Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?^

Places, technique, kayaks, safety, the sea...
Post Reply
yaknut
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:27 pm
Location: Donegal

Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?^

Post by yaknut » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:36 pm

Hello All,
First post here, so a big hello from Northwest Ireland.

I have a problem with a leaking stern hatch. The hatch rim seal/adhesive is failing and the rim is dethatching from the deck. See picture.

I'm armed with a tube of Sikaflex 291 and and some sandpaper. I'll be removing the rim completely before replacing it as described here.
http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/mag/28/hatches.htm

The only thing attaching the rim to the deck was whatever adhesive the manufactures used. I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to reinforce the attachment by using small bolts, or rivets for a tidier finish.

I dont know how strong the Sikaflex bonding will be, but it seems to me that it will be under pressure when the hatch cover is being attached and removed. It might be better to rely on rivets or bolts for the actual attachment and Sikaflex as the sealant. Otherwise I may have to repeat the excersize somewhere down the line.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.

Regards,
Paddy

Image

laca
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:43 am

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by laca » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:53 pm

I've used the sikaflex 260 (an earlier product) with its cleaner and primer 2 years ago for replacing all the 3 rims on my old Nordkapp.
Sikaflex alone is strong enough to hold the rims so isn't necessary using bolts.

User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 7958
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:44 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by MikeB » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:07 pm

Don't use bolts - they just create a pressure point. My Quest came with bolted in rims - they leaked - the boat went back to P&H and was returned without them, the rims just being bonded. They've been fine ever since.

User avatar
Jurassic
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 1:41 pm
Location: Helensburgh

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by Jurassic » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:13 pm

I know it's probably too late and you've already bought the Sikaflex (which I'm sure will be fine) but I've been using West System G-Flex for a few jobs recently and it's amazingly strong. I used it to bond a mast foot into my open canoe which is subject to some major stresses and to repair the nose of one of my windsurfing boards which had been split in two during a catapult/crash. It's very easy to use too.

Aled
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2003 12:40 am
Location: North Wales
Contact:

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by Aled » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:26 pm

Make sure you use Sika primer with the 291 - paint both rim and deck. No need for bolts, the bond will be strong enough - bolts/rivets are likely to further leakage. Take care with removing the rim, slow steady finger pressure is advisable and the rim will slowly peel off, don't try to yank it off - you'll either bend the rim or crack the deck.

User avatar
delphinidae
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:55 am
Location: ...

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by delphinidae » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:59 pm

A lot of people use methacrylate for hatch rims (and other things too!), but you are looking at £50 for the gun and a 50 ml catridge

(you can get single use / one-shot catridges, but I have not been to find any UK supplier online)
Last edited by delphinidae on Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jon Wood
Posts: 558
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: London

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by Jon Wood » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:02 pm

Another downside to nuts & bolts: unless you make the tips nice & smooth you will stand a good chance of snagging & holing drybags (or your hands as you rummage something out of the hatch).

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 13497
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by Jim » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:21 pm

Sikaflex 291 is a construction adhesive so as long as you prep the area well enough it will create a good strong bond, hell a lot of manufacturers stick the bulkheads and hatches in with it these days.

It is however expensive and they have started putting an expiry date on the tubes so my local Chandler supplies another equivalent product (from Bostik I think) with the same marine approvals for about half the price with no shelf life (the latter being a major issue for a shop that doesn't sell many or in a regular fashion because no-one will buy nearly or out of date tubes).

As regards rivets - I presume you meant pop rivets rather than trying to pein solid rivets in situ? Be aware that the centre of a pop rivet is steel and is independant of the aluminium body, once the stem has snapped it is possible for the centre to drop out of the body (maybe 25-50% used to when I was using them a lot) so although you will fix the hatch in, you will leave a ring of holes around it!
Bolts really aren't necessary with Sikaflex, the disadvantages are already covered by others.

yaknut
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:27 pm
Location: Donegal

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by yaknut » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:31 pm

Thanks everyone for your advice and suggestions for alternative adhesives.

I'll forget about rivets or bolts.

Jim, yes I meant pop rivits. I've rarely used them so didnt know that sometimes the backs poped out.

I bought the Sikaflex from an online supplier and hadnt even considered that it might have a short shelf life. I just checked the tube and its use by date is July of this year :(. I guess I'll be taking a closer look at the other 2 hatches to see if there are any signs of the same problem begining there.

Thanks again.

User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 7958
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:44 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by MikeB » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:46 pm

Jim wrote:As regards rivets - I presume you meant pop rivets rather than trying to pein solid rivets in situ? Be aware that the centre of a pop rivet is steel and is independant of the aluminium body, once the stem has snapped it is possible for the centre to drop out of the body (maybe 25-50% used to when I was using them a lot) so although you will fix the hatch in, you will leave a ring of holes around it!
.
And if they are left in place, they'll rust.

User avatar
Chas C
Posts: 1760
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 9:12 pm
Location: New Forest
Contact:

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by Chas C » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:51 am

Take a look at: http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... eaky+quest

In it is a link to Tradeweld Acrillic which worked very well for me.

User avatar
watt
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:10 am
Location: North Sea
Contact:

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by watt » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:34 am

I had a crack in a P&H hatch a while ago and since the rims are made of ABS I used methacrylate as already mentioned above, as it's recommended by some ABS manufacturers. Now it's tight.

yaknut
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:27 pm
Location: Donegal

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by yaknut » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:34 pm

Thanks again for the input folks.

I did the job last night. Removing the old adhesive took quite a bit of time, but I got there. I tested it out this evening with a hose. No water got in, but the real test will be on the water at the weekend. It seems like a good strong bond, but time will tell.

For anyone who is about embark on a similar job, allow yourself plenty of time for cleaning up because it is a messy job. I put what I thought was very little Sikaflex around the rim, but it still took quite a bit of time to clean off the excess once fitted.

Gages
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:45 am

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by Gages » Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:27 pm

If your wanting to keep the cleaning time down use a little PVA applied around the outside area where you want to clean up ,let it dry and then do your messy work,let it dry then when your ready just use your finger and it will all come off ...easily

User avatar
Ceegee
Posts: 942
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:32 pm
Location: Mizen Head, Ireland (see above)

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by Ceegee » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:48 am

delphinidae wrote:A lot of people use methacrylate for hatch rims (and other things too!), but you are looking at £50 for the gun and a 50 ml catridge

(you can get single use / one-shot catridges, but I have not been to find any UK supplier online)
I had the same problem. Mike at Rockpool recommended Methacrylate - IWT Plexus MA310. Could only find the "one-shot" tubes in the US and nobody will ship it by post/air.

Found this (Devcon) instead in the UK http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/produc ... ku=1711517 for £12 a tube. Same shipping issues to RoI Ireland (have you got an address in the wee North you can give for delivery where you can collect it?).

I'd guess Sikaflex would hold too, although it is a sealant rather than an adhesive. I'd still worry about a hatch rim popping offshore in a big sea - DISASTER or what?

Still, if Aled says it will hold he must be confident :)
Cheers,
Steve C. G.

User avatar
delphinidae
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:55 am
Location: ...

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by delphinidae » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:48 pm

I have tried used Sika 291 for other stuff before, and I was not that impressed with its sticking abilities (ended up using CT1 instead)

I probably did do not enough surface preparation / priming though (wot Aled said)

I think the floating bulkhead in my Alaw (the one which creates the day hatch) has been fitted using Sika 291, and it has been fine

I wish you could buy 100ml tubes of Sika 292

Bod
Posts: 1591
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:50 pm
Location: Exeter

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by Bod » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:32 pm

Ceegee wrote:Found this (Devcon) instead in the UK http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/produc ... ku=1711517 for £12 a tube. Same shipping issues to RoI Ireland (have you got an address in the wee North you can give for delivery where you can collect it?).
CeeGee

Farnell should probably have told you about this website: http://ie.farnell.com/ It's just like the UK one except they take Euros off you and deliver to your part of the world. EURO 18.18 (ouch!)
John B.

yaknut
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:27 pm
Location: Donegal

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by yaknut » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:03 pm

I've just come in from my fourth trip since re-attaching the hatch, with one trip where there was plenty of water washing over the stern deck. Thankfully there have been no leaks, so it looks like its a watertight seal at least.

Ceegee: Thanks for the heads up on Farnell and Devcon. I'd never have thought to look there. We order a lot of stuff from them at work, so thats handy.

Thanks to all for the advice.

Regards,
Paddy

mick m
Posts: 445
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:23 am
Location: East Gippsland Vic Australia
Contact:

Re: Leaking Hatch: retrofit with bolts/rivits?

Post by mick m » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:48 pm

yaknut wrote:Thanks everyone for your advice and suggestions for alternative adhesives.

I'll forget about rivets or bolts.

Jim, yes I meant pop rivits. I've rarely used them so didnt know that sometimes the backs poped out.

I bought the Sikaflex from an online supplier and hadnt even considered that it might have a short shelf life. I just checked the tube and its use by date is July of this year :(. I guess I'll be taking a closer look at the other 2 hatches to see if there are any signs of the same problem begining there.

Thanks again.
put the remander of the tube in the frige, it keeps well, iv got 12 munths out of a curtrige with litel wast

Post Reply