' criteria.
A bit of a difference there.

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by sleepybubble » Wed May 25, 2011 8:45 pm

MikeB wrote:
Scots_Charles_River wrote:
Don't know but 4 Star leaders or Coaches would meet the 'NGB' criteria.
A bit of a difference there.
Quote from those minutes linked above...
The opinions which emerged indicated that the current coaching qualifications (4 and 5 star leader etc) are felt to be not fit to this specific purpose relating the SCA tours. However some form of recognised competency system was required for Touring but the question remained as to how this framework could be devised.
The sticking point appears to be over managed tours. The retoric indicates a whole new bunch of badges will have to aquired to operate as a commercial provider, and that the board does not feel a combination of L2 coach/4* leader or L3 coach/5* leader is suffiecient for commercial outfits. Thats just my interpretation though.

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Owen » Wed May 25, 2011 8:53 pm

Scots_Charles_River wrote:
MikeB wrote:
Scots_Charles_River wrote:
Basically the 'leaders' of the SCA Tours would have to have NGB quals. this would be phased in over time.

Nick
At what level? And over what timescale?
Don't know but 4 Star leaders or Coaches would meet the 'NGB' criteria.
The remit of a 4 star leader, new style level 2 with MWE or old style level 3 would not cover most of the tours in the calender. They would need to have 5 star + new style level ? + advanced water endorsment, (but you can get that as it doesn't yet exist). So, unless your already a level 4 you can't run any of the trips.

As I see it members could force yet another EGM and propose a vote of no confidence in the board and sack the lot (not sure if that can be done legally). Or we could have a mass resignation from the SCA, whether someone forms another association or not is anyones guess. Either way the SCA as it stands has proved itself to be anti-touring, anti-adventure and has nothing to offer the non-competive paddler.

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Scots_Charles_River » Wed May 25, 2011 10:08 pm

They offer lots of stuff for the non-competitive paddler eg Tay descent tour, Glasgow Paddlefest, Coaching support, Cheap courses for club volunteers, coaching scholarships for club coaches, WWPF, Negotiated dam releases, subsidised coaching courses for teachers, susbsidised club volunteer weekends.

I don't know the details but I would imagine it's the 'Sea' Tours rather than 'River' tours that are the issues. Maybe you need to get a 'Sea Director' on the board ? They are currently looking for a 'Club director' on the board.

I'm sure it will be resolved and a new calendar setup for next year.

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Mark R » Wed May 25, 2011 10:13 pm

Owen wrote:the SCA as it stands has proved itself to be anti-touring, anti-adventure and has nothing to offer the non-competive paddler.
You've reached this conclusion because they want to re-think how to make organised tours safer???

Come spend some time in the mind-bending alternative reality which is being 'governed' by BCU/ CE...
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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Jim » Wed May 25, 2011 10:50 pm

Owen wrote:Either way the SCA as it stands has proved itself to be anti-touring, anti-adventure and has nothing to offer the non-competive paddler.
Surely you would have to agree that it would look like dual standards if the SCA were to specify appropriate levels of qualifications for people to lead groups from clubs or centres, and then not require that their own trip leaders be equally qualified?

How to go about that without ruffling feathers?

Well some people will always be ruffled whatever help may be offered, it's catch 22.
Personally I welcome change that makes us stronger under scrutiny, as long as it is not simply change for the sake of change.

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by MikeB » Thu May 26, 2011 11:19 am

There's a major difference between leading a commercial group from a centre, and organising an outing for a group of peers within the context of a club. What you're suggesting is that anyone who takes on the responsibilty of facilitating his pals going on the water needs to have a formal coaching qualification?

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by MikeB » Thu May 26, 2011 12:28 pm

Scots_Charles_River wrote: I don't know the details but I would imagine it's the 'Sea' Tours rather than 'River' tours that are the issues. Maybe you need to get a 'Sea Director' on the board ? They are currently looking for a 'Club director' on the board.
I think you'll find the issue revolves around qualifications and that isn't just restricted to the Sea Touring section.
I'm sure it will be resolved and a new calendar setup for next year.
Please, expand on how this will happen? You've said this twice so it'd be helpful to have the basis of your assertion.

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Jim » Thu May 26, 2011 2:04 pm

MikeB wrote:There's a major difference between leading a commercial group from a centre, and organising an outing for a group of peers within the context of a club.
There is which is why I used the word 'appropriate' before the word qualifications. I actually agree with the viewpoint put forward in the minutes on behalf of the touring committee that none of the current awards are appropriate because the leadership seems to be entangled in coaching rather than a standalone sytem for confirming the competence of those who will lead trips. I have a lot more thoughts but they aren't really relevant, and nor is your focussing on requirement for clubs, this was about requirements for SCA tours.
If the association is to maintain a legally strong position in the modern world it needs to be able to introduce a formal system of assessment of competence to run trips that have no more target than simply going somewhere (i.e. not part of a coahching progression) - to me it seems obvious that different levels of qualification are needed for club trips, compared to NGB trips, compared to commercially run trips. Any time a trip is openly advertised (so some ofthe people enrolling maqy be unknown to the leaders) using the name of a club, NGB or centre as an indication that it will be a safe and well run trip, there needs to be an audit trail to back this up which means some form of qualification or assessment of trip leaders, it may also imply a need for risk assessing various aspects of a trip (and for example a regular route could have a permanent risk assessment that is reviewed from time to time). Peer trips are not organised under anyones banner, nor are they open to all and thus do not require NGB regulation - it would not only be pointless but also impossible to do.

If I have read between the lines correctly and things are going this way, then clearly the SCA tours not only need to comply, but really ought to set the example for clubs (I'm pretty sure centres already have to do all this, although they will be using coaching quals as a metric). It would seem blindingly obvious to me that the touring committee should have been empowered to draft the necessary qualifications, and given a budget to put their own trip leaders through them.
MikeB wrote:What you're suggesting is that anyone who takes on the responsibilty of facilitating his pals going on the water needs to have a formal coaching qualification?
No it isn't, it may have come accross that way (I didn't think it did, I made a point of not including peer paddling), but hopefully my thoughts above demonstrate that this is not the case.

Most club committee members and/or senior members have a (short) list in their head of members that they would not trust to lead a club trip for various reasons, but would be happy to have along to assist. Mostly they won't tell the people that they aren't trusted to lead or explain why and how they need to change their ways so they would be, they just make sure there is always someone they trust in charge of each trip. Which is great until one day none of the trusted people turn up for some reason, and no-one realises that the trip ought to be cancelled and instead defer to the persons whose judgment is in question because they seem to be next in command. Usually there won't be an incident, but if there is? Wouldn't it be for the better if a system was developed to get around that, yet still not have to confront the person to tell them you don't like their attitude because it will have stopped them getting the ticket they need in the first place?

However, generally the problem is that introducing new requirements and qualifications tends to be viewed as questioning the competence of those already in the role, where in fact it gives them an opportunity to get a firm foundation so they don't need to be questioned. It's partly a matter of perception, the other factor against being cost. I have no idea how to overcome either issue.

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by MikeB » Thu May 26, 2011 3:05 pm

I don't disagree - although there is a significant difference between trips "being run by the SCA" and "trips run on behalf of SCA members, by SCA members, under the banner of the SCA".

And where clear criteria exist as to who can come on such trips.

And where there are clear criteria for who is suitable to organise and run those trips. Many of whom of course have been doing do without incident over many years, and many of whom have considerable experience.

As to funding the necesssary "training" - that would be nice. Assuming people were willing to give up the considerable amount of personal time needed to acquire coaching level qualifications only so they could invite other paddlers onto a trip they organised, and thought it would be nice to open it to others.

Mike.

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Mr Hoppy » Thu May 26, 2011 5:45 pm

MikeB wrote:I don't disagree - although there is a significant difference between trips "being run by the SCA" and "trips run on behalf of SCA members, by SCA members, under the banner of the SCA".
There may be in your mind but legally it's a very grey area as we found out recently. One of the main questions we were asked was was it a club trip and over the differentiation.

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by MikeB » Thu May 26, 2011 6:07 pm

Yes - a number of people think likewise, which is understandable. As has been debated in another thread recently on a similar subject. The key word is "grey".

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Scots_Charles_River » Thu May 26, 2011 10:52 pm

MikeB wrote:
I'm sure it will be resolved and a new calendar setup for next year.
Please, expand on how this will happen? You've said this twice so it'd be helpful to have the basis of your assertion.
Because I'm an optimist !

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by MikeB » Thu May 26, 2011 10:55 pm

I hope your optimism proves correct. What I expect you'll get are tours organised by the SCA, led by fully qualified coaches, and for which there will be a not insignificant charge. But of course, I'm being a pessimist. Mike.

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SCA Touring meeting - 23rd June in the Stirling area

Post by stuartsmith » Fri May 27, 2011 5:16 pm

A meeting to discuss the future direction of SCA Touring and SCA Tours will take place in the evening of Thursday 23rd June in the Stirling area. This meeting has been called following the recent resignation of the SCA Touring Committee.
The purpose of the meeting is for SCA members interested in taking SCA Touring forwards to be able to start to plan the way ahead in this area. In order that we can plan the meeting/seating/refreshments accordingly, all SCA members wishing to attend the meeting should notify their intention to do so to via the SCA office as soon as possible. http://www.canoescotland.org/recreation/Touring.aspx regards, Stuart

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by MikeB » Fri May 27, 2011 5:29 pm

I'm very pleased to read this Stuart - I've suggested to Margaret that it would be helpful to have an agenda, the objectives and the expected outcomes of this meeting, and some idea of who will be present from the SCA Board.

Thanks - Mike.

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Re: RIP SCA Touring Calendar

Post by Owen » Fri May 27, 2011 8:55 pm

Any idea what time this meeting will start. I live in the Stirling area but often have to work till late mid week.

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