Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -^

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MikeB
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Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -^

Post by MikeB » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:29 pm

With deep regret, I have to accept that my ancient Knoydart sallys and long suffering Kokatat cag are both due to go to wherever old kit goes to die. Both have served me well - and both leak now from too much wear in too many places.

While I like Kokatat kit a lot, paying the best part of £500 for a cag is really just not on, even if it does last 6 years. And the superb Knoydart sallys are no longer available.

So - recommend me some new kit - - - - new sallys, ideally the "bib and braces" type - and a new cag - -

Mike.

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by Soul Surfer » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:23 pm

I just bought a pair of Palm bib pants from here http://www.wetsuitoutlet.co.uk/index.php?cPath=23, even with postage they were cheaper than anywhere else online. Only worn them twice but love them already!
People are always afraid of what's different...

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by maxturner » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:38 pm

I have some Knoydart sallys which are in good condition, size M, offers ?

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MikeB
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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by MikeB » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:45 pm

maxturner wrote:I have some Knoydart sallys which are in good condition, size M, offers ?
Thanks - but very much the wrong size !

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tpage
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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by tpage » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:13 pm

MikeB wrote:
maxturner wrote:I have some Knoydart sallys which are in good condition, size M, offers ?
Thanks - but very much the wrong size !
I've got a set of large, that i don't like or use?
Tony

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MikeB
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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by MikeB » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:26 pm

tpage wrote:
MikeB wrote:
maxturner wrote:I have some Knoydart sallys which are in good condition, size M, offers ?
Thanks - but very much the wrong size !
I've got a set of large, that I don't like or use?
Tony
Again, apprecaited, but would need to be XL - - -

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delphinidae
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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by delphinidae » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:53 pm

My (2006) Palm Sidewinder salllies and my Aleutian cag have served me well so far, but they also need to pampered a bit (technical fabrics blah blah blah) and I'm not convinced that expensive kit doesn't represent a false economy any more.

You could buy three of even four cheaper cags, which you could treat like crap without being bothered, for the price of one Aleutian cag.

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by mark62 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:05 pm

I've been impressed by my Reed Chillcheater cag. Very comfortable to wear compared to diver type seal cags, very easy to get on and off compared to the diver type seals. doesn't let water in the wrist or neck.

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Kate D
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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by Kate D » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:00 am

Last year I had 2 Palm Aleutian cags in quick succession. Both failed in exactly the same way. The fabric under the arms delaminated to form blisters about 2" across. The first one had been worn for 5 days paddling and the second failed after about 10 days paddling. The first cag had been worn for one five day trip so had not been rinsed and dried after each use but the second one was used over the winter just for day trips and always got rinsed and hung up to dry.

The shop exchanged both these cags with no quibbles but I wouldn't want to buy another one.

The cag I ended up with is the Yak Conquest. So far the fabric of this one has lasted but it does have a few significant design faults (in my opinion).
The worst of these is that the velcro that closes the neck opening has the hooky bit on the inside. If you want to paddle with the neck seal open, as I nearly always do, it is desperately uncomfortable. The cag is also far too long in the body for me and so I end up with a massive 'spare tyre' of fabric under my BA.

Since then I have been using a Peak cag and deck combined. This is the most comfortable bit of kit I have worn. No layers of cag and deck tight round the middle, and nowhere for water to leak in through. Peak make a whole range of cags, with or without deck attached. I would recommend you have a look at their website. www.peakuk.com

Happy shopping,
Kate

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MikeB
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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by MikeB » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:57 pm

Kate D wrote:Last year I had 2 Palm Aleutian cags in quick succession. Both failed in exactly the same way.
Hmm - worrying - I'm a Palm fan and the Aleutian is (was?) looking like a contender. Anyone got any update on current stock and problems like Kate's?

Thanks - Mike.

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by maxturner » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:20 pm

I like the simplicity of the Palm Cobra cag and Viper trousers.

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by swagstaff » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:26 pm

Kokatat Tec tour in goretex £395 & in tropos £265
Peak Adventure Double £199, Adventure single £135
Sally's Gul or Gill £60-£70
WHITEWATER ALL YEAR LONG

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Mr Hoppy
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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by Mr Hoppy » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:46 pm

MikeB wrote:
Kate D wrote:Last year I had 2 Palm Aleutian cags in quick succession. Both failed in exactly the same way.
Hmm - worrying - I'm a Palm fan and the Aleutian is (was?) looking like a contender. Anyone got any update on current stock and problems like Kate's?

Thanks - Mike.
The Palm kit has the best cut of anything I've used but the material is absolute gash. I've had 2 sidewinder cags go the way of Kates and a pair of the salopettes and my wife has had 3 of the Apex cags go the way of Kates. I've had a pair of their knee length shorts which had all of the stitching around the waist come undone and the rubberised waste tabs tear off, and the wife has had a deck where the front had a seam that parted. The customer service has been second to none and generally kit has been replaced or repaired quickly and without fuss, I just really wish that I hadn't had to use it for every single piece of their kit I own. I will not be purchasing any of their dry kit again as I just can't trust it not to disintegrate. My Peak shorty on the otherhand is generally abused and not looked after properly and is lasting well although the cut isn't as good and the material doesn't feel as robust (seems to be fine though).

I like the look and feel of the Peak Adventures and Kokotat Tropos tops, reasonably lightweight and the material seems less obviously multi layer than the Palm stuff so should be less prone to delaminating.

Chris

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by Mike A » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:49 pm

Re Aleution cag de-lamination

I bought one in early 2009 - I love it, its a fantastic piece of kit, really well cut and cumfy in bad weather.

BUT, I was concerned that my palm sidewinder cag had delaminated, so I checked the Aleution as its made of the same material and noticed that after about 12 days paddling the underarm / front pannels were de-laminating.

I contacted the shop, they asked me to send to Palm who checked and replaced the pannels - they did a very good job and both the level and speed of service was first class.

Haven't worn since as weather has been too hot, I tend to paddle in just an aquatherm top when its nice, but I'm off on a 10 day paddle trip soon and I will be checking on my return if I wear the Aleution.

Would I buy again, hmm, its a lot of money for a cag that I worry that if I wear it I will break it

Mike

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delphinidae
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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by delphinidae » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:50 pm

My Palm stuff seems to be OK though, although it's not been used that much.

Are people who have had several bad experiences with brand X just unlucky, or is brand X rubbish?

What does a bit of delaminated fabric look like? Anyone got a photo?

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by Mr Hoppy » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:54 pm

delphinidae wrote: Are people who have had several bad experiences with brand X just unlucky, or is brand X rubbish?

What does a bit of delaminated fabric look like? Anyone got a photo?
I've had 6 separate peices of kit do it over the course of 2-3 years even after they apparently fixed the problem. Several of the people I paddle with have had several peices of kit go the same way. Palm certainly used to have a reputation for it and from my experience it's not getting much better.

The delamiation usually appears under the arms and on the chest, it starts with the inner fine layer of fine mesh separating and then 'blistering' of the outer layers. It's pretty obvious but I've not got photos to hand.

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by Mike A » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:58 pm

I have photos, if someone wants to post one up I will e=mail to them

Mike

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by delphinidae » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:08 pm

You can email them to me if I like (as I'm the one who is asking); I'm just curious because I really have no idea if my Palm gear has become delaminated in places or not.

I wonder if some kind of shear stress/friction is causing it. When you've got a bit of laminated fabric sandwiched between a spraydeck tube and a BA, you can see why it might get delaminated by a combination of the friction on both sides (not unlike rolling a piece of blu-tak between two fingers). I remove my spraydeck by pulling it over my head when I'm wearing my dry trousers instead of dragging it down the things.

If I ever end up doing a lot of paddling in the rain/cold/wind (I don't at the moment, so my cag rarely gets used), I think I'm going to get one of these when/if my Aleutian wears out.

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by Mike A » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:37 pm

Worked posting out ish thanks to my brothers flickr account

Image

This is the Aleutian with the scrim material coming away

Image

This is the more serious delamination on the Sidewinder

If I was paddling as much as I was prior to buying these cags, which I intend to return to soon, I imagine that the normal use would have soon seen the garments beyond repair and returned for refund. I worry that once opportunity to paddle more arrises, then the increase useage would lead to delamination - but will it be too late to send back by that point? It is harder to prove manufacturing fault after little use over longer periods of time rather than same use within short time period

Great cags, but I am almost afraid to use them

Mike

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by RichJ » Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:31 pm

Hi all, a few more comments and observations. I quite regularly paddle (every weekend) and use Palm kit on all but the bleakest days mid winter or when I am planning to spend some time in the water when I use a Lomo dry suit. My regular paddling buddy uses similar kit and with similar performance.

For most of my paddling I use Sidewinder trousers. These have a high fit, are comfortable and have been pretty good, although have now started to be somewhat less 'dry' after 1 years use. A problem with these trousers is the design of the fitted socks. Its like trying to get your foot out of a 'U' bend ... seriously tiresome! We use Palm Tasman touring cags. Not as robust as the Aleutian but the collar has a softer feel. I guess it has a less substantial hood which is not a problem to me. These jackets have served us well this last year. Providing the collar is done up they only allow a small volume of water to trickle in whilst rolling and MUCH less sweaty than a sealed neck. The tapes around the seams have now started to become detached in high friction areas.

Previously, I used Sidewinder jackets. Two delaminated witin a year and one was replaced by Palm
I am on my second Lomo dry suit following early signs of delamination within a year. The current suit has been worn for one winter and contains considerable quantities of my DIY Aquasure keeping the inner layer and tapes together! ... but remains dry.

It seems to me that laminated 'dry' paddling kit is expensive, WILL delaminate and has a short life in terms of paddling days. I am always wet from sweating in 'dry' kit. A significant area of my body is covered in PFD, tow and deck. Moisture transfer in these areas is surely minimal? I often wonder if there is a simpler, more robust and cheaper fabric which may not breathe as well but when vented at the neck ensures a reasonably comfortable environment.

Richard

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by MikeB » Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:05 pm

Hmmm - thanks for this info - which is worrying me as I'd placed an order for an Aleutian and Sidewinder Combi bib before reading about the probs - - -

They arrived today (excellent service from Wetsuit outlet - - ).

On first impression, the cag is nice - well cut and comfortable - Palm seem to have increased their sizing as well as the XXL I ordered gives me plenty of room whereas the last one I had many years ago was a tight fit (not being the smallest of blokes!). I will be watching the material like the proverbial hawk to see what happens.

The shoulder / underam areas do seem to provide quite generous fit in comparison to the rest of the cag - and while I've not yet worn it in a boat, I have some reservations about the collar design which certainly doesn't give the ventilation flexibility of the Kokatat. Other than that, it's very nice.

The Sidewinders, ordered only in XL, are however massive - quite what Palm designers think constitutes the build of someone matching the catalogues dimensions must be, leaves me guessing. They'll have to go back.

On the general subject of delamination, all my outdoor gear over the past years has been Goretex and I've never had any of it delaminate - which is why I'll be watching the Palm kit carefully. My Kokatat cag actually wore through the material where it was rubbing on the ba straps, but that's after 6 years. As to breathability, while I've always got a little damp around the chest when paddling hard and put that down to the ba and the deck tube, I've never really been "wet" except where I've been used gear well past it's use-by date.

Given the price of this kit, getting at least 2 to 3 years use should be the expectation and while I accept that we all use our gear in differing ways, the average paddler can surely only be paddling a couple a weekends a month plus perhaps a total of maybe 10 - 15 days a year on exped? Ok, I know there are plenty of us on the water every evening and weekend - -

Mike

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by delphinidae » Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:46 pm

My L Sidewinder salopettes (which are still fine, btw) are a bit on the baggy side, but that's because I'm tall and slim-ish. I don't blame the designers for assuming that people get a bit wider as they get taller, but it makes things a bit awkward for the beanpoles.

(thanks for posting those photos, Mike A)

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by MikeB » Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:12 pm

delphinidae wrote:My L Sidewinder salopettes (which are still fine, btw) are a bit on the baggy side, but that's because I'm tall and slim-ish. I don't blame the designers for assuming that people get a bit wider as they get taller,
Legs like telephone poles? Calves like treetrunks? - I think not - -

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by delphinidae » Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:00 pm

Mine look a bit like MC Hammer pants

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Re: Recommend me some sallys - and a cag - -

Post by Mikebelluk » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:42 pm

I have the Sidewinder combi bib XL too, apparently made for people up to size 15 feet by the length of the socks...
great kit though.

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