Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak^

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johnb
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Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak^

Post by johnb » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:36 am

This should eat the miles up...
http://www.point65.com/default.asp?page=kayaks&kayak=37
Anybody tried one out yet? Any demo boats in the UK?

I like the idea of fast touring kayaks. We spend pretty much all our time paddling forward in a relatively straight line, so I think a kayak should be oriented to that function. So I wonder how this boat compares to the Epic 18X and the Kirton/Nelo Inuk?...

Why are most sea kayakers so loyal to the more traditional designs?... is it because this class of boat only comes into its own if you are going to paddle reasonably fast (4+ mph?)? Does the long, full waterline length only come into play once you have overcome the potentially larger wetted surface area compared to a shorter boat?

I must admit I like to paddle for fitness, so I like a boat that will reward a bit of effort and go faster, rather than sitting on its backside trying to climb its own bow wave. But then when I'm touring I like the idea of a boat that will go faster for less effort.

tommfuller
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak

Post by tommfuller » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:08 pm

Not tried one, but in a kayak shop in Bergen I was surprised by the proportion of boats of that style. I suppose I shouldn't have been, they are probably ideal for the predominantly flat, sheltered water that is is popular here. Clearly I am assuming that the long waterline makes them a little less sea kindly in more challenging conditions... but I can't really back that up. And by the time you add a rudder it's probably as maneuverable as most without.

"The Hoff" is circumnavigating Australia in a boat like that... http://qajaqunderground.com/my-sponsors/epic-kayaks/

Cheers,

Tom.

johnb
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak

Post by johnb » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:23 pm

These boats are meant to be OK in rougher conditions too. I suspect Freya wouldn't have chosen an Epic 18x if it wasn't suitable for some rougher conditions. She has modified the rudder though since the production version boat has an integral rudder that doesn't seem to have much bite in waves. I wonder if these boats track better and are more or less susceptible to wind problems?...

I have an Epic 18x myself, and I've used it a few times on the sea, but mainly use it for going up and down the local canal to try and keep fit. I have a few issues with it that would mean I'm not comfortable having it as my only boat though, and maybe the XP18 addresses those (that rudder, cockpit a bit big and the hatch design...) but those issues have nothing to do with the general principle of a 18ft kayak with a 18ft waterline that I think is great.

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CaptainSensible
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak

Post by CaptainSensible » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:30 pm

Sexy boat. Nice colour options too (although I'll pass on the pink one).

As I said in a previous discussion about this type of boat (Freya is paddling an Epic 18x), I'm interested in them but I've no idea about their performance in rough conditions.

Last Thursday, I would have easily swapped by Alaw for one of these when I had to paddle straight into the wind for a couple of miles with wind-blown waves causing my boat to slam for most of that section. Slamming can be fun (usually when it's less windy and isn't pissing down), but it gets annoying after a while.

However, I think I would have kept my Alaw when I was playing (or at least attempting to play) in a tidal race last Sunday.

johnb
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak

Post by johnb » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:11 pm

Oops, hadn't seen that discussion. Still the XP18 looks a good addition to the choice of boats in the go faster class.

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maryinoxford
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak

Post by maryinoxford » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:33 pm

johnb wrote:Why are most sea kayakers so loyal to the more traditional designs?...
Because they look nice...
Not in Oxford any more...

johnb
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak

Post by johnb » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:23 pm

Funny thing is I thought the full waterline length boats looked ugly, but now I look at them and see speed, clean lines and elegance...

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CaptainSensible
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak

Post by CaptainSensible » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:40 pm

No need for the 'oops', johnb; I only link to an older thread if there is something on it that I can't be bothered to type again...

I think full waterline boats (Epic 18x, QCC 700x, XP18) look great, but I also think Nordkapps (especially HMs), Skim Distances, and Rockpool boats look nice too. The only thing I really don't like in sea kayak aesthetics/'fashion' is hulls and decks that are not the same colour.

So (apart from looking nice) what is the intended function of extended bows/reduced waterlines in a sea kayak? The obvious answer (to me anyway) is edging etc., but are full waterline boats really difficult to edge/steer without rudders?

(My Alaw looks nice, but one of the things that makes it look nice [the high stern/curved seam] is a nuisance because it makes the boat more likely to weathercock)

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MikeB
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak

Post by MikeB » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:49 pm

CaptainSensible wrote:No need for the 'oops', johnb; I only link to an older thread if there is something on it that I can't be bothered to type again...
Like wise - we touched on astethics and functionality in this discussion a while back - 2nd page, about one third down.
(My Alaw looks nice, but one of the things that makes it look nice [the high stern/curved seam] is a nuisance because it makes the boat more likely to weathercock)
Which is of course probably what the original "designers" / users wanted the things to do - creep up, quietly, downwind, of some sleepy seal prior to doing unpleasant things to it involving a spear.

Today, we want to do completely different things with what is essentially the same core design.

That said, weathercocking = good. Leecocking = bad.

Mike

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CaptainSensible
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak

Post by CaptainSensible » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:08 pm

That said, weathercocking = good. Leecocking = bad.
True. I should have added "when I don't want it to" to that line about my about my boat.

a retro-fitted skeg is on my wishlist, but I'll have to make do with some ballast and my soso edging skills for now
Last edited by CaptainSensible on Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MikeB
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak

Post by MikeB » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:09 pm

I'm tempted to say "skeg" - but I wont - - - -

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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak

Post by johnb » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:40 pm

My Epic 18x seems to respond quite well to leaning. I crossed Weymouth bay in it on saturday in a F3 crosswind (NW?) which was producing fairly small short wavelength chop with the odd small breaker. I think I managed to paddle pretty much all the way across without breaking forward paddling rhythm - the boat was trying to head upwind (weather cock) but I could maintain track by use of the rudder and occasional lean/wider stroke.

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scotty
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak

Post by scotty » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:39 pm

I have the older epic 18 with the standard rudder,i agree with your first post about boat speed,when paddling in company at about 4.5 mph i dont have it any easyer than others but if i am working hard i can get away.It handles fine in rough water and i can surf about 4 foot waves before it starts trying to swap ends,it surfs on small waves and washes easily,turns on edge well,tracks better with out rudder than my plastic capella with skeg down,the bow rides a bit high when empty even with the seat adjusted foreward and wastes a foot of water line on flat water and the rear hatch leaks.
Martin.

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JulesT
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak

Post by JulesT » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:37 pm

I'm looking for a new kayak with more speed for touring and the new XP18 caught my eye also.
An observation: in the world of dinghies, maxi sailing boats, super fast catamarans etc, they seem to have evolved into a similar shape at the bow, ie no overhang.
I've been trying to get a demo in the existing XP but haven't managed to yet; I've tried the canoes-shops.co.uk franchise with no luck - any advice?
Jules

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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak^

Post by tomski » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:56 pm

Brighton Canoes have ex demo XP at £999 at the moment. Might even go cheaper.

UISCEMAC
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak^

Post by UISCEMAC » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:48 pm

Have followed the various posts regarding the new XP18 from point 65n with interest. However has anybody had their arse in one yet ?. I'm intrigued as to whether the spiel that point 65n quote's on their website lives up to reality. Normally as everyone is well aware the faster the boat the greater the loss of primary stability, however they claim that the boat loses none of that stability normally associated with say a sea cruiser.

I would love to try this boat off the Irish coast where that assertion would be put to the test.

So far I haven't yet made the jump to purchasing a composite boat. But I am seriously considering investing in this one. So before I make the very serious financial committment (especially in these trying times), I would like to find someone who has paddled this boat in atlantic conditions......say a nice force 5 to 6 with some lovely driving rain and the wind over the tide....you know normal Irish summer conditions.

Thanking ye in advance for your help. Mac[/size]

swagstaff
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak^

Post by swagstaff » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:34 pm

The Container with the XP18 arrives on the 27th October so should be in http://www.SeaKayakOban.com by early November.
WHITEWATER ALL YEAR LONG

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JulesT
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak^

Post by JulesT » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:41 pm

Thanks swagstaff - have these reached any other countries yet, has anyone seen any reviews anywhere yet of this boat?
Jules

29er
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak^

Post by 29er » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:48 am

A friend of mine just testpaddled the 18 XP. It was in calm conditions, so not a real test - but he liked the ergonomics:) I am going to paddle this kayak on a weekend trip in the end of november, and looks forward to it.

The Epic 18 x is capable of pretty serious conditions. A friend of mine has one, and he paddles the same stuff as I do in my Nordkapp Std, and has no problems with pretty heavy conditions. It is also very fast, another friend with a sprint racing background had no problem getting the 18 x up to 16,6 km. h in a sprint. It also surfs very well if you want to pick up some extra speed when possible:)

The cockpit of the 18 x is outfitted both for traditional sea kayak techniques with the knees out to the side, and for flatwater style with the knees in the middle for a more effective leg use in the forward stroke.

The 18x makes more "splashing" (sorry, I dont know the correct english word for this) when going against steep waves, the Nordkapp just dances in the same waves. I would not trade my Nordkapp for a 18 x as a sea kayak, but I would like to have both:)

Harald

johnb
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak^

Post by johnb » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:21 am

I was racing my Epic a few weeks back and was alongside an Inuk at one point in some choppy 2ft waves. I seemed to get thrown about a bit more than he did - the Inuk seemed to cut through the waves more - I felt as though the Epic was too buoyant (I'm 75kg). Although you can either have your knees out wide or up in the cockpit does mean that I don't feel that secure in it with my short legs (29" inside leg!)... I see Freya has modified her Epic to put in additional thigh braces and I think I would like to do that if I knew how...

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Niall Duncanson
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak^

Post by Niall Duncanson » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:42 pm

My comments here regarding the original XP modelhttp://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/po ... review.htm still stand.

Since writing that piece I have paddled in some very rough water, for instance round Mingulay, and the boat has always performed flawlessly. I have to disagree with any assertion that it is designed for flat water conditions - on the contrary, it is at home in large waves. It is, however, at its best with a large powerful paddler who can make use of the full waterline length and volume.

If I ever hear that this model is discontinued, I will purchase a spare one immediately. It is that good.
Last edited by Niall Duncanson on Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Niall Duncanson

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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak^

Post by 29er » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:43 pm

Niall, I thought this tread was about the new XP 18? http://www.point65.com/default.asp?page=kayaks&kayak=37 It`s meant to be faster and more racing oriented than the original XP:)

Harald

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Niall Duncanson
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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak^

Post by Niall Duncanson » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:11 pm

Spot on 29er thanks. Reading comprehension failure.

Well, looks like I have a new boat to try out in November!
Niall Duncanson

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Re: Point 65 XP18 - fast touring kayak^

Post by swagstaff » Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:35 pm

Its sunny in Oban and force 3/4 gusting 5 and just had a really great paddle in the new XP18 demo. Lots of suprises. It may look like a river racer but certainly performs nothing like it other than a really good turn of speed.(my first "sea kayak" was a river racer in 1978 which I paddle through the Corryvreckan & around Ardnamurchan in fairly interesting conditions which I certainly wouldnt recommend)
Its SOOOOOOOO maneuverable and even in the strongest gusts easily turned up into the wind and without edging lots. The skeg was useful at times but no more than my Tiderace. Super fast downwind as you might expect and yes its stable. I'm 6' and not skinny and found the seat comfortable but for a bigger paddler they have developed a new seat.
Heh its sitting here! So if we are open and you want to try something new, come and give it a shot. Its free for an hours blast around the Bay and no we dont have any for sale at the moment.
WHITEWATER ALL YEAR LONG

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