Sticking stuff to a composite boat^

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Ian_Montrose
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Sticking stuff to a composite boat^

Post by Ian_Montrose » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:25 am

Just recently bought my first composite boat - yippee! Never worked with fibreglass before - boo!

I've been reading through the almanac and using the search function but I'm just as confused as I was before I started and naturally terrified about making a mistake with my new baby. So, can someone please explain the current best options for securely sticking things (attachment points etc) inside the boat. Best adhesives to use, optimal prep methods, things to avoid etc.

Also, for bonus points, if I want to trim back the integral GRP thigh braces a little is that fairly straightforward or best left alone? Can I just cut them back with a stanley blade or will I end up with exposed fibres that will cause irritation?

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mickeyb
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by mickeyb » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:48 am

Had the same prob a few weeks ago with a new surf boat( Random Evolution, seriously cool boat )
Was using Evo Stick impact adhesive to stick the seat in. Any time i took a bit of a rough tumble in a wave, seat unstuck itself. After 3 or 4 sessions of this happening, I went to DIY store and asked to see their spray on glues.
Carpet sticking glue works wornders for me now. It won't dissolve foam. Is real easy to use, and sticks solid.

Now i'm flying in the surfboat with no worries of seat unsticking.

Hope this helps, Can take a piccy of the glue i use if it helps.
Mickey

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StoneWeasel
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by StoneWeasel » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:00 am

mickeyb wrote:Had the same prob a few weeks ago with a new surf boat( Random Evolution, seriously cool boat )
Was using Evo Stick impact adhesive to stick the seat in. Any time I took a bit of a rough tumble in a wave, seat unstuck itself. After 3 or 4 sessions of this happening, I went to DIY store and asked to see their spray on glues.
Carpet sticking glue works wornders for me now. It won't dissolve foam. Is real easy to use, and sticks solid.

Now I'm flying in the surfboat with no worries of seat unsticking.

Hope this helps, Can take a piccy of the glue I use if it helps.
Mickey
Glad you are enjoying your new toy.

What you say surprises me though as Evostick Impact is normally MUCH stronger than carpet spray glue, as in loads stronger. Are you sure you were applying the Evostick properly? You should rough up slightly and coat both surfaces with the glue, wait until they are touch dry (not tacky but actually touch dry) and then push them together, that should hold really quite well. Evostick 528 is even stronger but is generally only found at builders merchants type places.

As for the original question though, one method I have seem for adding attainment points that seemed to work quite well was to get some nylon tent line and make a loop with it, fray the ends out a fair bit, rough up a little area where you want to attach it and stick it down with a blob of epoxy.

Denzil

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Ceegee
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by Ceegee » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:11 am

For foam backing, neoprene lining of cockpit etc. impact adhesive works perfectly as suggested.

For big tensile loads (eyelets and the like) you should use an epoxy, or preferably a methacrylate adhesive. I had some small repairs recently and Rockpool advised me they use Plexus MA310. Does the biz!

Otherwise, bigger fittings (D rings and the like) should be glassed inside. Roughen the inside of the hull and mix a little polyester resin (assuming you DON'T have an epoxy boat), wet out glass tape and use to stick the D rings down. Mask surrounding areas to keep them clean and tidy. A 250ml polyester resin kit, 100ml acetone, a few square feet of 300g/m2 chopped strand mat and a few yards of 1" amd 2" woven glass tape, plus a craft knife, junior hacksaw blade, a few plastic beakers, sand paper, disposable brushes and latex gloves should be in every major repair kit (IMO). With that you can fix ANY damage to a composite boat up to a one foot hole in "field" conditions.

Deck fittings (camera mounts, tow ropes etc.) I use double sided tape or stick-down velcro tape AND a safety lanyard. For heavy loads (towing eyes, cleats etc) you will have to drill the deck, bolt-through and mount a backing plate too!

Easy to trim thigh grips etc. Use a surform shaper, mini-hacksaw blade or Dremel tool if you have one. It is a good idea to mask adjoining areas so a slip of the tool does not scratch your gelcoat. Work slowly and carefully and little by little - once it is gone you can't put it back! Finish with a fine wet & dry paper to remove stray fibres etc.

Glass DUST is irritant. Face mask and pair of latex gloves are a good idea.

Hope this helps,

Steve
Cheers,
Steve C. G.

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davebrads
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by davebrads » Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:11 am

I would suggest using epoxy resin rather than polyester, even if you have a boat built with polyester resin. It is a lot more expensive ~£25-£30 for a 1.2Kg kit, but it is a lot easier to work with, and will give a stronger and more reliable bond. My repair kit consists of epoxy resin, 0.5m x 0.5m carbon-kevlar mat, some 25mm kevlar seam tape (this was the hardest part to source, I had to order it from the states), and some peel-ply which holds down the edges of the material while it goes off and gives a much better finish. And some cheap brushes - epoxy resin is virtually impossible to clean out of the brushes, unless you use a large amount of acetone- you just have to put up with bristles falling out and pick them out afterwards.

For carving large chunks off thigh braces or the sides of seats I have used a stanley knife. Just repeatedly score the material until you go through. You will have to be careful that you don't cut too much off. Then finish off to size and smooth sharp corners with surform and finally finish off with wet and dry to smooth off any stray fibre ends.

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Jim
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by Jim » Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:24 am

To add to Steves list - if you are worried about the exposed endgrain after surforming and sanding, sparingly smear some resin along the edge with a gloved fingertip whilst doing some other resin based job.

Remember if you have an epoxy boat you need to sand well in any area before anything will stick (sets with a waxy surface coat), and it's best to use epoxy resin on epoxy (araldite is epoxy based if you need a shortcut to glueing). For a polyester boat you still want to key the surface but both polyester and epoxy will stick to it just fine. If you don't know whether it is epoxy or polyester - ask!

Only change I would make is that I despise chopped strand mat and would replace that with glass cloth - woven rovings would be OK (I would advise against twill if you are unfamiliar with it) - because it can make a tidier job, cloth does need a bit more care to get into place though.

Dave - your message appeared whilst I was typing, Acetone is useless on epoxy, either use proprietary epoxy solvent (too expensive) or cellulose thinners (much cheaper). Acetone or Cellulose thinners work equally well for polyester, but acetone does very little for epoxy. You will still need a reasonable quantity to clean brushes effectively, and if in a repair kit you have a disposal uf used thinners issue, so I agree disposable brushes are best (allow to set and then take home).

There is another tool that can be used to adjusting those thigh braces - Angle grinder with a rubber arbour and sanding discs. It needs the most delicate of touches and will spread a lot of dust over a big area so wear a good mask, maybe a paper overall (tape up the wrists etc. if you don't like being itchy) and think carefully about who else you will affect - don't do it outside whilst the neighbours washing is on the line. If the angle grinder has dust extraction pipe, plug a 'henry' or similar type vacuum cleaner into it on full suck. You can reduce 30 minutes of surforming to 2 seconds light touch with the grinder, be really conservative!

Jim

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Ceegee
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by Ceegee » Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:38 pm

My point on polyester/epoxy was, as Jim says, Polyester WONT stick to an Epoxy boat. The converse is not true (i.e. epoxy will bond to most things). Matter of choice. I use acetone more to get the surfaces dry than as a working solvent, hence the disposable cups/brushes (disposal back home in the bin, not on the beach BTW). Just wipe all the surfaces with a swipe of acetone and allow to flash dry, otherwise nothing will bond properly. You could use ethyl alcohol as an alternative, more environmentally friendly and useful when the Malt runs out. Cooker fuel does at a pinch but MAY damage the surface finish. Rovings/cloth are much easier to handle, but harder wet out and to use for small repairs in awkward places. With CSM you can make a mash and push into holes/awkward corners. For large regular surfaces cloth is probably better, yes.
davebrads wrote: some 25mm kevlar seam tape (this was the hardest part to source, I had to order it from the states)
Dave, east coast fiberglass have 2" kevlar tape. http://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/p ... -wide.aspx BTW, I find Kevlar & Diolen a Bi***ch to wet out in the shop. I'd ve even less inclined for a field repair which as likely as not I'm going to grind off again back home.

Steve
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by Ian_Montrose » Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:54 pm

Thanks so much for all the excellent replies. I'll have to sit down after work and read them all thoroughly. In the meantime, it seems I need to determine if my boat is epoxy or polyester. Is there an easy way to figure this out barring asking the manufacturer? It's a North Shore if that helps.

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Jim
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by Jim » Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:19 pm

Ian_Montrose wrote:Thanks so much for all the excellent replies. I'll have to sit down after work and read them all thoroughly. In the meantime, it seems I need to determine if my boat is epoxy or polyester. Is there an easy way to figure this out barring asking the manufacturer? It's a North Shore if that helps.
One can make an educated guess but it's best to ask the manufacturer or pull the relevant spec off their website (do North Shore have one?).

The educated guess would be cheap spec glassfibre boat most likely polyester, higher spec boat with carbon and/or kevlar most likely epoxy.
I'm pretty sure you can get the exotics with the right binders to work with polyester but it's unusual so most would consider carbon = epoxy and be unlikely to go wrong. Glass cloth is widely available to use with both resins, in fact most of the racing dinghies I used to build were glass/epoxy (a few carbon/epoxy, but even they had some glass in them), I have to admit I've only seen CSM (chopped strand mat) for polyester, but chances are you could get it for epoxy if you wanted to - to be confident about a glass boat you would really need to ask the builder.

Short explanation - glass fibres (and carbon or kevlar) are very very fine, to make usable strands they are loosely glued together in a 'binder', the strands are then either chopped and randomised, or woven into a cloth. The binder actually has to be part of the chemical reaction involved with the curing of the resin so that it becomes integral with the matrix, and not some foreign pollutant within it. Different resin systems require different binders which is important when making a whole product, but for small repairs we can usually just ignore this - if the field repair is slightly compromised, we can chisel it off later and do it properly. If it shows no signs of peeling we just leave it. Note that field repairs will often turn white by the end of the next day's paddling - this is due to making contact with water before fully cured (a couple of weeks) and usually passes - as far as I know it does not weaken the repair.

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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by Chris Bolton » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:41 pm

For cleaning brushes I use neat washing machine detergent. Works with polyester, epoxy, hammerite paint... in fact I haven't found anything it won't clean off, provided you work it into the brush before it sets.

Chris

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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by Owen » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:18 pm

Jim wrote: One can make an educated guess but it's best to ask the manufacturer or pull the relevant spec off their website (do North Shore have one?).
http://www.northshoreseakayaks.com/

I think you'll find that they use polyester.

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al27
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by al27 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:22 pm

The educated guess would be cheap spec glassfibre boat most likely polyester, higher spec boat with carbon and/or kevlar most likely epoxy.
You'd like to think so!! there's a lot of boats out there that are basically glass/polyester with a final layer of carbon, kevlar or hybrid just to look expensive. As Jim says, ask the builder.
I have to admit I've only seen CSM (chopped strand mat) for polyester, but chances are you could get it for epoxy if you wanted to
Use powder bound for epoxy, although you wouldn't build a boat with it (waste of epoxy). Only used as a skin coat or for print blocking. Works equally well with poly; emulsion (standard) bound CSM only works with poly.

Al.

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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by pearcy » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:00 pm

mickeyb wrote:Was using Evo Stick impact adhesive to stick the seat in. Any time I took a bit of a rough tumble in a wave, seat unstuck itself. After 3 or 4 sessions of this happening
I belive Evo Impact comes in two varients, a friendly solvent free version and a smelly solvent version - the former is water soluble and may explain your problem? The latter is generally kept under lock and key at the back of the DIY store, and works much better.

Andy

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delphinidae
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by delphinidae » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:23 pm

I think my (Rockpool) boat uses polyester resin. Vinyl ester resin sits in between polyester and epoxy resin (used in all Epic kayaks) in terms of quality/durability I think, but I can't immediately recall any UK kayak manufacturer that uses it.

Whilst Googling, I found this page which says that epoxy resin should never be used to repair a fibreglass kayak. Are they talking bollox? I was going to use some Araldite to fill in some small bulkhead holes for fittings that I no longer need.

Isn't CSM mat (not the sprayed on stuff) used a lot in hand layups because it's easy to saturate with resin?

Thanks for identifying the Plexus methacrylate stuff, CeeGee.

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al27
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by al27 » Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:29 am

Whilst Googling, I found this page
the kayak anatomy page on the Epic site? I might well be missing something (it's after midnight...) but I can't see anything relating to kayak repairs?
Are they talking bollox
If I had to come down on one side of the fence, I'd say yes, but let's see the page you had in mind first...
Isn't CSM mat (not the sprayed on stuff) used a lot in hand layups because it's easy to saturate with resin?
No.

Its uses are:
Used as the first layer after the gelcoat for 2 reasons. Firstly it is very drapeable, meaning that it will go round all the deck fittings, and with careful working will eliminate all the (significant) air bubbles between the gelcoat and the laminate stack; fabrics don't drape as well round deck fittings, but minor air bubbles within the laminate are not actually that much of an issue. Secondly, because of the way it breaks down to single fibres, as opposed to clumps of fibres in a fabric, and the random orientation, its useful as a print block (where the fabric is visible ghosting through the gelcoat). This is more of a problem with polyester due to the shrinkage rates. Also, and this is open to debate, but with polyesters it was always the theory that fabrics placed next to each other in the laminate stack were prone to delamination, but putting a layer of CSM between fabrics made it more tolerant under high stress conditions (hitting a rock).

"Sprayed on stuff" is no different; its all just little pieces of glass and resin, it's just easier to get a uniform layer with mat.

CSM does have "amateur" misconceptions due to its tolerence to being added to a mould with a bucket of resin, stirred round and broken out to give a 40kg kayak. Used corretly however, it has a valid place in modern boat construction.

Al.

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delphinidae
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by delphinidae » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:26 am

Oops, I did mess up my links there. Here's the correct link.

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al27
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by al27 » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:50 am

Yes, I'd have to say I completely disagree with that. Unfortunately there's no reason given to justify that statement.

The only thing polyester sticks properly to is uncured polyester. Epoxy sticks to both, cured and uncured.

Al.

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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by Chris Bolton » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:03 am

Agreed, I've done several mends on polyester/vinylester boats using epoxy, and they have lasted for years - better than polyester on polyester.

The only reason I can think of why it might be thought not to be a good idea is that if anyone else subsequently needed to repair the same area, and didn't know, they might use polyester since it's a polyester boat. But it's a pretty weak reason.

Chris

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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by mick m » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:25 am

Good morning,
Douglas has writen up a realy good acount on fiting one of my sails , at the end of the post he explains how he atached spectra loops in his deck, a proses I yous a fear bit . easily replaced when after a few years ther worn out to to thred the spectra easily Islide the outer sheath back and cut out 3 inches of iner and slide the outer back , nicely taperd for threading .
http://seakayakphoto.blogspot.com/2010/ ... tting.html

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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat^

Post by OGB » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:18 pm

While I'd agree that all the chat about various types of 'glass is the best way to do a permanent job, I got the impression that what was wanted here was a "quick and simple" solution. I use Evo-Stik "Nail 'n Seal" and I find that it bonds pretty well anything to the inside of the cockpit. Items "fixed" with this have stayed in place for years although can be removed with (a lot) of gentle persuasion. I find this useful as a lot of my fittings are there on a trial fit basis and if I change my mind I want to be able to move them without resorting to heat guns or chemicals. It used to be a pale blue colour but now comes in white so is pretty invisible in use, sets "hard but with a bit of flex" and is waterproof and conforms to the weave of the hull material. Best of all, it's quick, easy and cheap.

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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by Aled » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:59 pm

delphinidae wrote:vinylester resin ... but I can't immediately recall any UK kayak manufacturer that uses it.
We did in our vacuum bagged and infused boats, it gave very good post-curing properties and a great degree of control over pot life by tailoring the acceleration and catalyzing, but now we've moved on to epoxy... (and no CSM either! – emulsion will not dissolve in epoxy)

A kiss on the cheek (face only) goes to the first reader who can define all the technical terms used in the above sentence! :)

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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat^

Post by davebrads » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:10 pm

delphinidae wrote:Oops, I did mess up my links there. Here's the correct link.
On top of the rubbish about epoxy, the last sentence on this page:
East Coast Canoe and Kayak wrote:If repairing a bad gouge or scratch, use gelcoat only to replace the missing gelcoat
Polyester gelcoat doesn't set when exposed to air - I know I've tried it. As far as I am aware there is not an epoxy equivalent of gelcoat, the outer layer of an epoxy boat is just a thin layer of epoxy resin. For gouges and small punctures I just fill with Araldite or similar, which I guess are just epoxy resin with added stiffeners so that it stays put.
Cheers Chris and Jim for the tips on cleaning brushes - I will try them next time, it will save having to pick bristles out of the resin.

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Jim
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by Jim » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:17 am

Aled wrote:
delphinidae wrote:vinylester resin ... but I can't immediately recall any UK kayak manufacturer that uses it.
We did in our vacuum bagged and infused boats, it gave very good post-curing properties and a great degree of control over pot life by tailoring the acceleration and catalyzing, but now we've moved on to epoxy... (and no CSM either! – emulsion will not dissolve in epoxy)

A kiss on the cheek (face only) goes to the first reader who can define all the technical terms used in the above sentence! :)
I should be able to since I used to vac bag myself, and I had a discussion about infusing fairly recently with a mate who is at sunseeker now, but to be honest I've forgotten about infusing already, which is lucky because it means I don't have to get a kiss. Is it somewhere between wet layup vac bagging (for consolidation) and resin transfer moulding but using a vac bag rather than an all solid mould? Or is it just a fancy name for vac bagging?

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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat^

Post by al27 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:35 am

If I don't tell you, will you promise not to kiss me; you're cute Aled, but.......

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Ceegee
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat

Post by Ceegee » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:37 pm

Jim wrote: I should be able to since I used to vac bag myself,
Wot, like this Jim?

Image

;-) Steve
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Steve C. G.

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Jim
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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat^

Post by Jim » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:40 am

No, everyone knows that carbon freezing is an entirely different technique.

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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat^

Post by nickcrowhurst » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:16 pm

davebrads wrote:Polyester gelcoat doesn't set when exposed to air - I know I've tried it.
My gelcoat repairs always set when exposed to the air. It may be a special quality of our Cornish air (cf the St Ives school of artists), or, just possibly, it may be the small amounts of wax I add to it. Order gelcoat for top-coat work, and the wax will be already added.
Nick.

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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat^

Post by mick m » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:47 pm

corect me if im rong byt isent flow coat for repering and gel coat for in molds ?

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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat^

Post by Chris Bolton » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:56 pm

As I understand it, gel coat is resin with thixotropic additive, flowcoat has thixotrope and wax, while laminating resin has no thixotrope and no wax. It's possible to make a fairly effective flowcoat by mixing laminating resin and gelcoat.

For kayaks (again, as I understand it) there's nothing special about having gelcoat on the outside other than it being thicker (to protect the fibres even when scratched) and it staying tacky on the non-mould face. Yachts which stay afloat use gelcoat with anti-osmosis properties, but this is irrelevant for kayaks.

Jim or Al may well be able to improve on my understanding.

Chris

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Re: Sticking stuff to a composite boat^

Post by nickcrowhurst » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:07 pm

From the south-west UK's main GRP supplies company, the wax additive for standard gelcoat when used as a topcoat:

http://www.cfsnet.co.uk/cgi-local/sh000 ... SWAX_2d250

Nick

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