What's this then?^

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wilsoj2
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Re: What's this then?

Post by wilsoj2 »

MikeB wrote: Now here's a thing. Knoydart no longer seem to make any ref to the Classic on their w/site. It'll be interesting to see if it features in the new Valley offering once their new w/site goes live.
Nor do they list the Avocet LV which is definietely still available and rather popular here. There are a few Valley models not on the Knoydart site. It may simply be a limitation of the site and not reflect which Valley boats are available through Knoydart.

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Re: What's this then?

Post by Sula II »

There has been a lot of mention regarding the built in skeg on the HM, in this and other posts.

Is it that the HS just didn't handle too well at all in quartering seas etc. ?
If you were thinking of buying a second hand HS, would you be well advised to budget for a retro-fit skeg?

I have read the Nordkapp article in the Almanac, which I found very interesting. Although it does not tell me how these 2 boats differed in paddling characteristics. Which is fair enough, as it is probably quite subjective for a factual history of the model.

I paddled an HM many years ago, which I thought was great and I would like to get an old Nordie again, to move on up from my 'returner' touring boat. So a better appreciation of the difference between the two models would be appreciated as I am currently looking for a Nordie in reasonable condition.

Thanks

CP

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MikeB
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Re: What's this then?

Post by MikeB »

Sula II wrote: Is it that the HS just didn't handle too well at all in quartering seas etc. ?
If you were thinking of buying a second hand HS, would you be well advised to budget for a retro-fit skeg?

I have read the Nordkapp article in the Almanac, which I found very interesting. Although it does not tell me how these 2 boats differed in paddling characteristics. Which is fair enough, as it is probably quite subjective for a factual history of the model.
Good point - I've fixed that! The original boats used on the Nordkapp expedition apparantly had a removable skeg - the fixed one was added to the design later. Without the skeg the thing will weathercock.

Now - I'm going to be torn apart here I expect! I'd say "yes" to your question as to whether an HS needs a retro fit skeg (assuming it hasn't got one - most of the later ones will have). There are those (mostly ancient and grizzled, and suffereing a surfeit of boiled seagull) who will insist that a good sea padder doesn't need a skeg. And they may well be right.
I paddled an HM many years ago, which I thought was great and I would like to get an old Nordie again, to move on up from my 'returner' touring boat. So a better appreciation of the difference between the two models would be appreciated as I am currently looking for a Nordie in reasonable condition.

Thanks

CP
Well, as you'll have gathered from the article, it's not just the HS / HM difference - it's the year of the boat as well. Assuming you want one of the originals. You could get one of the modern ones - ah, they all vary as well - - -

Enjoy - Mike.

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wilsoj2
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Re: What's this then?

Post by wilsoj2 »

Here is a photo of a Nordkapp with "HMC" on its foredeck: http://www.paddling.net/photography/gal ... 168&num=23

I know "H" is for hatches, "M" is for modified hull (aka hard stern) and while the 1985 Valley Nordkapp sheet also defines "S" as standard hull, "L" as Large racing style cockpit (aka shalom cockpit), and "R" as ruddered hull, there is not a note as to what "C" indicates.

From the deck configuration and bow, I would guess it is a pre-Jubilee Nordkapp, though the oval rear hatch indicates it is not an especially early' Nordy.

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Re: What's this then?

Post by Jim »

MikeB wrote:Now - I'm going to be torn apart here I expect! I'd say "yes" to your question as to whether an HS needs a retro fit skeg (assuming it hasn't got one - most of the later ones will have). There are those (mostly ancient and grizzled, and suffereing a surfeit of boiled seagull) who will insist that a good sea padder doesn't need a skeg. And they may well be right.
I think you'll survive that one Mike.

My understanding is that on the original Nordkapp expedition (or perhaps in training for if they had removable skegs on it) it was discovered that the original design was a dog in quartering seas. Not sure why the design persisted so long after the HM was developed and before lifting skegs became the norm. The HS would have been easier to mould. The cynic in me wonders if it was marketed as the boat from the expedition without mentioning the handling issues and thus all but the in-crowd would think it was the best boat ever and buy it?

On of the most experienced sea paddlers I know, who is a long standing Nordkapp paddler, won't touch the HS, only HM's or Jubilees with lifting skegs. Ironic that one of the most successful and iconic boats of our time suffered from a design problem from the outset - still it was solved, although many people consider the HM had too much skeg.....

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Re: What's this then?

Post by MikeB »

Ahh - it'll be marketing!

The National Maritime Museum say on their website that the boats which went round Nordkapp had detachable skegs - it was only later that the larger HM skeg was put on in an attempt to make the thing go in a straight line.

I wonder if the "C" doersn't just stand for "Chimp" wilsoj2? I've never heard that designation before though.
Jim wrote: On of the most experienced sea paddlers I know, who is a long standing Nordkapp paddler, won't touch the HS, only HM's or Jubilees with lifting skegs. Ironic that one of the most successful and iconic boats of our time suffered from a design problem from the outset - still it was solved, although many people consider the HM had too much skeg.....
Aye - I just dont get it - these boats were never intended for journeying in the first place.

Mike.

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Re: What's this then?

Post by PeteW »

I have vauge memories from the H/S/R/M/L etc. sort of time that they did a nordkap with a more (then) normal slalom cockpit (pre keyhole) - it was buzzing round my head that that was the C when I saw the first ressurection of the early valley catalog PDF. I was not aware it was about when the oval hatch was though and difficult to tell from the photo. As has been said before less of a desigh more a tribe :-)

Cheers

Pete

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wilsoj2
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Re: What's this then?

Post by wilsoj2 »

I too thought the 'C' was for shalom Cockpit. That is until seeing the 1985 Valley brochure posted here http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/no ... dkapps.pdf

Though impossible to be certain from the angle of the photo, if I had to guess, I would say this particular Nordkapp has an ocean cockpit. If that is the case, maybe it does (on this particular boat) stand for Chimp pump - though I've seen many Valley boats with a chimp pump without a 'C' on deck...

A friend has a classic Pintail that has both a Chimp pump and a day hatch - with no 'C' on deck.

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Re: What's this then?

Post by PeteW »

If my memory serves me correctly the slalom cockpit came in later, before the jubilee, and was not about for long - the cockpit was not a lot bigger than the ocean - nothing like the current keyhole ones - perhaps 6" longer but I agree the photo does not help. I never remember pumps being denoted on the label :-). Where is Frank when you need him to adjudicate?

kayaking archeology... a nice way to distract yourself from the day job

Cheers

Pete

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Re: What's this then?

Post by nickcrowhurst »

wilsoj2 wrote:I too thought the 'C' was for shalom Cockpit.
You might see one of those in Jerusalem......
Nick.

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wilsoj2
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Re: What's this then?

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PeteW wrote:Where is Frank when you need him to adjudicate?

kayaking archeology... a nice way to distract yourself from the day job

Cheers

Pete
It would be wonderful if someone had access to Frank Goodman to answer a number of questions regarding Valley boats. Such as the earlier thread trying to determine the year the Pintail was introduced...

Yes, kayaking archeology is a nice way to take a break from the day job...;-)

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Re: What's this then?

Post by mick m »

the extendid keel line reminds me of the keel of the ice flouw I paddeld for a number of years, a real dog in a following sea it woldent turn when fully loded. I also vagly recall Paul Kaffin on his trip around Australia taking a grinder to the HM keal and fiting a rudder in the erly stages of his trip around He was paddeling a Nordcapp .

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wilsoj2
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Re: What's this then?

Post by wilsoj2 »

mick m wrote: I also vagly recall Paul Kaffin on his trip around Australia taking a grinder to the HM keal and fiting a rudder in the erly stages of his trip around He was paddeling a Nordcapp .
Yup, Caffyn modified his Nordkapp and to this day Sisson http://www.sissonkayaks.co.nz/nordkapp.htm produces a ruddered Nordkapp.

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Re: What's this then?

Post by EK Sydney »

I always think one of the supreme ironies of Australian & NZ paddling and our (slowly crumbling) culture of rudder-based sea kayak designs, is that it sprang from the original HM Nordkapp, which was a tricky proposition for paddlers like Paul Caffyn in following seas. Brian Towell has a classic line in an ad on the QSKC website, trying to sell his antique Nordkapp HM - "Paddles like an absolute bastard, It's tippy, slow, won't turn, and you can't get in or out of it - actually I quite like it and I wouldn't mind if it didn't sell."
When I was in Tassie in February I met Tony Gaiswinkler, who told the story outlined above of how Caffyn sent an SOS for a 'Tasmanian rudder', which Tony had a major hand in designing, after having a bugger of a time controlling his Nordkapp on the journey from Queenscliff to Brisbane. The HM had the 'skeg' which was just an extended keel line, as opposed to the modern retractable version. They sent him one up which was fitted (not too sure if it was the original or a 'modification' of Tony's design), and the journey continued with much more ease for Caffyn with rudder fitted. This spawned several designs in Australia & NZ which were essentially Nordkapps with the stern sewn off & a rudder fitted, and our culture of boat design has evolved that way ever since. The rudder design also reportedly found it's way to Valley and became the C-Trim rudder - it seems to be a bit of sore point in Tassie!

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Re: What's this then?

Post by MikeB »

Sula II wrote:There has been a lot of mention regarding the built in skeg on the HM, in this and other posts.

Is it that the HS just didn't handle too well at all in quartering seas etc. ?
If you were thinking of buying a second hand HS, would you be well advised to budget for a retro-fit skeg?

I have read the Nordkapp article in the Almanac, which I found very interesting. Although it does not tell me how these 2 boats differed in paddling characteristics. Which is fair enough, as it is probably quite subjective for a factual history of the model.

I paddled an HM many years ago, which I thought was great and I would like to get an old Nordie again, to move on up from my 'returner' touring boat. So a better appreciation of the difference between the two models would be appreciated as I am currently looking for a Nordie in reasonable condition.

Thanks

CP
This might interest you - on Sean Morleys website, an article from Paul Caffyn - Clickety.

This is quite telling I think.

"The statistics speak for themselves in showing the benefit gained from the addition of a rudder: Melbourne to Sydney:

HM stern - 30.6 miles per day Sydney to Brisbane
Skeg - 34.3 miles per day Brisbane to Cape York
Rudder - 39.2 miles per day
"

How would he have managed in an original HS (no skeg??)

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Re: What's this then?

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wilsoj2 wrote:I too thought the 'C' was for shalom Cockpit. That is until seeing the 1985 Valley brochure posted here http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/no ... dkapps.pdf

Though impossible to be certain from the angle of the photo, if I had to guess, I would say this particular Nordkapp has an ocean cockpit. If that is the case, maybe it does (on this particular boat) stand for Chimp pump - though I've seen many Valley boats with a chimp pump without a 'C' on deck...

A friend has a classic Pintail that has both a Chimp pump and a day hatch - with no 'C' on deck.
This old "how to choose a sea kayak" article from Atlantic Kayak Tours referecnes the "C" designation in the context of a longer cockpit (see page #10) - so it is the "bigger cockpit" designation.

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Re: What's this then?

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MikeB wrote:This is quite telling I think.

"The statistics speak for themselves in showing the benefit gained from the addition of a rudder: Melbourne to Sydney:

HM stern - 30.6 miles per day Sydney to Brisbane
Skeg - 34.3 miles per day Brisbane to Cape York
Rudder - 39.2 miles per day
"

How would he have managed in an original HS (no skeg??)
How could a rudder make that much difference? Is it because all your paddling energy is directed to making the boat go forward, therefore less directional/correctional strokes?

Chris

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Re: What's this then?

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chris-uk wrote:
How could a rudder make that much difference? Is it because all your paddling energy is directed to making the boat go forward, therefore less directional/correctional strokes?

Chris
Yes

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Re: What's this then?

Post by chris-uk »

Then why is there such hostility toward rudders? I have one on our double, for obvious reasons, but had always considered that I would get a skeg if I get a single. With the distance thing in mind I think I'd get a rudder (especially that very sexy under-stern rudder from Kari-tek!).

Chris

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Re: What's this then?

Post by wilsoj2 »

chris-uk wrote:Then why is there such hostility toward rudders?
Chris
There are a number of reasons many prefer skegs. Among my reasons are:
> the danger rudder mechanisms create in rescues wherin one is often using the stern and rear deck to get either yourself or another back in a boat.
>how much more difficult it is to safely grab a loose boat in surf or conditions if it has a rudder mechanism attached on the stern.
>the liklihood of the rudder mechanism snaring a towline when towing.
>the complex mechanism of many rudders is more prone to failure than a skeg.

Many or all of these may not be a concern when solo paddling a great distance and needing to make good time.

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Re: What's this then?

Post by chris-uk »

wilsoj2 wrote:There are a number of reasons many prefer skegs. Among my reasons are:
> the danger rudder mechanisms create in rescues wherin one is often using the stern and rear deck to get either yourself or another back in a boat.
>how much more difficult it is to safely grab a loose boat in surf or conditions if it has a rudder mechanism attached on the stern.
>the liklihood of the rudder mechanism snaring a towline when towing.
>the complex mechanism of many rudders is more prone to failure than a skeg.
Would the Kari-tek not eliminate most of those concerns, the exception being the complexity issue (though they make some good-looking claims about reliability...)?

Chris

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Re: What's this then?

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chris-uk wrote:Then why is there such hostility toward rudders?
Ah - a nice contentious question! I'll go so far as to suggest that it's cultural / elistist / purist / snobbery - there's an argument to suggest that if Paul Caffyn found it helpful to have a rudder on his mega trip(s), then surley "we" should give it serious consideration?

Even the Aletians used rudders - and they were using boats which were designed for big crossings and serious journeys. But, those boats just dont look as pretty as G/land inspired craft. We had some debate in this previous discussion (I've linked straight to that part of it as it's a much broader discussion - with a lot of other stuff in it.)

Mike

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Re: What's this then?

Post by chris-uk »

Hah, I figured that might be a big part of it; like how some kayak surfers insist on not using fins, even though it limits the type of waves they can surf on, but thats okay 'cos they're doing it the 'right' way!

When I win the Lottery I'll be taking my brand new, all carbon Nordkapp straight to Kari-tek for one of their super-slick rudders, and I don't care who likes it!!! Burn me now ;-)

Thanks for the link Mike,

Chris

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Re: What's this then?

Post by MikeB »

chris-uk wrote:
When I win the Lottery I'll be taking my brand new, all carbon Nordkapp straight to Kari-tek for one of their super-slick rudders, and I don't care who likes it!!! Burn me now ;-)
Oh yes! Heresy! Mind you, I've come across about 4 new Nordy's in the last few years - with rudders. As one of them is paddled by a very competent and experienced paddler who also has some serious boats and paddles with a G/land stick, I think he might have made (his own) informed decision. It's right for him anyway.

Mike

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Re: What's this then?

Post by nickcrowhurst »

I recall that when Sean Morley did his U.K solo circumnavigation, his blog described the enormous seas he endured on the west coast of Wales, IIRC. He said that he did not believe he could have coped if he had been in a kayak without a rudder. Considering his pedigree, that weighs heavily with me.
Nick.

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Re: What's this then?

Post by MikeB »

Brian Wilson said the same about going round Ireland iirc. Mike.

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Re: What's this then?

Post by EK Sydney »

Yes but.....
There is a big difference between serious expedition, goal oriented paddling & what most of us do 98% of the time, which is day paddle, explore, surf, maneuver at close quarters, practice skills etc. A sporty skeg boat is much more conducive to this sort of day/play boating than a longer waterline, rudderred expedition boat. I love the way my rudderred Rapier performs, but if I stuck a rudder on my Aquanaut it would turn into something completely different, and not be anywhere near as much fun. The argument thrown up about rudders here is 'Paul Caffyn used one, and now Freya, so that's what you need when you paddle in Australia.' I'd argue that it's what you need when you paddle AROUND Australia, which is a little bit different......

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Re: What's this then?

Post by MikeB »

A Nordkapp wíth a rudder is the same as a Nordakpp with a skeg, except it has a rudder - so can't quite see where the difference lies - --

Accepting that going round Aus is a significantly more challenging and longer journey, in essence it's the same as going on a series of connected trips - many of which might well be in similar seas.

Mike.

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Re: What's this then?

Post by mick m »

I paddel 2 diferant stile boats, one for expodition stile trips and one for weekend /day paddling , my expodition boat is an Australian Made one its Sweed form hig volume with a combination of round and hard chine , yes it dos have a rudder, but its designd to track strat without one , which it dos , fully loded its realy responsive , the only time I yous the ruder is when sailing , it has 2 sails , and in good conditions going down wind I can trim the sails and lift the rudder. the other boat is a roto mold Aquanort LV with skeg , and it also sails well with the skeg . If I fited properly into an Avoset Id probably have preferd it .
botom line kayaks are designd for diferant things ruders help on realy long trips to keep paddlers with less fatige , skegs still need a help with stering strokes , on day trips low volum skeg or no skeg no rudder are a lot mor fun to paddel

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Re: What's this then?

Post by EK Sydney »

A Nordkapp wíth a rudder is the same as a Nordakpp with a skeg, except it has a rudder - so can't quite see where the difference lies - --
G'day Mike,
My point here is that using a Nordkapp with a rudder, unless you reverse the rudder cables, makes you paddle the boat counter to the intended design. You push with the your right foot to turn right with the rudder, you push & distribute your weight to the left to turn right without a rudder. The beauty of a design like the Nordkapp is lost in the addition of a rudder, but you will most likely put on a few more miles, if that's the thing that is most important to you. I discovered this paddling a SeaBird North Sea last year - a boat with an 'amazing' similarity to a Nordkapp, but with a rudder. Out in some big water, 5m swell & 20kn+ of wind it was a very different experience relying on the rudder, waiting for it to bite in those limbo moments when the stern is free of the water. In the Nordkapp, I would have had a ball. In what was essentially a ruddered Nordkapp, it was a handful & counter intuitive to what I'm used to. Of course I'm revealing more about my own paddling style here than any general rule, but if you ever get the chance, give it a whirl, I reckon you'll see what I mean.
Going around Australia you're not likely to be rock gardening every day, your sole aim would be miles, and as many of them as you can put away each day. Personally, that sort of paddling bores me sh-tless, give me a 20km blast with some surf, rocks, a bit of skills practice & play any day......
Mark.

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