Surf....I am dumb

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SwamP
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Surf....I am dumb

Post by SwamP » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:14 pm

OK two pretty basic questions that I'd rather ask and then know than not ask and struggle with.

Neutron - How do I make it faster? I was falling off the back of a lot of waves recently. Am i expecting too much from the boat or is there something that can be done with the fins to increase speed.

Paddling out - In 5ft+ beach break is there any tricks to paddling out other than man up, raise the nose and hit it? I'm doing that just now but when I get my placement and timing wrong I end up in a whole world of beatings...it was very dumpy the other day and I was on my own and was wondering if I'm doing something wrong or is it just scarier when it's biggish, dumpy and lonely?

Sorry, I know these are stupid question but if I've learned one thing from kite surfing it's to ask for short cuts to improvement.

Ta,

Ryan
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TechnoEngineer
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by TechnoEngineer » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:43 pm

1) Try leaning forward to raise your stern - that should prevent you from falling off the wave. Maybe even push your feet down? Lean back to (possibly) get off!

2) Three techniques:
a) Time your run so you don't get hit in the face
b) Deliberately capsize and roll on the other side of it -

c) Something I was taught during my 3-star Surf training - If it's not breaking, approach the wave at about 45 degrees, lean away from the oncoming wave (and lift the knee nearest the wave), reach forward, and blast over the wave with a sweep stroke, throwing your body forwards in an arc from e.g. back right to front left (does that explain it clearly?). I think the idea there is that it's easier to raise an edge than it is to raise the bow. It's a bit like if you're in a playboat that's plowing when you don't want to, in which case you slice the bow up to the surface instead of trying to lift it.
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antbjanne
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by antbjanne » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:47 pm

Positioning too Ryan,if you're coming off the back then you're taking off in the wrong place...too far from the breaking pocket perhaps?
The Neut will take off from a very critical spot and will reward you for it,really "throw" your weight forward...I sometimes lean back momentarily then throw forwards.Little point in discussing fins,trial and error and see what works with your body language:)
As for paddling out,again loads of tiny variations of weight transfer/timing can make a huge difference,though you'll get a kicking experimenting wiv that.What I love,when I get it right is paddling flat oot at a sizeable face,lean right back,big paddle stroke and throw/launch yourself ower the lip...I often make a balls of it an swim but tis good fun...obviously dont attempt that in some nasty huge dumping wave as that might hurt.I'm sure others will be able to advise too.
Tony

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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by TechnoEngineer » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:11 pm

Yes another one is that you may think you're on the wave when you're not quite there and you stop paddling too early - take a few more strokes.
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by storm » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:00 pm

Hi Ryan mayby move the seat foward slightly if possible to get a little more weight over the nose,u culd also raise the seat up slightly,fins will have little effect on take off speed,try smaller outside fins and a regular middle mayby sand the volume out of the base of the fin,ive found this works well.A well timed roll should help with the paddle,but this technique does require a fair bit of practice to perfect.
Hope this is helpful.
Steve

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SwamP
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by SwamP » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:47 pm

Thanks all, this pretty much confirms some things I knew and confirms some things I didn't.

I always thought that a composite boat could take off on more of a swell rather than near the breaking pocket in the way a plastic playboat has to. Obviously this is true of IC boats where as HP boats are more similar to play boats in take off and really come into their own when actually on the wave.

In terms of getting through big dumpy mush, I'll try the timed capsize and see how I get on. I knew there had to be a better option then just going for it.

Thanks all!
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by steddyjames » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:27 am

Ryan P wrote:OK two pretty basic questions that I'd rather ask and then know than not ask and struggle with.

Neutron - How do I make it faster? I was falling off the back of a lot of waves recently. Am I expecting too much from the boat or is there something that can be done with the fins to increase speed.

Paddling out - In 5ft+ beach break is there any tricks to paddling out other than man up, raise the nose and hit it? I'm doing that just now but when I get my placement and timing wrong I end up in a whole world of beatings...it was very dumpy the other day and I was on my own and was wondering if I'm doing something wrong or is it just scarier when it's biggish, dumpy and lonely?

Sorry, I know these are stupid question but if I've learned one thing from kite surfing it's to ask for short cuts to improvement.

Ta,

Ryan
Man up ya big jessie!!!

1 - Catch waves late and take the drop, no falling off the back then...
2 - Take the beating on the paddle back out, it's good for the soul

The fall back option is obviously good techhnique, but where's the fun in that!!

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hoolabloom
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by hoolabloom » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:37 am

Ryan,

Like steddy says take the drop! As for rolling dont bother just get your timing sorted on the paddle out either PLF (Paddle like F) or time it on the inside while the bigger sets come through. Rolling through is so hit or miss its not worth the effort!

If your fancying a surf a bit further south give me and tamsin a shout and we'll catch up.

Dan

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SwamP
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by SwamP » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:47 am

Ha, I am being a big jessie....it just hurts so much when the big bit of water lands on my head :( haha

Ok, will go closer into the beach and catch them later. And will just continue my MTFU, PLF technique for getting through the big ones (so not impressed with that being the best option by the way guys!)

Dan, would love to catch up with you and Tamsin again...really need to set what I'm doing against someone who knows what they're doing!

Hey not sure if you ever saw the pics from that day http://picasaweb.google.com/paschke80/P ... directlink

Will let you know when I head further south than Pease....i.e. Pease tonight and again on Saturday (boat tonight, board on Sat)
Lets not try to understand each other. Thanks.

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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by Kayak-Bloke » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:44 pm

Actually five foot dumping surf is a bloody nightmare to paddle out in!
My local break can get very dumpy and anything over 3ft is a pain (often literally).
If it's really dumpy there's generally no shoulder to speak of anyway and you might be better of down the pub?

I'm the impatient type but often a good long wait and watch, looking for patterns, is the key to getting out.
I've tried the roll under technique in dumping surf and it always goes horribly wrong for me!
I find PLF and a really commiting punch through head on deck paddle really far forward can get you through most things.
Above four ft though it all depends where it breaks in realtion to your boat.

Still you're a playboater too aren't you, aren't back flips fun for you guys?

;-)

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steddyjames
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by steddyjames » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:22 pm

Alternatively go surf some reefs, you don't even need to get your head wet then no matter how big.

If I wasn't at work I'd stick up some photo's of some west of Ireland surf kayaking for a pictorial demonstration!!

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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by PaddyW » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:21 pm

Timing is important when paddling out through surf. Waves tend to arrive in sets of about 7. Paddle as far out towards the break line as possible without entering the impact zone or break line. You will need to paddle to maintain your position, but not hard. As soon as a lull between sets arrives, PLF, for the horizon. Do not stop until you are well outside of the breakline, so that you can catch your breath before selecting the best wave to ride. Wave selection and positioning is the best way to make take offs. Watch good surfers, they are always scanning the horizon for the next set of waves. When a new set arrives you may need to alter your position to be in the best place to take off, (i.e. the steepest part of the wave before if breaks). You want to surf as close to the break as possible in 'the slot' or steepest part of the wave. This is where you will gain the most speed in order to make sections of the wave. Do not waste your time by taking off on waves that are going to 'close out', (i.e. a long section of the wave will break at the same moment), as you will not get a good ride from this type of wave. If the approaching wave is uniformly steep for a long section in front of you then it will 'close out'. Look for waves that have the steepest section in front of you and less steep sections to one or either side. This type of wave will produce a rideable shoulder and will give the best rides.

If the surf is 'blown out' by an onshore wind, paddling out is going to be hard and probably not worth the effort. Instead seek a more sheltered bay where the waves are cleaner. You will then spend more time surfing and less time paddling out and getting nowhere. Local surfers will know where to head when conditions are ruined by an onshore wind. You will be surprised how often you can go from blown out crap to quite nice, albeit smaller and cleaner, waves by just going to another nearby beach which is protected from the prevailing wind.

Conditions are rarely ideal but your choice of surfcraft will be dependent on conditions. If you are using a short tippy waveski or surfkayak or short board that is slow to paddle out, then it will not be a good choice in big conditions, (unless you are on a point/reef break where it is possible to paddle out without bashing through the break line). A longer kakak/waveski or board would be better in these conditions as you can use the extra speed to paddle out and to take off on the less steep waves. If the wind is 'offshore' then the waves will be cleaner and it will be easier to paddle out and easier to take off. The waves will be steeper and hold up for longer due to the offshore wind. 'high performance' surfcraft will perform better in clean surf but will be harder to paddle out and harder to get the speed to take off. Good positioning under the steepest part of the unbroken wave will allow you to take off.

If you do get caught 'inside' on the break line under a big wave that is about the break, rolling under is a good option if paddllng through is not going to work. Alternatively ride the wave in, although you risk a bad wipe out if you mis-time this!

Local knowledge of any 'rip' currents will also help. Watch where the local surfers paddle out. Or ask lifeguards about any 'rip' currents on the beach. Upon arriving at a new surf spot, it is worth just watching for a while to see if you can spot the easiest way out and also where the best and least crowded waves are to be found.

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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by StoneWeasel » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:34 pm

there are a couple of things I do which I was taught by surf legend and thoroughly nice bloke Pete Blenkinsop, now most surf paddlers do this but I think it has become so natural to a lot of the really good guys (Dan included) that they just don't notice they do it any more.

There are four situations when paddling out.

1. The wave is still a green face: Just paddle over it.

2. The wave has collapsed and you are left facing a wall of white water: Paddle at it, just before it reaches you lean back lifting your nose a little (if it is a big wave, you may want to throw your weight forward first to get your nose a bit higher) but the instant that the wave touches your boat throw your weight forward and put in a big power stroke to carry you up and over the white water.

3. The lip is throwing and going to dump on you: Simply throw your weight forward and keep leaning forward as you put in a power stroke, nine times out of ten you will punch through the back of the wave and come out unscathed.

4. You got your timing wrong and the wave has dumped just in front of you or on the front of your boat: Take your beating like a man and try to avoid that situation next time.

Hope you get some good waves dude,

Denzil

P.S. As for the taking off, you can get a wave earlier than in a playboat but no way near as early as in a long boat. The whole lean back a bit as the wave lifts you and then throwing your weight forward at the top of the wave is a useful technique but it is more of a nack than a skill.

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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by Dylp » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:13 pm

this is somthink that i sort of came up with mysealf I am fairly sure that people must have come up with this before but as it dont look like anyone has said anythink about I thourght I would
attempting to duck dive the wave playboating skills may help a bit
as wave approches first empty bowels then try to get nose of the boat in the air
then throw weight back down in an attempt to bury the nose as you do this throw weight around so you are upside down
pull legs towards your body and look around (towards shore) to try and get that nose burried
with any luck the wave will then role over you then simply role up and look smug
this takes a bit of practice but i find it works nicely whan you get it right

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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by SwamP » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:10 am

Went out last night in waves that at their biggest were double over head (in a kayak) from trough to peak. (and at smallest were tiny and non existent)

I specifically aimed for the parts of the wave that were either about to dump on me, just before me or ever so slightly after me.

Top tip was a tricky woo stern pirouette type thing. When I got nailed and the wave wanted to back loop me I kept my right hand paddle in and turned my head round to the right...

End result was either coming out of the break without a beating, upright facing the shore, or still on the wave upright surfing into shore.

I'll continue mucking about.

As for carving diagonally and the whole thing dumping you into the sand; and getting a bad cramp in your quad while paddling out in a bigger set....really not cool!

Cheers all, taking 'everything' folk have mentioned into consideration :o)
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steddyjames
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by steddyjames » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:52 am

Good tips here for paddling out through waves but no mention of rips.....

.....just out of curiosity do you look for them and use them to get out or avoid them?

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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by StoneWeasel » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:01 am

steddyjames wrote:Good tips here for paddling out through waves but no mention of rips.....

.....just out of curiosity do you look for them and use them to get out or avoid them?
I like rips, rips are my friends. Unless I am swimming, then I don't like rips, they're nasty horrible things!

In summery, I use rips to paddle out, they make life easy but don't swim in them as trying to swim out of a rip with a boat full of water is a pain in the arse and no mistake.

Denzil

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steddyjames
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by steddyjames » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:39 am

StoneWeasel wrote:
steddyjames wrote:Good tips here for paddling out through waves but no mention of rips.....

.....just out of curiosity do you look for them and use them to get out or avoid them?
I like rips, rips are my friends. Unless I am swimming, then I don't like rips, they're nasty horrible things!

In summery, I use rips to paddle out, they make life easy but don't swim in them as trying to swim out of a rip with a boat full of water is a pain in the arse and no mistake.

Denzil
That's pretty much my view. I try to find a rip to paddle out because I'd rather be spending time catching waves than battling back out though dumpers.....just don't swim!

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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by antbjanne » Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:22 pm

"Top tip was a tricky woo stern pirouette type thing. When I got nailed and the wave wanted to back loop me I kept my right hand paddle in and turned my head round to the right...

End result was either coming out of the break without a beating, upright facing the shore, or still on the wave upright surfing into shore."

Care to expand on that Ryan? because I've been thinking along these lines yet have no playboating skills at all. As the breaking wave sends you vertical with paddle in on your right say....whaddya do next? Would be handy to gain some sort of recovery trick instead of simply backlooping.

Tony
Tony

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SwamP
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by SwamP » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:14 pm

Hmmm will try to keep it simple, so lets forget the wave and say you're already on your way to being back-looped....

Even before the boat goes vertical my right hand paddle is in the water with an open blade face roughly where my knee is, but placement is instinct (elbow very tight, so as to not dislocate my crappy shoulder).

Now as you sit practicing this in your office, throw your head to the right, over your right hand shoulder, your left hand will follow your head at forehead level. Doing this on its own will at least begin your boat twisting round so as to not land exactly flat upside down.

At a crucial point you need to change what you're doing with your blade. (to me this just happened instinctively, but I do spend a lot of time upside down via playboating...hope it comes instinctively to you too)

The change in blade is basically as follows: as you're well on your way to having your knees get battered over and above your head, and you've done the whole twisty head turny, shoulder twisting thing....the next thing is to change you paddle from being an open blade support, draw type thing, to being a low brace, reverse sweep brace type thing.


Do nothing: get straight back looped landing perfectly flat and but upside down.

Twist body, head and place paddle: get backlooped but end up facing the beach almost on your side.

Twist body, head, place paddle and then change paddle from draw brace to reverse sweep brace: go from straight backloop to backloop to upright.

As always I'm crap at explaining things but hopefully some of this makes sense.

Can't find a great example but 1:42 in this video is pretty close, although on his left hand side.... http://www.youtube.ie/watch?v=0gcs6gp22FI&feature=fvw
Lets not try to understand each other. Thanks.

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hoolabloom
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by hoolabloom » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:54 pm

Ryan

Denzil gives some good tips there in his 4 wave situations.

Like those pics too some good close ups!

Head north from pease if you wanna try some reefs not too far tho.

We're out sunday down our way if i'm not working too hard sat night should be quite size if the forecast holds.

Be good to catch up soon.

Dan

P.s Enjoy the beatings its for sure the best bit of surfing!!!!

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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by antbjanne » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:31 pm

"As always I'm crap at explaining things but hopefully some of this makes sense."

Not at all Ryan,that's a straightforward explanation for a fairly inexperienced paddler like myself to work on and I reckon I can break it down into steps to try and learn it,hopefully without trashing my flaky shoulders too...I'll keep repeating the mantra ...keep elbows in,keep elbows in!
Tony

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warren
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by warren » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:58 pm

Are there any instructonal surf dvd`s .
Ive seen a few play boating and river running but no surf .
Any body know?
Warren

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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by BoaterJH » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:22 pm

steddyjames wrote:
StoneWeasel wrote:
steddyjames wrote:Good tips here for paddling out through waves but no mention of rips.....

.....just out of curiosity do you look for them and use them to get out or avoid them?
I like rips, rips are my friends. Unless I am swimming, then I don't like rips, they're nasty horrible things!

In summery, I use rips to paddle out, they make life easy but don't swim in them as trying to swim out of a rip with a boat full of water is a pain in the arse and no mistake.

Denzil
That's pretty much my view. I try to find a rip to paddle out because I'd rather be spending time catching waves than battling back out though dumpers.....just don't swim!
It is interesting a lot of people have no idea about rips (paddlers and joe public). Often the quickest route out is to hug the cliffs at one end of a beach or to stay close to a break water. I guess it is something people learn through experience of surfing at a break a lot. Or just being confident enough to hop on the conveyor-belt knowing that your not going to get pasted against some nice sharp rocks and you will easily be able to jump off it at the right point and not get carried out across the horizon line!
Joe H

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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by theevilscotsman666 » Sun May 02, 2010 12:56 pm

Cheers weasel for you're 4 situations guide
Thats the info i was looking for :D

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Frosty Jack
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by Frosty Jack » Mon May 24, 2010 9:27 am

There is obvious a lot of surf knowledge here.
I'm probably also preety dumb but always up for some advice. I have a plastic neutron. I can bottom turn , sometimes top turn and do the odd floater not always on purpose.( not the floater you see now and again coming from the sewage outlet)
What size fins should i be using? Where can you get them from any recomendations.
I have some 3.5" plastic fins but they keep breaking by the screw fixing.

Happy for any advice.
Upside Down Blowing Bubles....

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StoneWeasel
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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by StoneWeasel » Mon May 24, 2010 9:59 am

Hey there Frosty,

I'm afraid there is no hard and fast rule of what size fins you should use or what set up you should go for, it is very much a personal preference thing as some people prefer bigger fins for more drive some prefer smaller fins for more looseness, also the heavier you are the more fin you tend to need.

That said, a good set of all round general purpose sort of fins that are as tough as old boots are the Mega nylon composite fins, if you want something a bit bigger then CJB do a very nice set or if you want something smaller then RFC do some nice ones as do True Ames or if you can find them there are the Vince Shay flex fins (smaller than the Mega fins) which I really like and am gutted I smashed mine up (don't surf over rocks with glass fins).

Hope that helps to get you started,

Denzil

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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by Soul Surfer » Mon May 31, 2010 4:49 pm

StoneWeasel wrote:...or if you can find them there are the Vince Shay flex fins (smaller than the Mega fins) which I really like and am gutted I smashed mine up (don't surf over rocks with glass fins)
Hey Denzil,

I have some of these fins that I ordered direct from Murky Waters in Canada. I found Mariola at Murky was very helpful, and the price (including delivery) worked out very favourable due to the exchange rate, but not sure how it would be now..?

I love them too!!! If I remember rightly you need to phone them late afternoon/early evening to allow for the time difference...
People are always afraid of what's different...

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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by Jonny-the-ski » Mon May 31, 2010 5:33 pm

Don't know if this helps:


Not sure if this works for you sit-innit'ers, but this works well for us ski'ers, and is easy to do. Rull under while sinking the nose in the face and let the momentum of the wave flip you back up.

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Re: Surf....I am dumb

Post by Ocean Addicts » Mon May 31, 2010 7:15 pm

Great example Jonny the ski.

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